Debate

J

Jack Keaton

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Dec 6, 2011
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I posted this on psw but i know there are different eyes here.

So me and one of my friends were having a debate on which is the better set up
Mixwiz without board gear or Yamaha 01v96

Im pro Yamaha on this but this is his argument and I want to know how many agree to it.

"i had a previous version of the 01v. I would never use one of those for live sound. page layering systems suck for live sound environments not to mention the need for regulated voltage. unlike complete analog mixers. 1/3 of the features in Yamaha would you actually use. its best for a studio environment. What are you going to use motorized faders for? and are you going to access all the dynamics and effects via a 320X240px screen? layered operation for eq, levels, dynamic processing effects and gain staging between each moduale? have fun with that live. also you like the idea of of having to do a/d to d/a conversion in a live setting? and the difference between overloading an input stage of analog module and a digital module is huge. when you run a a/d convert too hard you get a wonderful result of crackles and pops. also no one is going to want to rent the 01v96"

so what are your thoughts on this?
 
Re: Debate

Layers are common to consoles reaching 100,000's of dollars. Motorised faders are used to support the layers - without them, you'd have a hard time figuring out where the level is set for each channel once you change layers. Kinda like the presonus studio live when you use the ipad to remote control it.

Gain staging between each module ? Not a factor here I don't think. Does your friend object to using drive rack PA's or other such system processors or does it have to be completely analogue ? Even the KV2 guys who looooooove analogue have digital processing.

AS for 320 x 240 screen - I use FX devices which i'm sure have a smaller screen than that. And those have digital inputs too.

Yep - overloading digital is bad. So uuhhh... are you a competant sound guy who can avoid overloading it or not ?

I would say the major difference between digital and analogue is the competance of the person running it. If you're in-experienced analogue is definately easier if there is a problem. You can inspect each knob, fader, button and follow the signal across the console to where it's going and figure out why it's not getting there.

Digital troubleshooting is harder. However if you're competant behind the console, then all is good.


andrew
 
Re: Debate

Though I'm not sure the 01v96 is the epitome of "easy to use" (I'm an owner of 5 of the various 01v boards over the years), the world has spoken and digital is the future. There are a few that deny it, but that dwindling number has to work harder and harder to justify their position as digital gets better and cheaper every year.

Back to your practical example, I've used one or two 01v96s as my main boards for live sound since they came out in 2003, and the original 01vs before that. I'm a computer guy by day, which makes me fear digital less, but even so, after a little orientation and initial setup, I don't think the 01v96 has any more pitfalls than a pile of low-end analog gear, which would be commonly found with a MixWizard - cheap patch cables, big racks to drag around, crappy graphic EQs, not enough processing, etc.
 
Re: Debate

Jack Keaton said:
so what are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

You're friend doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about.

To start I'd show him Studio Manager, but I'm guessing he's probably scared of laptops mixed with combat audio too. There's an old guard of luddite soundmen - the future will not be their friend. Hopefully he'll find all the colour touch screens and iPad apps of the newer consoles more comforting.
 
Re: Debate

Marlow Wilson said:
You're friend doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about.

To start I'd show him Studio Manager, but I'm guessing he's probably scared of laptops mixed with combat audio too. There's an old guard of luddite soundmen - the future will not be their friend. Hopefully he'll find all the colour touch screens and iPad apps of the newer consoles more comforting.
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haha thanks.

I ordered it should be here soon. I just wanted to make sure I didnt do something stupid.
 
Re: Debate

Jack Keaton said:
haha thanks.

I ordered it should be here soon. I just wanted to make sure I didnt do something stupid.
Click to expand...


You'll be fine. I wrote a message a while ago about everything I wish I knew about the 01v96 when I started but didn't. I'll see if I can find it. I was an 01v user, so I was very comfortable on the platform. I did try to train some other people on it and at first I withheld Studio Manager (SM) because you really should know how to roll without it. However, I found once I got people used to studio manager they were way more comfortable playing with stuff. I'd do both if I was you - once you are comfortable doing something on SM try to make it happen on little screen (or vice-versa). Once you get your head around the layout it's really nothing.

There are still some things I prefer doing within SM (mute groups) and others that I naturally do on the console (pairing/unpairing, etc). You'll find your own flow.

(PS - if your friend wants to dabble in the future tell he to check out the presonus - it's a little less complicated)

(PPS - re cross rentability - I agree with him somewhat. I still own a Mix Wiz and a bunch of little mackies (and a small outboard kit). The reality is that the Mix Wiz can't replace the 01v96 though. You'd need something much larger and LOTS of outboard to make the same show happen. Once you get to that point, the people who care about what they're renting tend to not want either the MixWiz or the 01v96 - preferring larger digital or analogue. For the people who don't know what they're doing to Mixwiz has too many knobs anyways - get a little used mackie 1402 or something if you're worried that you need something for 'volunteer' soundman use or whatever.)
 
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Re: Debate

TJ Cornish said:
Though I'm not sure the 01v96 is the epitome of "easy to use" .....<snip>
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01v is not a walk up and use it, no question.

..... I don't think the 01v96 has any more pitfalls than a pile of low-end analog gear, which would be commonly found with a MixWizard - cheap patch cables, big racks to drag around, crappy graphic EQs, not enough processing, etc.
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Great point. Detractors of digital usually do their best to ignore or gloss over this point.
 
Re: Debate

Which would I rather have for a club gig? The MixWizard with the outboard. For a corporate show? The 01V. Is there a definite advantage one way or the other? Not really, I'm happier moving fast and mixing on the MixWizard but the 01V has power that cannot be ignored.

I think a lot of your buddy's arguments (like regulated voltage) are bullshit.
 
Re: Debate

Philip LaDue said:
The laptop is for configuring before mixing.
One or two clicks instead of many button presses and scroll wheel moves.
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Yeah but in a situation where the other option is a mixwiz, I can't imagine how much pre-configuring really needs to be done. The default scene is pretty close as it is.

I agree in any situation I'd always rather have the laptop with studio manager. But laptop or no laptop, if I'm mixing I'll take an 01v96 over a mixwiz + outboard any day.
 
Re: Debate

Evan Kirkendall said:
I can get a good sounding mix up and running on an 01v faster than any analog desk. Studio manager slows me down. The surface is fast enough to mix on the fly, and the feature set blows away any other "small format" analog desk.



Evan
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+1. I would estimate I could take an 01V96 fresh out of the box, hook it up to the PA and mics, and have start soundchecking the band within 2 minutes of switching it on. Aside from having to change a few small settings like switching auxes from pre to post, I have found most Yamaha boards are pretty plug and play with their default settings. Now that I have learned the boards, I can zip around on them very quickly, however, I was willing to learn something new instead of just clinging to what was familiar.
 
Re: Debate

Mix Wiz with typical Mix Wiz level outboard gear vs. an O1V96 w/ my laptop? 01v96 please!

BUT....

If there's room for my tasty swiss army 6ru outboard rack I'd be happy with the Mix Wiz.

AND...

If there are no graphs with the O1V cause "we don't need them we're all digital!:D~:-D~:grin:" and I'm doing wedges from FOH I'd be pretty grumpy. Had this happen a few years back with an 02R and a crowd around the mic bluegrass act. NOT. HAPPY. I made a unpleasant call to the house guy who took another gig that night cause he knew I was coming. Pulled it off like a boss though. Cause that's how I roll.
 
Re: Debate

Marsellus Fariss said:
Mix Wiz with typical Mix Wiz level outboard gear vs. an O1V96 w/ my laptop? 01v96 please!

BUT....

If there's room for my tasty swiss army 6ru outboard rack I'd be happy with the Mix Wiz.

AND...

If there are no graphs with the O1V cause "we don't need them we're all digital!:D~:-D~:grin:" and I'm doing wedges from FOH I'd be pretty grumpy. Had this happen a few years back with an 02R and a crowd around the mic bluegrass act. NOT. HAPPY. I made a unpleasant call to the house guy who took another gig that night cause he knew I was coming. Pulled it off like a boss though. Cause that's how I roll.
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You can always use the output parametric to help get some control over the wedges. While not as "quick" as grabbing a graphic-it is much more accurate (assuming the user actually knows the correct freq to adjust-very often this is NOT the case-and most "engineers" I have run into just simply "guess" and "whack away" at the eq :( )
 
Re: Debate

Evan Kirkendall said:
I can get a good sounding mix up and running on an 01v faster than any analog desk. Studio manager slows me down. The surface is fast enough to mix on the fly, and the feature set blows away any other "small format" analog desk.



Evan
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First of all, I think a lot of beginners become confused by people omitting the "96" in 01v96. The 01v and 01v96 have many of the same features but are very different to move around on. The 01v96 is, of course, the easiest by far of the two. If the OP's friend has tried one digital desk and that's the 01v he's going to think all digitals are that cumbersome.

Regarding Studio Manager: It's a lot easier on the eyes than the desk screen. In tems of functionality, some things, like naming channels or saves, setting up patches or quickly assigning many channels to many different groups is easier to do on the computer. In terms of visibility things like watching master meters on the PC while the inputs are up on the meters on the desk is practical. PC is great for quickly seeing what mics are in what monitor, quickly seeing which channels have dynamics inserted, quickly checking if you left the HPF disengaged on one of the lavs. I can get around the 01v96 just fine but Studio Manager makes the whole experience a lot more enjoyable.
 
Re: Debate

I own an 01V and have used the 01V96 enough to wish i had one every time I have to use mine. Having patched up small and large format analog boards, there is no question that I would rather use digital. it costs about 60€ to rent an 01V96 in my city. An equivalent budget using analog gear would not be fun.

recall, multiple parametrics, no cables, soft patching, dynamics everywhere, etc - i dont see how there is any argument.

The reason I still drag my 01V out is for combat gigs for friends where its better to avoid whatever the house has.
 
Re: Debate

This is an interesting thread. I've been mixing as a weekend hobby for 25 years, but I've not spent much time learning about new gear. Lately, I've been running a lot of small, portable PA's using Mackie 16 ch boards, but I've been unhappy with the limited send options. So I recently picked up a Mixwiz3, which has 6 sends and 2 sweeping mid EQ's. I haven't used it yet but it tested out perfectly, and it generally gets good reviews.

So I'm out with my wife last weekend watching a band that I was in 20 years ago - they sounded slick (as always) and my old friend Jim was still mixing from stage. I didn't get much time to talk shop, so I followed with an email, asking what equipment he uses, & how he liked his system.

The board he was using is the 01v96. He stated that it does everything wonderfully. No processing gear, analogue EQ's, bad effects boxes, etc. They use in-ear monitors, with a custom mix for every song. Rooms can be recalled after getting them perfect, etc.

Basically, he affirmed what most are saying here - Once you go to digital you won't want go back.
 
Re: Debate

So I got the 01v96. Its really not that hard. In minutes I was able to figure out most of the need to know things. How to get to eq, aux, gate, compress, delays, 10 minutes later I had it running with a computer. I still have to figure out routing and some other key things but I dont see it as being a deal breaker. I am happy with my money spent on this.
 
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