Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
Yea looks to be a pretty good deal....however, those boxes are just too big and heavy for what I have available to fly them.
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When we started looking at line arrays, EAW was at the top of our short list of manufacturers. Size & weight of the 760 were the main deal breaker for us, and when coupled with EAW's then-lousy parts & service support the 760/761 were dead in the water. Ultimately I think that was a blessing in disguise, though, as JBL has been top-notch with support & education, and the client/artist acceptance has been everything we hoped it would be.

If you could swing it, the Turbosound Flex is a great box.

I think it was asked before, but what are your competitors using?
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
When we started looking at line arrays, EAW was at the top of our short list of manufacturers. Size & weight of the 760 were the main deal breaker for us, and when coupled with EAW's then-lousy parts & service support the 760/761 were dead in the water. Ultimately I think that was a blessing in disguise, though, as JBL has been top-notch with support & education, and the client/artist acceptance has been everything we hoped it would be.

If you could swing it, the Turbosound Flex is a great box.

I think it was asked before, but what are your competitors using?
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One has GEO S12 and the other has Dynacord Cobra
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
One has GEO S12 and the other has Dynacord Cobra
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I see your conundrum. The Cobra rig works decently as a ground stack; the Geo S12 is a nice-sounding 2 way box that's thrifty with power and is light enough that a decent sized rig can be flown from almost anything reasonable.

Are you sure you want to compete with them, line to line? It looks like it will be expensive to do better than them in the vertical array biz, so maybe you should be looking at a point and shoot rig like Nexo Alpha or d&b C3. Both are light weight, sound good, have serious output, and can be found used.

Good luck with whatever you pick.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
I see your conundrum. The Cobra rig works decently as a ground stack; the Geo S12 is a nice-sounding 2 way box that's thrifty with power and is light enough that a decent sized rig can be flown from almost anything reasonable.

Are you sure you want to compete with them, line to line? It looks like it will be expensive to do better than them in the vertical array biz, so maybe you should be looking at a point and shoot rig like Nexo Alpha or d&b C3. Both are light weight, sound good, have serious output, and can be found used.

Good luck with whatever you pick.
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Thanks for the help, yea if i was going to stick with ground stacking I would probably just go KF850 but I'll tell you some of the main reasons I decided against that even though they are attractively priced....

1) Shipping them to me initially would be quite expensive as compared to buying a new line array or other system from a manufacturer that offers free shipping
2) They weigh a ton and would require a minimum of 3-4 guys to stack them and on occasion its just me and 1 other person deploying a rig (line arrays can be easily lifted out of cases by the sumners) :)
3) They will take up too much trailer space in an already packed 24ft auto hauler
4) I have no way to get them higher than just stacking on subs, we do a multipurpose center semiannually where another company use to stack an 850 rig on the ground and the horns were not clearing the audience enough to really throw with clarity to the back of the room.

I know you guys don't like the TVI gear for various reasons but I've now talked to about 6 of their customers and I only got 1 bad review and that was from a guy that had one of the earliest runs of them.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
One has GEO S12 and the other has Dynacord Cobra
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Brandon, how far into "not talking" are all of you, cause you might do yourself a favour and buy whatever pa you are most friendly with, so that one of them might cross rent from you, and visa versa, when either of you need to scale up. Having something local for them to sub-rent, benefits you in the long run. It fixes your "comparison" quote issue as well, and if you can shine brighter on the service side, you might have an edge. Just a thought.
 
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Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Caleb Dick said:
I know you can find TVI owners that like them, but how many BE's would take it over Nexo?
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From the information I can find, the TVI C210ii is louder than the GEO s12 with a peak spl of 136dB versus 133dB. I know that brand name means a lot, but if I were a BE I would take the louder box with more drivers if I had my pick.

Also, I can't find a price anywhere online for Nexo products. That is really annoying.....at least put a list price somewhere that people can easily google to get a ballpark figure.

As far as crossrenting, I am quite friendly with the folks that own the cobra rig and we work together frequently. They have plenty of those boxes, so I don't really foresee a situation where they would need to add on to it. In the past the only times we've ever needed each other's gear is when for instance there were two gigs on one day or someone had a festival that needed a system for an extra stage.....
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon Blakeney said:
From the information I can find, the TVI C210ii is louder than the GEO s12 with a peak spl of 136dB versus 133dB. I know that brand name means a lot, but if I were a BE I would take the louder box with more drivers if I had my pick.

..
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Just looking at a peak number and "somehow" determining that one box is "louder" than another is often a VERY DANGEROUS thing to do.

Where does that number come from? Have you compared MEASURED responses?

It could be that the number given is simple a peak in the response, and totally not usable as a average across the usable range. This happens all the time. It is VERY misleading.

You need a lot more information before you can even start to determine if one box is actually louder than another. What does it sound like at those levels for example?
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Ivan Beaver said:
Just looking at a peak number and "somehow" determining that one box is "louder" than another is often a VERY DANGEROUS thing to do.

Where does that number come from? Have you compared MEASURED responses?

It could be that the number given is simple a peak in the response, and totally not usable as a average across the usable range. This happens all the time. It is VERY misleading.

You need a lot more information before you can even start to determine if one box is actually louder than another. What does it sound like at those levels for example?
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And, that Box A can make a louder noise than Box B does not mean that A can make a USABLE noise that is louder, or even as loud, as B. To paraphrase Twain (who says he stole it), there are lies, damn lies, and specifications.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim Padrick said:
And, that Box A can make a louder noise than Box B does not mean that A can make a USABLE noise that is louder, or even as loud, as B. To paraphrase Twain (who says he stole it), there are lies, damn lies, and specifications.
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Exactly. To me, that spec says that the TVI can make much more distortion when cranked up than the Nexo will. And that's really because the Nexo is properly limited. Which is a good thing....
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim Padrick said:
And, that Box A can make a louder noise than Box B does not mean that A can make a USABLE noise that is louder, or even as loud, as B. To paraphrase Twain (who says he stole it), there are lies, damn lies, and specifications.
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There is one spec that is missing from ALL loudspeakers specs (that I have seen).

What is the USABLE SPL that is acceptable? FO course the term "usable" means different things to different people. Some like a little bit of distortion-others do not.

So what spec number is that?

I have heard lots of systems that get loud-but I don't want to listen to them at that level. But an SPL meter would show that one is "louder" than another.

Hence the REAL need to LISTEN to SIDE BY SIDE different systems that one is interested in. But I also realize this is VERY hard to do-and some manufacturers WILL NOT do side by side demos. So you have to "third party" the demos.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim McCulloch said:
d&b C3.
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Indeed. The C series can be found used at reasonable prices and are fantastic boxes when used with the D12 amps. C3's are 35x5 degree boxes though, so he'd likely want to mix n match with C4's (3's and 4's are fly compatible). I can't imagine any BE at the level Brandon is at being unhappy with that.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Jeff Babcock said:
Indeed. The C series can be found used at reasonable prices and are fantastic boxes when used with the D12 amps. C3's are 35x5 degree boxes though, so he'd likely want to mix n match with C4's (3's and 4's are fly compatible). I can't imagine any BE at the level Brandon is at being unhappy with that.
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+1. I'll take the C system over lower-tier line arrays any day!
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Bennett Prescott said:
Ivan,

When you can figure out how to measure what level to assign the SPL(DSLS) (Doesn't Sound Like Shit) we'll put it on our spec sheets too! ;)
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I was thinking more of a complete loudspeaker cabinet-not so much a loudspeaker driver.

You could "argue" that 10% distortion "might" be a target.

But then we get into the whole (exactly how is it measured) type of thing.

And those that don't follow the same "guidlines" will have different max SPL numbers that would be higher. And "OF COURSE" people want a higher SPL number.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Ivan Beaver said:
I was thinking more of a complete loudspeaker cabinet-not so much a loudspeaker driver.

You could "argue" that 10% distortion "might" be a target.

But then we get into the whole (exactly how is it measured) type of thing.

And those that don't follow the same "guidlines" will have different max SPL numbers that would be higher. And "OF COURSE" people want a higher SPL number.
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A lot of systems, particularly subwoofers, that are popular produce way more than 10% distorsion at rated output, we would have some sad marketing departments if we set standards like that :lol:
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Brandon,

I was in your situation just last year, I even started a thread on here somewhere. Just like you I'm a "weekend warrior" with a full time, but my full time job allows me to play with all the big league toys without having to pay for it out of my pocket. I wanted to purchase a small to mid line array, something like KF730, VT4887A or even a 4888 rig. I don't need to meet riders but was looking at the angle of cross renting MY gear out to the soundco's in my area. There are many soundco's here with JBL VT's, but not many in my market (Portuguese bands and artists)
I would only need the rig for 1 confirmed show I do every year (outdoors with 2-2.5K ppl) with the possibility of landing bigger events with the "RIG". After crunching some numbers and taking into acct all the other expenses I decided not to get into that game.

Here where some of my reasons
1) Gear, transportation, storage and maintenance.
2) What if those bigger events don't come knocking?
3) If they didn't come, how would I be able to pay that gear off?
4) Would it make more sense to cross rent when needed?

A friend of mine actually has alot of the gear I was looking at buying, and even though we are technically competition to each other we help each other out when it comes to gear. I have landed 2 more bigger events where I need a line array bringing my grand total to 3 shows a year, but I'm still cross renting it from my friend as it still isn't feasible to own it myself.

You need to look at the pros/cons of owning the gear.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I think you'll find that output and overall performance don't really mean much when looking at a large-scale system. Just like when buying a fleet of trucks for your freight company, engine horsepower means very little in the overall picture compared to maintenance schedules, reliability, parts availability, driver familiarity, etc.

Buying a line array is a commitment to provide a higher level of service from your company. You need the infrastructure to back that up - crew, trucks, distros, warehouse, insurance, and it goes on and on.

Once you have purchased the array you obviously need to be able to market its availability to your clients, something they are hopefully asking for right now, and that you have to crossrent or decline to provide. If there isn't a current demand, do not expect it to show up immediately after purchasing the rig. "If you buy it they won't come, necessarily."

So things that matter for the array itself really just come down to ROI. Even array and rider acceptability don't matter all that much; as others have said, if your rig gets you the contract for the show, the bands have to suck it up or don't play. Of course, a name brand and preferred array does help a LOT with your marketing, especially when its a brand the layman recognizes (EAW, JBL).

I was recently in this position also, and I considered many different rigs before I made the decision, based mainly on two factors: The RCF rig I bought is going to be fine for all the shows I do (no one cares what rig I bring most of the time, as long as it's a 'line array'), and, it was relatively inexpensive, so I was able to make the investment without external financing (I have pretty bad credit). It has some other pros and cons, but nothing that really mattered enough to influence the buying decision.
 
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