Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

brian maddox said:
okay, this collection gets the 'don't you wish your bookshelf was hot like me' award!
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I have to agree.

The Complete Calvin and Hobbes, McCarthy on sound system design and TWO Massad Ayoob titles. After reading this shelf of books Bennett can perfect your rig, take the bad guys out and understand the wonder and mystery of life all at the same time.

For you younger guys, these "book" things is what we used to use to retrieve knowledge before iPads and the Internet.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Eric Cagle said:
I actually thought the comment was brilliant. I emailed myself a copy so I have it handy when I need a good laugh or to remind myself to back up to a mirror every now and then to check myself for consumption. I want to nominate Bennett's response with the picture as "Post of the month." I saw the "this thread is now" part and thought it was going to say "locked" like in the old PSW days. When I scrolled down I laughed my ass off.

Hopefully Tim will continue to respond to this thread as well. Despite his slant on the issue he has some intelligent and interesting insights on the original post. Actually it is his slant that gives us another perspective.

-Eric
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Tim Trace, myself and another Tim revoked Mr. Duffin's first name a couple of PSW forums ago. We have amazing super powers! ;)

Kidding aside, I've seen all of the predatory practices he's mentioned although not all in our production world. About 15 years ago we had a competitor call up and say "I'll give away shows so you guys can't work." Our reply was "I hope you got an early start." About 3 years later he was out of business, and he'd inherited most of the work that was left behind when a growing regional provider hooked up with fat kid from Stillwater and moved to Nashville. His emotions and some bad employee decisions sank his company. We're still here.

A couple of years ago we had a new twist on this, a firm moved to our "big city". Headed by a fellow with deep pockets and a lot of desire, they'd manged to bring down the value of the regional market by 30%. It's slowly coming back up as they've either found other clients or are pursuing other aspects of production. Our response was to double down on our gear and people. We're still here.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Lee Brenkman said:
The Complete Calvin and Hobbes, McCarthy on sound system design and TWO Massad Ayoob titles. After reading this shelf of books Bennett can perfect your rig, take the bad guys out and understand the wonder and mystery of life all at the same time.
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Heh... they're not all such gems, though. I have a lot of gun books that I acquired trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Just because they're gun people (or writers) doesn't mean they "get it". Or get how to write a book accessible to people who aren't part of the culture. My copy of Unintended Consequences is out with a friend, of course, or it would be taking prime bookstop position next to Messrs. Hobbes, Calvin, and Shakespeare.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim McCulloch said:
Tim Trace, myself and another Tim revoked Mr. Duffin's first name a couple of PSW forums ago. We have amazing super powers! ;)

Kidding aside, I've seen all of the predatory practices he's mentioned although not all in our production world. About 15 years ago we had a competitor call up and say "I'll give away shows so you guys can't work." Our reply was "I hope you got an early start." About 3 years later he was out of business, and he'd inherited most of the work that was left behind when a growing regional provider hooked up with fat kid from Stillwater and moved to Nashville. His emotions and some bad employee decisions sank his company. We're still here.

A couple of years ago we had a new twist on this, a firm moved to our "big city". Headed by a fellow with deep pockets and a lot of desire, they'd manged to bring down the value of the regional market by 30%. It's slowly coming back up as they've either found other clients or are pursuing other aspects of production. Our response was to double down on our gear and people. We're still here.
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I have seen most of that stuff as well and like you and your company, I have never let it stop me. No one company usually gets all of the gigs anyway even if they are offering to do them for free. Most of the people in municipalities who make the decisions for hiring production know it is their butt that is on the line if there is a problem. It is not their money they are spending but it is their job they will be losing if things do not go well. I am here for the long term and my clients know that. Yes it is often hard to get a foot in the door but once you are in it is just as hard for someone else to take your place if you do your job well. I would also suggest to everyone making friends with another provider or two in your area that does great work because if you do a really good job the chances are very good that you will be booked beyond your capacity many times before you add additional equipment to your inventory. I have the gentleman's agreement with my friendly competitors that If I am on your gig I represent you and If you are on my gig you represent me. The result is we all work more and we all get to try out different equipment.

On another note, you guys should start the all Tim thread!

-Eric "Tim" (not really) Cagle
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

I am going to offer the other side of this.

As a former sound company owner that made a very decent living at it through a lot of hard work but had no dellusions about anything above B list at the very best and no major touring action on the horizon at the time because I knew the limits of what we could do. And, believe it or not, for every huge rig out there on a tour, I bet each and every one of those companies have 4 waaaay smaller rigs out and about making the real money. That is right....I said it......the smaller stuff will actually make you more money in the long run.

Now let's look at some other factors.

- Remember, this is a SERVICE industry. Half the time I am far less concerned about what is hanging in the air, what is powering it, and what is driving it. One can overlook a lot of stuff if the guys you are dealing with know their shit, aren't assholes, and can work together to make it a good day. That means an awful lot when you step off the bus in the morning. Not wanting to fire everyone by lunch is an all around good vibe to have on a show. Trust me on this.

- The big national touring folks got there with a lot of hard work, strategic relationships, and having the right people to do the job. Once again, it usually isn't about the gear and how big of a pile of the latest and greatest one has.

- Get along with the bigger companies and similar sized providers in your area. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours tends to go a helluva long way out there as well. Good working relationships with your neighbors can put some extra $$ in your pocket. Don't think of it as searching for their hand me downs. It is a two way street. There may be shows that you can't do, but sure as hell can be a general contrator on, and vice versa.

- It is unfortunate that you are bitter Tim D. I see that has carried you through nicely over the years from the time everyone repeatedly hammered on you at PSW. Let us know in a while how that works out for you. Remember, as myself and others have said previously, a lot of the time it isn't what you know, it is who you know and how you treat them. If I happen to tour through your area, based on what I have read and chatted with others over the years, I would probably be inclined to spec someone like Raul over you (As an example), purely on attitude. Nowdays in this highly connected and easily accessable world that we all live in, these are the things one also needs to think about.

Little food for thought on the matter.


And as a Complete Calvin and Hobbes collection owner myself, Bennet I applaud you with your taste in comic choices. I still long await a similarily packaged collection of The Far Side to park right next to mine.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim Duffin said:
By the way, I read the bio for rat sound. It sounds like the "x" factor in that case was that they EXISTED AT ALL in the early 80's. Its easy to be successful at sound when you are literally the only tour sound company in the entire state at the time and you make your own stuff.
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Tim, I remember when Rat started. There were plenty of local providers at the same level at that time. This is Los Angeles after all, not some Podunk town with no choice of providers. What set Rat apart from everyone else was the insatiable desire to constantly improve their gear and take gigs others wouldn't. I can't recall a time for nearly 20 years from the early 80s where Dave & Brian weren't designing a new system, improving monitors, or refining array techniques. But the main thing that set them apart from everyone else is that they were enthusiastic, very friendly, and willing to take on challenges. This is how they were able to go up against the larger providers over time like A1, Showco, Clair, etc. Your attitude appears to be the polar opposite of what made Rat successful from the very first post of yours that I read several years back. For that reason, you will never achieve the same level of success even if you have $2M to purchase the best PA money can buy. As others have said, it's not the gear, it's the company & the attitude.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Greg Cameron said:
Your attitude appears to be the polar opposite of what made Rat successful .
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And everybody else. But people can believe what they want-no matter if it is right or wrong.

I'm still waiting for the names of companies who are doing A level acts who have bought theirselves in. TIM?????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Justice C. Bigler said:
[snip]

There are lots of jobs working for municipal, education, non-profit, and for profit event and performing arts centers out there that provide a steady and stable living for many people. And sometimes we get to work on some cool and exciting shows (but most of the time it's hum-drum boring or downright aggravating).
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I don't know if we're cool or exciting but I can be pretty sure you'll have at least one very easy week this month.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

brian maddox said:
as have i. in fact, steve and i may even be thinking of some of the same ones... :)

fact is, this is a tough business to get into, and to make money in. it's very competitive, and requires very significant investment. if you aren't in it because you can't envision yourself doing anything else, you're probably not gonna succeed long term, regardless of your 'x factor'.

i for one decided long ago that 'the gear business' was not for me. i did perfectly well as a freelance engineer and i've now moved on to [been put out to] greener pastures. i have no regrets. i knew i wasn't cut out to slog it out with the big boys and contented myself with being the 'ranch hand'. not everybody wants or needs to own the farm...
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+1

There also seems to be some confusion in this thread (or at least on my part) as to whether we are talking about the providers that are getting the contracts for large tours or the engineers and technicians that are staffing the tours. I fail to see any real correlation between the guys that are actually on the road and the guys that own the gear. I don't do giant rock and roll tours but I do travel around with a 7 figure PA. I know plenty of guys from the shop that provides our gear. I know our account managers and sales reps. Buy I've barely even met any of the people that actually own that gear much less seen any of them on the road.
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

I have since moved on to a real industry. I'm sorry I don't have time to indulge the forum members with tales of minutia related to the sound business. If I was still doing sound, I would probably care more. I did notice, however, that all of the name calling and crying that took place in the other forum which was directed at me actually got me more gigs based me "being that guy" from the forums who "stood up to all those [expletive deleted]."

At my last full time AV gig, I came upon an understanding of the true nature of the tour/high end AV industry. It was simply my intent to share it with people who are not trapped in a self-reinforcing mass delusion that they can rise to the top of the world just by "working hard" or doing some other nonsense found in 'get rich quick' books. The sound business contains a duality that assists in the elucidation of the lives of the people participating in it. Some use it to feel special, some use it to get laid, some use it to fulfill some emotional attachment to the touring culture or to fill a hole in ones otherwise irrelevant life. The sound industry is not and has never been an appurtenance of any economic model from a purely dollars and sense standpoint. This self reinforcing histrionic existence makes it impossible for people doing sound to entirely separate their emotional needs from the business (or should I say obsession) they continue to seek within the sound industry.

nevertheless, good luck displacing Clair Bros by "working hard" 8)~:cool:~:cool:
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

andrew gissing said:
What tours have ADR gear on them?

Andrew
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As the owner of the largest stock of ADR boxes in the US, (112 of our 164 boxes) I would be more than happy to provide artist and tour info by email to anyone interested. A couple of minutes on google and or facebook may open a few eyes as well.

Hey Tim, does starting in this business working with hardcore punk bands in basements while living in squats/ vans/ bumming with friends in the mid 80s count as self built?

Bennett has busted ass to get where he is as well. Nuff said...
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim Duffin said:
I have since moved on to a real industry. I'm sorry I don't have time to indulge the forum members with tales of minutia related to the sound business. If I was still doing sound, I would probably care more. I did notice, however, that all of the name calling and crying that took place in the other forum which was directed at me actually got me more gigs based me "being that guy" from the forums who "stood up to all those [expletive deleted]."

At my last full time AV gig, I came upon an understanding of the true nature of the tour/high end AV industry. It was simply my intent to share it with people who are not trapped in a self-reinforcing mass delusion that they can rise to the top of the world just by "working hard" or doing some other nonsense found in 'get rich quick' books. The sound business contains a duality that assists in the elucidation of the lives of the people participating in it. Some use it to feel special, some use it to get laid, some use it to fulfill some emotional attachment to the touring culture or to fill a hole in ones otherwise irrelevant life. The sound industry is not and has never been an appurtenance of any economic model from a purely dollars and sense standpoint. This self reinforcing histrionic existence makes it impossible for people doing sound to entirely separate their emotional needs from the business (or should I say obsession) they continue to seek within the sound industry.

nevertheless, good luck displacing Clair Bros by "working hard" 8)~:cool:~:cool:
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You or I will no more displace Clair Bros than Tesla Motors will displace Ford, but that's not the point unless you started out in business to be pleased only with taking down the #1 company in whatever industry. In that case you set yourself up for failure, as it's unlikely that *any* startup will displace the #1 in a short time span.

Clair, specifically, got where they are by providing a service that customers were willing to pay for. When off-the-shelf products would not deliver the level of service Gene & Roy wanted to provide they hired whatever skills and knowledge they didn't already posses and created what was needed. You may see that as buying ones way in, but when you're on the ground floor of an emerging industry you spend your own money, borrowed money, and investor money to develop that industry. Many firms that do so, fail spectacularly.

I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, your penis stepped on, or whatever the hell happened to make you such a bitter and angry person... and I hope you find more contentment in whatever it is you're doing now. In the mean time, let me tell you what really sucks... what really sucks is burying an employee who died many years too early, just a year or 2 after we buried his 21 year old son, also an employee. In the grand scheme of things, your professional inconvenience and frustration means very, very little.

Good luck, but don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

Tim Mc
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Tim Duffin said:
I have since moved on to a real industry. I'm sorry I don't have time to indulge the forum members with tales of minutia related to the sound business. If I was still doing sound, I would probably care more. I did notice, however, that all of the name calling and crying that took place in the other forum which was directed at me actually got me more gigs based me "being that guy" from the forums who "stood up to all those [expletive deleted]."

At my last full time AV gig, I came upon an understanding of the true nature of the tour/high end AV industry. It was simply my intent to share it with people who are not trapped in a self-reinforcing mass delusion that they can rise to the top of the world just by "working hard" or doing some other nonsense found in 'get rich quick' books. The sound business contains a duality that assists in the elucidation of the lives of the people participating in it. Some use it to feel special, some use it to get laid, some use it to fulfill some emotional attachment to the touring culture or to fill a hole in ones otherwise irrelevant life. The sound industry is not and has never been an appurtenance of any economic model from a purely dollars and sense standpoint. This self reinforcing histrionic existence makes it impossible for people doing sound to entirely separate their emotional needs from the business (or should I say obsession) they continue to seek within the sound industry.

nevertheless, good luck displacing Clair Bros by "working hard" 8)~:cool:~:cool:
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wow. i haven't seen this level of onanistic palavering in quite a while...
 
Your comparison to hard work to get rich quick schemes make me believe you are in a delusion about yourself and what has been said here. You also try to bolster your argument based purely on "standing up to people" I'm all for that except when standing up to people is actually just bringing your own warped feelings and claiming all others as arrogant or false without providing any factual evidence to support your ideas. Your standing up is more like standing on a box yelling about the end of the world.

Sent from my ADR6300
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Don't feed the troll, while he did make a few substantive points, he laced it with enough bait to stir up the expected emotional responses.

drive through..

JR
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

brian maddox said:
wow. i haven't seen this level of onanistic palavering in quite a while...
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I love this forum. Not only can I learn a thing or two about sound, I get some really great words to add to my vocabulary.

On an interesting note, Wikipedia is blacked out today to oppose SOPA so I will have to look up the definitions tomorrow :)
 
Re: Getting the gig. Where did it all start?

Eric Cagle said:
I love this forum. Not only can I learn a thing or two about sound, I get some really great words to add to my vocabulary.

On an interesting note, Wikipedia is blacked out today to oppose SOPA so I will have to look up the definitions tomorrow :)
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I get the "onanistic". It's the palavering that stumped me. Merriam-Webster is on line today....
 
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