PA Setup Question

B

Brian Murphy

Freshman
Jun 18, 2012
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Hello everyone.

I find myself in the position of trying to be tactful and practical at the same time which is sometimes not easy.
I'm in a weekend warrior band which has a so-so PA consisting of Mackie 450's and a Behringer powered mixer. There is very little interest in spending any money on upgrading the PA. Most times the EQ and levels are off because the PA is run from the stage. A lot of these gigs don't pay enough to justify hiring a soundman and if they did it's doubtful the other members would go for it anyway.

I'm thinking of using a snake(I have one) to run an EQ out 50' from the stage, set it and then bring the EQ back and run it direct to the mixer so that no one messes with it. Bad idea, better than nothing, more practical solution?

Thank you,

Murph.......
 
Re: PA Setup Question

I don't think that would be solving any real issue. The biggest problem running sound from the stage is that you can't know how it sounds in the house - with stage volume, acoustics, etc.

What do you play? My suggestion would be to get a wireless system for whatever you're playing (as long as it's not drums), and during soundcheck or the show, walk into the audience every once in a while and make mental note of anything that needs to be adjusted. After a while, you'll begin to just 'know' how things should be adjusted in certain venues.

Essentially, the more you can hear, the better you can make it sound.
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Silas Pradetto said:
I don't think that would be solving any real issue. The biggest problem running sound from the stage is that you can't know how it sounds in the house - with stage volume, acoustics, etc.

What do you play? My suggestion would be to get a wireless system for whatever you're playing (as long as it's not drums), and during soundcheck or the show, walk into the audience every once in a while and make mental note of anything that needs to be adjusted. After a while, you'll begin to just 'know' how things should be adjusted in certain venues.

Essentially, the more you can hear, the better you can make it sound.
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Silas, thank you for the suggestion.
I play guitar and sing (lead or backup)on just about every tune we play. Adjusting the PA while performing would be difficult to pull off.

Murph.....
 
Re: PA Setup Question

You're in my world now. I've mixed more one nighters on small stick systems from stage while playing guitar and singing than I care to admit. Step 1 - get everyone there early enough to get a quick balance on vocal mics. You might try a long mic cord or add 2 together to walk out front and listen while everyone plays a soundcheck song together. Step 2 - NEVER add kick to a stick system - VOCALS ONLY. Make the band play at that level that allows the kick to be heard without miking it. If the drummer is healthy and has a new modern kit with a good head system that should be enough.

This last bit of low budget wisdom is tricky. FLATTEN the EQ on everything to start with. Bring vocals up to the squeal level and search for the offending slider. Just barely touch that one and leave it. The cheaper powered PAs are barely tolerable to begin with and when you start hacking big slices with the cheap on board EQs they really start to sound bad. In other words - get to the max before feedback and leave it alone.
 
Re: PA Setup Question

This last bit of low budget wisdom is tricky. FLATTEN the EQ on everything to start with. Bring vocals up to the squeal level and search for the offending slider. Just barely touch that one and leave it. The cheaper powered PAs are barely tolerable to begin with and when you start hacking big slices with the cheap on board EQs they really start to sound bad. In other words - get to the max before feedback and leave it alone.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]


I don't think that this advice applies to only cheap or small rigs, the amount of hacked eqs etc I see especially in monitor world makes me cringe, if you want your monitor to sound as though it's buried under a blanket then hack away, but see if you turn it down a bit and dial back in most of the eq'd cuts you will probably find it sounds just as loud and you may have some headroom left in the mixer which will allow the mix busses to actually do their job without distorting and the whole thing will work quite happily honest it will. Rant over. G

ps don't start me on huge amounts of channel compression either
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Gene Hardage said:
This last bit of low budget wisdom is tricky. FLATTEN the EQ on everything to start with. Bring vocals up to the squeal level and search for the offending slider. Just barely touch that one and leave it. The cheaper powered PAs are barely tolerable to begin with and when you start hacking big slices with the cheap on board EQs they really start to sound bad. In other words - get to the max before feedback and leave it alone.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to dispute flattening the EQs to start with, but my priority isn't to EQ everything for maximum gain before feedback; my priority is to make things sound good and sit nicely in the mix. Rarely do I have a source that is so problematic that my only focus is making it stable.
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Silas Pradetto said:
I'm not going to dispute flattening the EQs to start with, but my priority isn't to EQ everything for maximum gain before feedback; my priority is to make things sound good and sit nicely in the mix. Rarely do I have a source that is so problematic that my only focus is making it stable.
Click to expand...

Yeah but now you're getting into advanced stick PA mojo... :lol:

What I wanna know is - why do all my blues band buddies with little powered Mackies Yammys and Bgrs insist on using the smiley face they saw drawn on the cave walls? :evil:
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Many years ago I always had to fight with monitors to keep em from squealing. I had cheap wedges and 15 band eq. I thought I needed to spend all my cash on the mains.

I did upgrade over the years and it got better but was often still THE challenge most nights. Then I got the religion!
At a get together organized by Bennett and John Ciara, a bunch of us got to play with a wide variety of pro wedges - 13 different ones if I remember (several in pairs). Some got "stupid loud".

Feedback resistance seemed to correlate with the stiffness of the cabinet (that is, the wedges that went loudest without feedback were the heavy ones)!!
Wow! I got to borrow a pair of FBT powered boxes as part of "Road Test" and use them for my problem band. What a difference! I was able to stop fussing over the monitor mix and work on how it sounded out front. Very liberating!

So I bought a bunch of heavy wedges, 55lbs each though I remember Trace Knight saying that any wedge worth using needed two stage hands to move it :)

Anyway, the moral of the story is to get good wedges and place them correctly if monitors are important to you.
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Rob Spence said:
Many years ago I always had to fight with monitors to keep em from squealing. I had cheap wedges and 15 band eq. I thought I needed to spend all my cash on the mains.

I did upgrade over the years and it got better but was often still THE challenge most nights. Then I got the religion!
At a get together organized by Bennett and John Ciara, a bunch of us got to play with a wide variety of pro wedges - 13 different ones if I remember (several in pairs). Some got "stupid loud".

Feedback resistance seemed to correlate with the stiffness of the cabinet (that is, the wedges that went loudest without feedback were the heavy ones)!!
Wow! I got to borrow a pair of FBT powered boxes as part of "Road Test" and use them for my problem band. What a difference! I was able to stop fussing over the monitor mix and work on how it sounded out front. Very liberating!

So I bought a bunch of heavy wedges, 55lbs each though I remember Trace Knight saying that any wedge worth using needed two stage hands to move it :)

Anyway, the moral of the story is to get good wedges and place them correctly if monitors are important to you.
Click to expand...


Quality pro gear is the answer but the OP question was regarding the other end of the spectrum. There are a few companies that make high quality monitors that are small and lite that sound great - I have some. However, I'm on a new kick and will be converting over to a stick style rig with subs and for my band - no monitors! Of course I'll use conventional speakers with monitors for the bigger events that warrant the extra gear.
 
Re: PA Setup Question

The first pa's I worked on had the weight thing in spades but little or no eq anywhere bar the FOH and even then it was basic (desk or inserts). There was a good selection of mics but lack of feedback depended on the mic position and speaker position and gain structure. It was a good lesson and one that still helps today especially in a throw and go situation. It did help that most bands seemed to have their act together more than these days but that might just be me dreaming. In small spaces sometimes a pair of stick mounted speakers washing across the stage with the vocals/accoustic guitar on them only is all that's neededG
 
Re: PA Setup Question

Jay Barracato said:
I am huge fan of stick mounted sidefills on small stages.
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Which is something the OP can do too.

For soundcheck turn the mains gain down a bit, and spin the FOH cabinets back to face the band.

Get it sounding as good as you can, spin the cabinets back around to face the audience, and bring the gain back up.

It's not ideal, but at least you'll get an idea of what the boxes sound like with the band playing through them. Any serious problems should be obvious with the speakers pointing at you.

GTD
 
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