What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

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Nathan DePaulo

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Apr 3, 2011
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Most of the time I'm providing sound for bar bands in 200ish occupancy bars. I currently have 3 systems of dissimilar tops & subs, so i'm looking to find a cohesive solution (i.e. 6 identical tops & 6 subs).

My goals are to have a one sub & top per side stack that can cover a loud rock band in a medium sized bar. Then have those same cabinets array nicely in a 3 top/ 3 sub per side config. For the occasional larger outdoor event, that are coming up a little more often these days.

My current mains are 4 Radian RPX215 & 2 JBL MRX525 (loaded w/ all B&C drivers). I'm happy with the sound quality and output of the Radians, but their 90* dispersion makes them a less than excellent choice for 3 per side operation. My subs are 2 Radian RPS218, 2 Yorkville LS1208b, 2 JBL SRX728. All great subs, but I like favor the LS1208b's for the sens.


One option I considered is EV X-Array Xf & Xb. I see them fairly well priced, and the 60x40 dispersion is appealing. So is the obscenely high sensitivity. I'm concerned the subs might not keep up in a 1 for 1 ratio, and they look a little small.

What do you have for me?

Please forgive the cross post from the other forum.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Nathan DePaulo said:
Most of the time I'm providing sound for bar bands in 200ish occupancy bars. I currently have 3 systems of dissimilar tops & subs, so i'm looking to find a cohesive solution (i.e. 6 identical tops & 6 subs).

My goals are to have a one sub & top per side stack that can cover a loud rock band in a medium sized bar. Then have those same cabinets array nicely in a 3 top/ 3 sub per side config. For the occasional larger outdoor event, that are coming up a little more often these days.

My current mains are 4 Radian RPX215 & 2 JBL MRX525 (loaded w/ all B&C drivers). I'm happy with the sound quality and output of the Radians, but their 90* dispersion makes them a less than excellent choice for 3 per side operation. My subs are 2 Radian RPS218, 2 Yorkville LS1208b, 2 JBL SRX728. All great subs, but I like favor the LS1208b's for the sens.


One option I considered is EV X-Array Xf & Xb. I see them fairly well priced, and the 60x40 dispersion is appealing. So is the obscenely high sensitivity. I'm concerned the subs might not keep up in a 1 for 1 ratio, and they look a little small.

What do you have for me?

Please forgive the cross post from the other forum.
Click to expand...


Hi Nathan,

How large of a venue/audience size are you looking to cover with the combined rig?

There are probably many guys here that do something similar with EV QRX212's or SRX722's. They most likely only would go 2-wide in the larger configuration though.

3-wide arrays would take a pretty narrow horizontal dispersion box--which usually puts you in a different league of options and price points. I'm thinking KF650's, SH46's, etc. We're happy Danley SH46 users ourselves. They would absolutely kill it in a bar situation and have plenty of gas to run outdoors on the larger gigs. The downside is that they're probably as heavy or heavier than your Radian boxes and need properly elevated or flown.

If you don't need as much horsepower in terms of SPL, something like the SM60F may be just what you're looking for. A block of four, in a 2x2 configuration, should make a reasonably potent and fairly well behaved array for larger events. The small boxes can easily be split into multiple rigs/configurations and would be easy to get high in a bar on some crank-up stands.

Jeff
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Jeffrey Knorr said:
How large of a venue/audience size are you looking to cover with the combined rig?
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

I'd like my brass ring to be 1000 people outdoors, rock band volume. Which I think I could easily do, or exceed, with the Danley or EAW's you mentioned. Both boxes I've considered at one time or another, when not looking too hard at price tags.

Have you used the SH46 in single situations? Do you feel that the 40* pattern drops off too quickly for bar sized rooms? I'd say 60' wide rooms with 30' wide stages. Although that's just an example, because obviously each room is a little different.

Nate
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Unless you really need ~160-180 degree horizontal coverage, there aren't any trap boxes that will array nicely 3 wide, yet also work well individually (assuming that you need minimum 60 degrees horizontal coverage). Vertical arrays are a different story, but I'm not convinced that a single array element will work all that well for smaller gigs. A 60x40 box with a rotatable horn might be a good option, though.

In a perfect world, you'd use arrays to gain a broader coverage area. The additional output comes from using higher output, tighter pattern speakers.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Rob Timmerman said:
Unless you really need ~160-180 degree horizontal coverage, there aren't any trap boxes that will array nicely 3 wide, yet also work well individually (assuming that you need minimum 60 degrees horizontal coverage). Vertical arrays are a different story, but I'm not convinced that a single array element will work all that well for smaller gigs. A 60x40 box with a rotatable horn might be a good option, though.

In a perfect world, you'd use arrays to gain a broader coverage area. The additional output comes from using higher output, tighter pattern speakers.
Click to expand...
The problem that most people overlook with "rotatable" horns is that the horns are often very small (at least compared to the size they should be).

So yes you can rotate the horn-but how much will the actual pattern change-vs the freq. So only the high freq will be affected by flipping the horn. So assuming a 40° pattern on a horn that is 15" wide (which is probably larger than most horns that are "rotateable" -in the 40° side, the pattern control will be affected down to around 1600Hz. As the size of the horn get smaller the effective freq goes up. So probably in most cases the effective freq is 2-3Khz (or higher).

So what people "think" is happening is not really what is happening-at least over as wide a freq range as they would like to think.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

The EV Xarray stuff is quality kit, but you're right in the assumption that one xb will not be enough. The xb is more considered a low box to be used with the xf's mid-hi drivers. All of that would then be used with x-subs.

One thing that I've seen done is to use 3 wide SRX tops (725's in this case, that's all I see around here) and stack them where 2 tops cover the majority of the space and then flip the inside one upside-down to cover right in front of the stage. If you power that inside box separately and turn it down a bunch it won't mess with the other 2 boxes too much.

This of course assumes that you'll be getting these boxes way up in the air. A triple stack of 728's would do it. That would leave you with a 2 over 3 per side with a matching front fill. You could do a good sized show with that IF powered properly. I bet 1500-2000 waterbags would enjoy that rig.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Ivan Beaver said:
The problem that most people overlook with "rotatable" horns is that the horns are often very small (at least compared to the size they should be).

So yes you can rotate the horn-but how much will the actual pattern change-vs the freq. So only the high freq will be affected by flipping the horn. So assuming a 40° pattern on a horn that is 15" wide (which is probably larger than most horns that are "rotateable" -in the 40° side, the pattern control will be affected down to around 1600Hz. As the size of the horn get smaller the effective freq goes up. So probably in most cases the effective freq is 2-3Khz (or higher).

So what people "think" is happening is not really what is happening-at least over as wide a freq range as they would like to think.
Click to expand...

True, but pattern control only to 2k may be fine for reducing interactions between adjacent boxes.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Rob Timmerman said:
True, but pattern control only to 2k may be fine for reducing interactions between adjacent boxes.
Click to expand...

Not sure how you could figure that, 2k and up is out of a lot of the critical range for human voice. I've got horns in my Danley SPL Triks that are good down to 350hz or so-one of the reasons I can get away covering a 650 seat theater with them, as the amount of articular sound hitting people is higher.

Best regards,

John
 
Just got finished with a cheerleading competition using our jbl vp 7315/64d. We were using 2 per side flown to cover the audience with prx615s to cover the mat. I was impressed with how good they sound, and they had very even coverage. We also did an event called dance marathon earlier this week where they were run ground stacked on subs one per side and they did an excellect job of covering the dance floor. They were pushed hard by the djs playing at this event and handled it with ease.

If they are in your price range, they are definately worth a look.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

John Halliburton said:
Not sure how you could figure that, 2k and up is out of a lot of the critical range for human voice. I've got horns in my Danley SPL Triks that are good down to 350hz or so-one of the reasons I can get away covering a 650 seat theater with them, as the amount of articular sound hitting people is higher.

Best regards,

John
Click to expand...
I said "reducing interactions" not "eliminating interactions". No question that better pattern control is a good thing. But given the choice between a 60 degree pattern at 2k and a 40 degree pattern at 2k, I'll take the 40 degree if I'm arraying the boxes 3-wide. For the same (undersized) 60x40 horn, we're not talking a huge increase in beamwidth at 1k between the 60 degree and 40 degree patterns.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Rob Timmerman said:
I said "reducing interactions" not "eliminating interactions". No question that better pattern control is a good thing. But given the choice between a 60 degree pattern at 2k and a 40 degree pattern at 2k, I'll take the 40 degree if I'm arraying the boxes 3-wide. For the same (undersized) 60x40 horn, we're not talking a huge increase in beamwidth at 1k between the 60 degree and 40 degree patterns.
Click to expand...

Without considering what the rest of the speaker system is comprised of, you may have just added more comb filtering issues to the final rig.

I'd at least consider two 60 degree horns with 15" drivers for mids/lows before three 40 degree horns with 12" or 15" woofers, as long as I could get the acoustic horsepower out of the pair that I needed.

Even three 15" woofers hanging tightly together will have unavoidable comb issues, as the beamwidth is still around 60 degrees at the typical crossover frequency range used to mate them to a HF horn combo.

Best regards,

John
 
Turbosound Aspect Wides?

You like whar you know...

Sound good by themselves and array beautifully.

Depends on budget of course...

Jason
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Charles Harrigan said:
Just got finished with a cheerleading competition using our jbl vp 7315/64d. We were using 2 per side flown to cover the audience with prx615s to cover the mat. I was impressed with how good they sound, and they had very even coverage. We also did an event called dance marathon earlier this week where they were run ground stacked on subs one per side and they did an excellect job of covering the dance floor. They were pushed hard by the djs playing at this event and handled it with ease.

If they are in your price range, they are definately worth a look.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL
Click to expand...



Since your tops are powered, I assume your subs are too? If I may, what subs were you using?

Thanks, Rob
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Hey Nathan
For a budget minded rig consider EAW LA460/LA128. I like my LA128z subs and and a pair covers most all of the bars you're doing. If you used those combined with the LA460 tops (60*) you could get 120* with 2 tops and use the third one for front of stage like Tim mentioned with the JBLs. That and they'll look pretty with your microwedges :)

Down side is they're trap subs.


EAW: LA128z
EAW: LA460
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Jeff Williams said:
Hey Nathan
For a budget minded rig consider EAW LA460/LA128. I like my LA128z subs and and a pair covers most all of the bars you're doing. If you used those combined with the LA460 tops (60*) you could get 120* with 2 tops and use the third one for front of stage like Tim mentioned with the JBLs. That and they'll look pretty with your microwedges :)

Down side is they're trap subs.


EAW: LA128z
EAW: LA460
Click to expand...



I'd probably go for the LA400 subs. They are smaller, lighter, and more efficient. Downsides are that you need more of them to play deep, stacking height, 1 per side doesn't work all that well.

The LA460 is a decent cabinet although it's heavy.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Tim Weaver said:
I'd probably go for the LA400 subs. They are smaller, lighter, and more efficient. Downsides are that you need more of them to play deep, stacking height, 1 per side doesn't work all that well.

The LA460 is a decent cabinet although it's heavy.
Click to expand...

The 400 would match the 460 better and I agree in a 3 on 3 situation, but separated into 3 rigs a pair of 400s likely won't cut it.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Jason Misterka said:
Turbosound Aspect Wides?

You like whar you know...

Sound good by themselves and array beautifully.

Depends on budget of course...

Jason
Click to expand...

I have been watching this thread and thinking Aspect Wides but hesitated jumping in because sometimes I feel like such the fan boy...but since Jason opened the door. :)
50 degree horizontal pattern is a pretty good compromise between too wide and too narrow. On or two per side for most indoor situations. You can go three wide on outdoor
gigs where you need 150 degree coverage. The Aspect Wides are very nice sounding box that will get pretty darn loud, and as Jason said, they array beautifully.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Steve Payne said:
I have been watching this thread and thinking Aspect Wides but hesitated jumping in because sometimes I feel like such the fan boy...but since Jason opened the door. :)
50 degree horizontal pattern is a pretty good compromise between too wide and too narrow. On or two per side for most indoor situations. You can go three wide on outdoor
gigs where you need 150 degree coverage. The Aspect Wides are very nice sounding box that will get pretty darn loud, and as Jason said, they array beautifully.
Click to expand...

I was at a festival with Jason and was walking the coverage. I was sure that the outside box in the three box array on the left side of stage wasn't on. The pattern dropped to absolutely nothing in the area where the vendors were set up just outside of the line formed by the outside edge of that outside box.

Nope, all was on and good, just amazing pattern control.
 
Re: What are good choices for mains that stand alone well and array nicely?

Just how big do you want to go? For the around 1000 market, I'd go with the JBL SRX. SRX725's and SRX728's. Do 3 subs and 3 mains per side. Turn the horn off in the middle boxes, and just use the 15's for extra LF grunt. You'll be running out of 15's well before you run out of horn on those boxes, esp. outside. That'll do 600-1200 people outdoors, depending on the style of music.



Evan
 
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