Driving stage wedges

M

Mitch Miller

Sophomore
Oct 30, 2012
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My apologies for this particularly elementary question. The forum description said "hobbyists" and that describes me, so I figured this is the right place.

I'm looking to set up an area for my son and his band to practice, but something that would give them more of an on-stage experience with wedges for the vocalists and possibly IEMs for the bass, guitar and drummer. If all goes well, I hope to be using an X32 to mix with.

The actual question is about driving the wedges. Since it's my first entry to this area, I'm wondering if it'd be advisable to purchase active monitors that could also double as house speakers for smaller venues where I may not need the "works."

If powered monitors are a huge no-no, then my question is about using power amps. Most of the ones I've seen have two channels, presumably most often used as a stereo pair. When being used as power stage monitors, can I use a single amp's two channels to power two separate mono monitor mixes? Or, should I buy smaller amps, bridge them and drive each set of wedges fro a separate amp?

Thanks for the guidance.

--Mitch
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Mitch Miller said:
My apologies for this particularly elementary question. The forum description said "hobbyists" and that describes me, so I figured this is the right place.

I'm looking to set up an area for my son and his band to practice, but something that would give them more of an on-stage experience with wedges for the vocalists and possibly IEMs for the bass, guitar and drummer. If all goes well, I hope to be using an X32 to mix with.

The actual question is about driving the wedges. Since it's my first entry to this area, I'm wondering if it'd be advisable to purchase active monitors that could also double as house speakers for smaller venues where I may not need the "works."

If powered monitors are a huge no-no, then my question is about using power amps. Most of the ones I've seen have two channels, presumably most often used as a stereo pair. When being used as power stage monitors, can I use a single amp's two channels to power two separate mono monitor mixes? Or, should I buy smaller amps, bridge them and drive each set of wedges fro a separate amp?

Thanks for the guidance.

--Mitch
Click to expand...

well Mitch, for a 'hobbyist' you ask very good questions.

First, good call on the X32. can't think of a better choice for what you want to do.

Second, i'd go with powered speakers as wedges. they just solve all kinds of problems and, as you said, can double as small main speakers.

Third, yes a 'stereo' power amp is really essentially just two mono amps in a box. you can run two different monitor mixes off it should you decide to go the non-powered route. I wouldn't go with bridging smaller amps. you get into issues with hooking them up being more complex, you can't hang as many speakers off one mix, etc. a decent sized amp running in regular ol' normal mode is the simplest, easiest way to go. short of powered wedges. :)

as to specific models to recommend, someone else will have to chime in there...
 
Hi,

For what you are doing and the price range you are probably working in I would recommend powered speakers as wedges. The flexibility and simplicity is a great benefit in my mind.

However if you want to go with a separate amp rack there is nothing wrong with having different mixes on each side of the "stereo" amp and I prefer that to bridging.

I will caution against trying to mix wedges and gems on the same stage. In my opinion that brings out the worst in both methods.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

brian maddox said:
well Mitch, for a 'hobbyist' you ask very good questions.
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Thanks Brian. I am a tech geek, and have been an electronics (as in electronic engineering) nut since the 70's. So I have the benefit of having some electronics fundamentals behind me, like resistance, impedance, AC vs. DC, capacitance, etc.

I also run sound for our church where we have an iLive T112 surface with the 64x32 DSP unit (and have done the same for our HS worship teams, where they have a smaller A&H analog mixer). So at least I already know some of the basics of running the boards.

I've just never designed a setup, so that's kinda what is driving my questions.

So here I am now, dad to a self-taught, perfectionist-driven teenage guitarist. Looking to do what I can to support him musically by providing a place for them to rehearse and possibly provide sound for him should they get to the point of live performances. And, while I'm at it, become a better sound tech.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Jay Barracato said:
I will caution against trying to mix wedges and gems on the same stage. In my opinion that brings out the worst in both methods.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Jay.

So, do I understand you're suggesting going either all in-ear, or all stage wedge?

Our church setup (which was designed by some pretty capable talent) includes wedges for the vocalists (all at the front edge of the stage), headphones for the drummer, and in-ear for the guitarist, keys and bassist. The high school setup is a much smaller stage and they've been using just four wedges (for monitoring), but are in the process of giving the vocalists and drummer IEMs.

You're thinking that's a bad choice; or maybe just tougher to mix.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Hi Mitch,
I will second everything Brian said. I especially like active powered monitors. There are many good choices out there these days. I still have some old Italian made Mackie SRM450's that I still use regularly even though I have several pairs of EAW LA215's and EAW SM159zi's. They work really well as main speakers for smaller accoustc shows and when I add a subwoofer not too bad for small DJ events. Just plug in and go. Not a whole lot if any EQ needed when using as monitors and no crossover or digital processing to deal with. Good luck!
-Eric
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Mitch Miller said:
Thanks for the reply, Jay.

So, do I understand you're suggesting going either all in-ear, or all stage wedge?

Our church setup (which was designed by some pretty capable talent) includes wedges for the vocalists (all at the front edge of the stage), headphones for the drummer, and in-ear for the guitarist, keys and bassist. The high school setup is a much smaller stage and they've been using just four wedges (for monitoring), but are in the process of giving the vocalists and drummer IEMs.

You're thinking that's a bad choice; or maybe just tougher to mix.
Click to expand...

If you're starting from scratch, IEMs may be the better option for monitors (cost should be about the same per channel, more consistent, quieter), but that will require that you have the rest of the setup. But consider that this is for a practice space. A single vocal wedge should be sufficient for the vocalist (multiple wedges if multiple vocalists). Any amplified instrument aleady has its own monitor.

A band starting out would be well served by getting its stage sound solid (this includes things like amp settings and positioning, drummer dynamics, musician arrangement, etc.).
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

I much prefer wedges/speakers on stands to wedges on the floor. A cross stage setup is easier for everyone to hear and let's performers move around more and still be in a sweet spot.
Powered is probably the way to go.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

I'm NOT a fan of powered speakers as stage monitors. The primary reason being that now you have to provide both signal and power to the monitor on the stage. This means more wires. Also, with a powered speaker, now there are controls on the speaker that will get messed with, which means a tech will have to come on stage to fix what the musician messed up.

If IEMs are an option, that's pretty much always preferred. The lower you can keep your stage volume, the happier everyone will be.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Brian jojade said:
I'm NOT a fan of powered speakers as stage monitors. The primary reason being that now you have to provide both signal and power to the monitor on the stage. This means more wires. Also, with a powered speaker, now there are controls on the speaker that will get messed with, which means a tech will have to come on stage to fix what the musician messed up.

If IEMs are an option, that's pretty much always preferred. The lower you can keep your stage volume, the happier everyone will be.
Click to expand...

Ditto!
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

If Mitch is running to a tight budget and also relatively inexperienced then powered speakers esp QSC K series and the like will sound and work better right out the box than matching amps to speakers and attendant woes which seem to occupy an awful lot of posts here. Mitch try for all in IEMs especially if you get the X32, the P16 looks to be a good thing I use the similar Roland system and it helps a lot with noise levels and actually seems to help a band play better, though that probably says more about my lack of mon mixing skills than anything else :(( G
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Alan Sledzieski said:
Just wondering problems they solve for you?
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I am not Brian but I will answer for me.
1) No amp rack to deal with.
2) No dsp settings or no limiter and crossover to worry about.
3) Very little if any EQ needed to control feedback.
4) No worries about over/under powering and blowing them up.
5) Very flat frequency respose out of the gate. Helps with 3).
6) Plug in power and the XLR and pull the faders up.
7) They sound really good without having to tweak the EQ.
8) Lets me worry about other aspects of the show rather than spending time tweaking monitors.
9) They have pretty blue LED's on them.
 
It is about the number of competing sources for similar sounds.

For your guitarist to clearly hear in the iems they have to seal well enough (custom molds) to reduce all the ambient sound from the house system, the monitors, and the stage amps, or be loud enough to overcome all that. If the source the musician intends to focus on isn't significantly louder then the others they will hear all of them as a smeared mud with no clarity.

I am also a big fan of side fills. If I were helping train a new ensemble with no previous experience (bad habits) I would train them to listen to the same minimal mix where they can hear each other rather than creating another of "more me is all that matters".
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Eric Cagle said:
I am not Brian but I will answer for me.
1) No amp rack to deal with.
2) No dsp settings or no limiter and crossover to worry about.
3) Very little if any EQ needed to control feedback.
4) No worries about over/under powering and blowing them up.
5) Very flat frequency respose out of the gate. Helps with 3).
6) Plug in power and the XLR and pull the faders up.
7) They sound really good without having to tweak the EQ.
8) Lets me worry about other aspects of the show rather than spending time tweaking monitors.
9) They have pretty blue LED's on them.
Click to expand...

Thanks eric. That pretty much sums it up. Now I can go play words with friends... :)
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Just throwing this out there; IEMs are great and all but I think they would be better off learning on wedges. How many of the little clubs, talent shows and multi-band throw-and-go events are going to have the ability or willingness to work with IEMs when your not providing production?
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Lee Douglas said:
Just throwing this out there; IEMs are great and all but I think they would be better off learning on wedges. How many of the little clubs, talent shows and multi-band throw-and-go events are going to have the ability or willingness to work with IEMs when your not providing production?
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True true true. At least learn to play with wedges in case there is a festival situation where you have 15 minutes or less to be on stage ready to play including striking the previous band and setting up your gear. The only practical way to use ears fast is to bring your entire setup including all of the mics and either hand the house engineer your left and right outputs (if you locate the board at front of house, run your own snake, and mix the band yourself) or give him a split if he has enough channels left on his board or is willing to unplug his mics and plug yours in. You had better already have your in ear sound check already set up and worked out from practice or the last gig or it is not going to happen in any reasonable amount of time.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

I am going to add for the band to learn to play at as low of a stage volume as they can be comfortable with. What is really NEEDED in wedge monitors are vocals and any instrument that is not amplified, like an accoustic guitar or a keyboard without its own amplifier. Only the drummer usually needs electric guitars in his monitor. I have ran monitors for hundreds and hundreds of shows, many times from front of house, and believe me usually less is more. I often have bass players who run a direct box only and in that situation you need to sound check monitors with bass running at volume through the mains. Just a couple of suggestions.
 
Re: Driving stage wedges

Eric Cagle said:
I am not Brian but I will answer for me.
1) No amp rack to deal with.
2) No dsp settings or no limiter and crossover to worry about.
3) Very little if any EQ needed to control feedback.
4) No worries about over/under powering and blowing them up.
5) Very flat frequency respose out of the gate. Helps with 3).
6) Plug in power and the XLR and pull the faders up.
7) They sound really good without having to tweak the EQ.
8) Lets me worry about other aspects of the show rather than spending time tweaking monitors.
9) They have pretty blue LED's on them.
Click to expand...

The only things on the list that I see as truth are #1 and #9. #9 could be accomplished with a quick mod to a passive speaker if you really wanted that...

#2 might be a concern if you decide to biamp your monitors. I never do. I don't have limiters on my monitors, other than the limiter on the amp.
#3 The choice of speaker that you use will have more to do with the amount of EQ that you need to make it work. Active/passive has nothing to do with that.
#4 My stage monitors are JBL SRX712's powered with QSC PLX3602s. They get loud as hell with zero concern for blowing them up, ever. If the artist's head explodes on stage, I know to turn them down a little, so at least I get a heads up clue before problems happen.
#5 Flat frequency response again depends on the speaker being used. Mackie SRM 450's flat? Ha ha ha.
#6 With a powered speaker, you have to plug in power and signal, and make sure all the settings on the speaker are right when deployed. Plugging signal into your amp rack and running just a single speaker cable is equal, or even less work.
#7 Again, this is the same as #3 and #5. The choice of speaker is the deciding factor here.
#8 Once set, the tweaking during the show would be the same either way. Of course, unless the artist starts to dabble with knobs. On a positive note if you break off the ground plug and reverse the AC polarity, you can make the chassis of the speaker hot. This way, when the artist touches it, they get a little shock therapy reminder to keep their hands off. Win for active speakers.
 
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