Marines urinate on dead Taliban

They have two weeks that cover stress and how to cope. I'm not saying it always work I'm just not allowing it to be pushed off on stress. So I had a bad day at work can I tell the judge I was stressed so I punched the cop in the face after he pulled me over?

Sent from my ADR6300
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

While they may not deserve a general level court martial, and firing squad, they certainly do not deserve a medal for this.

They may not have literally been ordered to not urinate on dead Taliban, they were given general instructions about the rules of war and geneva conventions several times. There is also a presumption of common sense that failed several in this group.

Dumb ass behavior (like this) can get people killed in a war zone, and the bad feelings this generated is detrimental to the mission goals, as they surely knew.

The sooner we let this fade away the sooner it can pass... This is pretty far down the list of important shit happening in Afghanistan this month, but apparently all that the western press wants to talk about. Does anybody care about what is really going on over there?

JR
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

Though morally "wrong" these Marines weren't thinking about international politics, public perception, honor, duty, or any of the like. They took out those that were trying to take them out, and as has happened countless times in the history of humanity, celebrated like little kids. They made one mistake, breaking the 12th general order.

I'm noticing a very strong trend even from vets on this subject. REMs and pogues are the most likely to be bitching about it, along with some complaints from those that have been forward deployed in arty, motor t, etc. Even a few riflemen. Find me anything but support from someone from a Recon/ Special Forces/ SEAL team, or especially a Scout/ Sniper. These Marines from Team 4 aren't dropping bombs from 20,000 feet or firing missiles from the sea. They aren't laying down a field of fire or dropping mortar shells. No anonymity, no escape in thinking that it wasn't "their shot." They are looking through a scope and making a conscious decision to kill a living, breathing human being, watching their last breath become a red mist. Military or not, if you haven't been in that position, had that weight on your shoulders, just stop. You have no clue what is on the minds of these Marines, how 2 minutes of acting like 5 year olds and can ease your mind from what you had to do.

Over the past few days I have been suspended for ranting about this subject on 2 message boards. I've kept it short and to the point, and I do not plan on replying further in this post, please feel free to email me if you would like to discuss.
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

Hello,

these Non-comms must be punished. They had taken an oath, and, that oath applies to the conduct of a U.S. Soldier. I can understand the frustrations, the worry and anger of the battlefield had played a part in their pee-party. But, surely those instantaneous feelings were minimized. were forgotten, when the decision was made to post the video.

There should be no honor awarded when involved with a dishonorable act, no matter what the circumstances. I hope that these soldiers are given a fair hearing, but, if found guilty, they should be punished.

Hammer
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

Life is to short to waste more time on judging these troops for their indiscretion. There are folks whose job that actually is.

I am more concerned watching Afghanistan unravel but it was a fool's mission to try to nation build that barren dessert (2009 surge et al) while I think the Chinese are already mining copper there, so somebody may profit some day.

France is talking about accelerating their pullout from there too... and Pakistan is jockeying for influence with the Taliban who are based in Pakistan and will probably end up in charge, after western support for Kabul fades away. We invaded to catch OBL and al-Queada, not fight the Taliban... Mission creep into the ditch.

JR

PS Regarding urination, in that part of the world apparently it matters what direction you face when discharging your meat gun. That is another sin in the minds of some.
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

Two of our soldiers were killed by a member of the Afghan army after " we " mistakenly burned a Koran. Where's the outrage from Hillary and Leon Panetta now? Where's the outrage from all of you who thought our Marines should have been crusified? That was my whole point in starting this thread.I never said what they did was right.My intent was to point out the hypocrosy by some of condeming our guys for making a mistake,but remaining silent when atrosities are committed by the enemies against our own.
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

I don't know why they're so upset Obama apologized. :-( World News - 12 die as Afghan Quran-burning protests resume despite Obama's apology

A recall an old joke where some pundit suggested that they just pain't "I'm Sorry" on the bottom of Air Force One's wings, and fly it around the world to save time.

i've already shared my views on Afghanistan so I won't repeat myself.

Yes the dual standard is yet another thing eroding morale, but not new.

JR
 
Re: Marines urinate on dead Taliban

Two of our soldiers were killed by a member of the Afghan army after " we " mistakenly burned a Koran. Where's the outrage from Hillary and Leon Panetta now? Where's the outrage from all of you who thought our Marines should have been crusified? That was my whole point in starting this thread.I never said what they did was right.My intent was to point out the hypocrosy by some of condeming our guys for making a mistake,but remaining silent when atrosities are committed by the enemies against our own.

Hello,

There's plenty of blame to go around.

The Koran should have not been burnt; they are to be buried when no longer useful. This important point was overlooked, or ignored by those Military leaders in charge of this prison. If one is to "win the hearts and minds" and all that other BS... then, respecting the home team's religious practices (especially in this instance) should've been a priority.

Also, an investigation should have been made into who/when these supposed messages, and threats were written into these Korans. As defacing a Koran is considered an offense punishable by death, the Military should have used this Islamic Law to prosecute those that are found guilty (with the help of local Imams).

History has shown that a Military force cannot beat the home team into a lasting submission. It will work for a brief period when they are demoralized by defeat, but then, those defeated will gain another sense of purpose, a renewed determination to self governing. This "oppressor" will be the rallying point for those inhabitants that could not previously agree on anything.

The only two options for a Foreign Military intending to rule another Nation is to either kill all of the inhabitants or leave.

You question our outrage at Marine's shameful actions? Of Marines being not fit to represent the Uniforms they wear? The last I recall, a Marine had to earn the right to wear his uniform, he took an oath, and that oath implied that he would represent the United States, that he would act only under the Marine Code.

It is terrible that any of our Soldiers are killed, I think it is past the time to bring them all home. This is not a war to be won, there is no winning in this Country, especially when their new leadership do not want us there. Their people do not want us there, for political and religious reasons.

It is terrible when our Soldiers continue to make "mistake" after "mistake". I blame poor Military leadership, poor Political planning, and the resentment of having to be somewhere that these Soldiers, in their hearts, know is a waste of time, money, and American Lives. The resentment and anger is showing, as it had shown in Iraq.

I don't believe that there is any hypocrisy, as the two incidents that you wrote of are not related. Pissing on a corpse is a punishable offense in this Country. The Soldiers should be punished. The afghan soldier that killed the two Americans should be punished, as I'm sure he will.

I will agree with you in regards to lack of outrage from our Elected Officials...where is their outrage? They should be outraged that we still have American Soldiers IN afghanistan. History will show this farse as nothing less than a waste of American money and Lives.

Hammer
 
Re: koran disposal

Hello,

There's plenty of blame to go around.
We agree...
History has shown that a Military force cannot beat the home team into a lasting submission. It will work for a brief period when they are demoralized by defeat, but then, those defeated will gain another sense of purpose, a renewed determination to self governing. This "oppressor" will be the rallying point for those inhabitants that could not previously agree on anything.
There seems to be some disagreement about who the home team is. You seem to be suggesting it isn't the Afghan government, and the Taliban who are actually based in Pakistan are only one of the ethnic populations in Afghanistan.
The only two options for a Foreign Military intending to rule another Nation is to either kill all of the inhabitants or leave.
I don't believe this was ever out intention, stated or otherwise.
It is terrible that any of our Soldiers are killed, I think it is past the time to bring them all home. This is not a war to be won, there is no winning in this Country, especially when their new leadership do not want us there. Their people do not want us there, for political and religious reasons.
Again, who is this new leadership you speak of... Karzai is scrambling to regroup for a future without our army to support his government. He can barely control Kabul, let alone the countryside without our muscle. Opening negotiations with the Taliban and releasing some of their top military fighters from gitmo will further weaken the already weak Kabul government.
It is terrible when our Soldiers continue to make "mistake" after "mistake". I blame poor Military leadership, poor Political planning, and the resentment of having to be somewhere that these Soldiers, in their hearts, know is a waste of time, money, and American Lives. The resentment and anger is showing, as it had shown in Iraq.
Everybody makes mistakes, but it is only our mistakes that the press enjoy playing up, and the opposition uses as a rallying cry. The elephant in the room is that we have already announced that we are pulling out. It is framed by the weakness of that retreat, that things will only get worse. It is sad for the majority of the Afghan people who only want peace, but have known only fighting for multiple generations. After we leave they may get their peace but it will not come with freedom of choice or self rule.
I don't believe that there is any hypocrisy, as the two incidents that you wrote of are not related. Pissing on a corpse is a punishable offense in this Country. The Soldiers should be punished. The afghan soldier that killed the two Americans should be punished, as I'm sure he will.
It is just more evidence of our politically correctness warped judgement when we care more about handling of the corpse than making them corpses in the first place.
I will agree with you in regards to lack of outrage from our Elected Officials...where is their outrage? They should be outraged that we still have American Soldiers IN afghanistan. History will show this farse as nothing less than a waste of American money and Lives.

Hammer

It is shaping up to be a monumental waste, but this is not unusual for this crew. Where is the outrage over the half assed surge? There is a saying that we are always fighting the last war, not the current one, and the surge that worked so well in Iraq, is not the correct strategy for Afghanistan, especially when you don't give your generals the troops and resources they tell you they will need to accomplish that mission.

I am always angry when we choose to fail at any undertaking and this looks like we are planning to fail at this too. While out of political favor, the original strategy that we used to take over Afghanistan with the Northern Alliance and minimal US troops, looks brilliant in hindsight. I'm sure they are already looking for ways to blame this debacle on that former guy... but he didn't ramp up the commitment there over the last few years.

Our failure in afghanistan will weaken our influence in the region, that seems to be in a state of flux right now, in need of some good examples and positive support. Not more, "good luck you're on your own" empty platitudes.

Of course opinions vary, and if we ramp up domestic spending high enough we can't afford to help around the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if everything magically turned peaceful, in our absence.

Do you feel lucky? I don't.

JR

[edit= In an interesting new wrinkle on those Koran... apparently there were secret messages written in them to communicate surreptitiously with other insurgents. That is also considered desecration of the Koran and a sin... Maybe the military should have used sharia law to deal with that infraction instead of destroying the evidence. Interesting when the headline gets it mostly wrong. [/edit]
 
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Re: koran disposal

There seems to be some disagreement about who the home team is. You seem to be suggesting it isn't the Afghan government, and the Taliban who are actually based in Pakistan are only one of the ethnic populations in Afghanistan.

( I'm not suggesting that it is anyone but the Afghan Government... Afghan is not our home, it is their home....which makes it their home Team.)

I don't believe this was ever out intention, stated or otherwise.

(Yes, by being in Afghanistan, "hunting terrorists", we ARE trying to rule their Country. We put Karzai into power, we're helping him to train a Military and Police force (which as everyone can see is futile at best) and helping Karzai form a New Government. We're pulling the strings...I'd call that being the rulers of Afghanistan...)

Again, who is this new leadership you speak of... Karzai is scrambling to regroup for a future without our army to support his government. He can barely control Kabul, let alone the countryside without our muscle. Opening negotiations with the Taliban and releasing some of their top military fighters from gitmo will further weaken the already weak Kabul government.

(See Above.)

Everybody makes mistakes, but it is only our mistakes that the press enjoy playing up, and the opposition uses as a rallying cry. The elephant in the room is that we have already announced that we are pulling out. It is framed by the weakness of that retreat, that things will only get worse. It is sad for the majority of the Afghan people who only want peace, but have known only fighting for multiple generations. After we leave they may get their peace but it will not come with freedom of choice or self rule.

( If the Afghani's want peace, it is their responsibility, not OURS. The U.S. should not meddle in other Country's politics, and, that is not the supposed reason the U.S. went there in the first place...it was to root-out terrorists and terrrorist training camps. (per GWB))

It is just more evidence of our politically correctness warped judgement when we care more about handling of the corpse than making them corpses in the first place.

(NO...it is an idea the goes back many Thousands of Years...to treat Warrior's corpses, even the opposing Warrior's corpses with respect. The Warrior gave the most precious thing he had to give, and that was his life, if he died an Honorable death in battle, his corpse was to be treated Honorably in death.)


It is shaping up to be a monumental waste, but this is not unusual for this crew. Where is the outrage over the half assed surge? There is a saying that we are always fighting the last war, not the current one, and the surge that worked so well in Iraq, is not the correct strategy for Afghanistan, especially when you don't give your generals the troops and resources they tell you they will need to accomplish that mission.

(What resources?...we have the most technically advanced weapons, the supposedly, best trained Military forces and we cannot still get them to behave as our leaders want them... You cannot make people that hate you, hate your life, and hate the majority's religious belief system, love you. )

I am always angry when we choose to fail at any undertaking and this looks like we are planning to fail at this too. While out of political favor, the original strategy that we used to take over Afghanistan with the Northern Alliance and minimal US troops, looks brilliant in hindsight. I'm sure they are already looking for ways to blame this debacle on that former guy... but he didn't ramp up the commitment there over the last few years.

( This undertaking was doomed from the start... the Russians spent many hundreds of thousands of lives in Afghanistan. And, for them it was an all out War...not some half-assed, Nation Building, Rooting-out terrorist mumbo jumbo. The Russians didn't have any so-called factions to help them. People forget, that to these people, their rallying cry is Islam vs Christians .)


Our failure in afghanistan will weaken our influence in the region, that seems to be in a state of flux right now, in need of some good examples and positive support. Not more, "good luck you're on your own" empty platitudes.

(Our failure in Afghanistan will change nothing but the time-line... ending with an Islamic Theocracy selling their Mineral Rights to the highest bidder.)

Of course opinions vary, and if we ramp up domestic spending high enough we can't afford to help around the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if everything magically turned peaceful, in our absence.

Do you feel lucky? I don't.

JR

(Luck in Afghanistan has NO impact on my life... and very little impact on Americans, except those in the Military and their families.)
 
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Re: koran disposal

[edit= In an interesting new wrinkle on those Koran... apparently there were secret messages written in them to communicate surreptitiously with other insurgents. That is also considered desecration of the Koran and a sin... Maybe the military should have used sharia law to deal with that infraction instead of destroying the evidence. Interesting when the headline gets it mostly wrong. [/edit]

Hello,

While it is interesting, it's not a new wrinkle.... that there were supposedly secret messages and death slogans written in these Korans...that information was reported the day the riots started, and was According the the General, that they were to be destroyed....

And...as I posted in my earlier post this morning, these writings should have been investigated and punished via Islamic Law...

Hammer
 
Re: koran disposal

It was news to me, my bad.

Moreover, just this past September 16, 2011, during a PBS interview, Imam Jihad Turk, Director of Religious Affairs, at the Islamic Center of Southern California, provided these pellucid, and succinct directives

When Muslims want to respectfully dispose of a text of the Koran that is no longer usable, we will burn it. So if someone, for example, in their own private collection or library had a text of the Koran that was damaged or that was in disrepair, so the binding was ruined, etc., or it got torn, they might bring it by to the Islamic Center and ask that someone here dispose of it properly if they were unsure how to do that. And what I’ll do is I’ll take it to my fireplace at home and burn it there in the fireplace. So I sort of take the pages out and then burn it to make sure that it gets thoroughly charred and is no longer recognizable as script.

So burning it was not the offense, burning it with other garbage was the insult.

The hypocrisy is the lack of anger toward the perps who defaced the koran in the first place. This seems like a convenient excuse to kill more Americans, and a symptom of the deterioration there, not a simple cause and effect from that one action.

You don't light matches around a puddle of gasoline.

JR
 
Re: koran disposal

It was news to me, my bad.


The hypocrisy is the lack of anger toward the perps who defaced the koran in the first place. This seems like a convenient excuse to kill more Americans, and a symptom of the deterioration there, not a simple cause and effect from that one action.

You don't light matches around a puddle of gasoline.

JR

Hehe...Now yer getting it.

And...maybe it's a tribal thing, maybe it's a sectarian thing, but, from the info I have, burying a Koran is the proper method of disposal..

We've seen this same behavior from children that feel neglected, or the spoiling they'd received from their parents has come to and end... any little mis-step by the parents comes with an over-board reaction. Or when a marriage is on the rocks... a spouse may over react to some real or imagined slight.

There are Afghanis that are waiting for some... other accident, mistake, incident, etc... to beat the drums to rioting.

They don't want us there. We are not welcome. We cannot be assured that anything we do in regards of rooting out terrorists, Taliban, Al Queda, or whomever... is neither lasting, or appropriate. And...the biggest joke is now that we are negotiating with Al Queda...

Hammer
 
Re: koran disposal

Hehe...Now yer getting it.

And...maybe it's a tribal thing, maybe it's a sectarian thing, but, from the info I have, burying a Koran is the proper method of disposal..

We've seen this same behavior from children that feel neglected, or the spoiling they'd received from their parents has come to and end... any little mis-step by the parents comes with an over-board reaction. Or when a marriage is on the rocks... a spouse may over react to some real or imagined slight.

There are Afghanis that are waiting for some... other accident, mistake, incident, etc... to beat the drums to rioting.

They don't want us there. We are not welcome. We cannot be assured that anything we do in regards of rooting out terrorists, Taliban, Al Queda, or whomever... is neither lasting, or appropriate. And...the biggest joke is now that we are negotiating with Al Queda...

Hammer

Yes burying the Koran, wrapped in cloth, is the proper way of disposing of it if, IF they EVER dispose of it. Any bit of paper, scrap, anything with any writings from the Koran are considered sacred and usually kept. They will almost never dispose of ANYTHING with Koran scriptures on it, they will save it forever. According to them a non muslim cannot own or touch and untranslated (arabic) Koran. If you put a Koran down it has to be above you. AKA on a table or on a shelf NOT anywhere below you and never near a bathroom or dirt place. If you must handle a Koran you have to have a clean cloth or brand new gloves that have never been used for anything. My job in Afghanistan is training the ANA (Afghan National Army) to be an army. We train them to shoot, drive, read maps, run convoys, room clearing and anything else a modern army does. I go on missions with them I do what they do. Being there with them through different operations and difficult feats has built a trust, as well as confidence in themselves they they can have some sort of peace. Already since the Koran burnings we have had 2-3 ANA soldiers shoot US forces. Mistakes like burning the Koran do ruin the blocks we've built here. If there were secret messages in them, they should have been passed to some of our muslim allies in the region for proper disposal, with the montoring of US forces. Believe me when I say almost no local cared about the Marines urinating on talibans bodies, they hate them too, the Marines were stupid and not only video taped it but also allowed it to be posted. As US soldiers/marines we are held to a higher standard and this is unacceptable. We are professionals and we are expected to do a very stressful job while maintaining our professional military bearing. As unwelcome as it seems we are here, we have done some good. Attacks have gone from 4-5 times a day, to one or two a month just since ive been here. They now the infrastructure of of paved roads which allows for faster commerce and makes it harder to plant IEDs. There are schools and hospitals. Although sometimes corrupt there is also a standing police force and a standing army that also helps resist terrorists and stabilize the area. Do I think we should be here, absolutely not. I disagree with many of our policies here which I will not discuss on a public forum as a US soldier. I want to be home and I wish everyone else here could be home as well.
 
Re: koran disposal

Hehe...Now yer getting it.
Probably not...
And...maybe it's a tribal thing, maybe it's a sectarian thing, but, from the info I have, burying a Koran is the proper method of disposal..
I'm not sure there would ever be an acceptable way for infidels to handle a Koran. Probably need to be buried in "clean" place as designated by a holy person.. Of course it doesn't even take that much of an excuse for "death to the infidels", who deserve to die just for holding different beliefs.
We've seen this same behavior from children that feel neglected, or the spoiling they'd received from their parents has come to and end... any little mis-step by the parents comes with an over-board reaction. Or when a marriage is on the rocks... a spouse may over react to some real or imagined slight.

There are Afghanis that are waiting for some... other accident, mistake, incident, etc... to beat the drums to rioting.
I don't know that there is a single population we can characterize as "Afghans".

We entered Afghanistan in pursuit of non-Afghans who were based there. Over the course of this, the mission creep has somehow turned this into nation building, of a nation that will never be able to support itself with a conventional central government. Historically Afghanistan has never been more than rest stop on the silk road between east and west. Not enough revenue there to stand up more than rudimentary local areas of control (think warlords).

The vast majority of Afghan civilians just want what we we've been trying to give them "lately", peace and self determination, but this seems impossible as they couldn't support any structure we left behind without either continuous massive international aid, or perhaps an organized drug trade (may be time to legalize heroin so they can have a legal cash crop). As we withdraw the power vacuum will be filled by others with little interest in a larger Afghan nation. War lords will take over the north and Taliban will take over the south (near Pakistan).
They don't want us there. We are not welcome. We cannot be assured that anything we do in regards of rooting out terrorists, Taliban, Al Queda, or whomever... is neither lasting, or appropriate. And...the biggest joke is now that we are negotiating with Al Queda...

Hammer
I believe any negotiations with Al Queda are being done via drones (a whole 'nother issue to inspect thier use, especially in other countries)... We are trying to negotiate with the Taliban. I don't know what reason they have to not just wait us out. We have already telegraphed a retreat. I guess dangling the release of high level Taliban fighters from Gitmo gets them to the table, but I don't see much leverage or benefit from that approach. I sure hope the folks involved are smarter than me, because I don't see it.

JR

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Evan: good luck. Get home safely and soon. I continue to be impressed by the professionalism of modern soldiers, and their adaptability to deal with missions far more complex than simple ballistic warfare. Please know that the American public supports you, even as the mission is more than a little tangled up (snafu).
 
Re: koran disposal

I don't know what reason they have to not just wait us out. We have already telegraphed a retreat.
======

Evan: good luck. Get home safely and soon. I continue to be impressed by the professionalism of modern soldiers, and their adaptability to deal with missions far more complex than simple ballistic warfare. Please know that the American public supports you, even as the mission is more than a little tangled up (snafu).

John, I suppose this is what they are doing. Its been my thought/opinion for a few months that they are just stockpiling and waiting for us to leave. Once we leave they have control again. Its literally that easy. Right now the terrorist attacks are just reminders to the Afghans that they are not defeated, they still have power and they still are here. Instilling fear in the locals, a little fear does amazing things to populations.

Thanks for your support John, Our soldiers are professionals and it only takes one mistake, or one soldier to miss behave to ruin our reputation.







Evan,

Keep your head down, stay safe, and we await the time when we can welcome you home.

Thank You.

Charlie Zureki

Thanks for the support as well Charlie! Luckily I have a cool enough mission here to where I actually go out and do stuff, but at times im able to hop online and read up on the forums.