Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

TJ Cornish said:
By far the most technically stressful gig I've ever been a part of was the one and only time I've used a line array from a non-established/small company/proprietary player.

Building OK trap boxes is one thing; building a line array that not only sounds good but performs better/more/cheaper/easier than the established players is quite another. Maybe the Ramsdell folks have nailed it, but it's going to take more than a web page with no EASE data, graphs, or aiming software to get me to take a look, and it's going to take one heck of a lot of performance at a very low price to overcome rider acceptability concerns.
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This is the proper response for this type of forum. Some of the others need to consult with Miss Manners on proper posting etiquette. The opinions posted on this forum have served to enlighten me to the fact that there are other independent speaker designers and small companies that offer interesting products that perform as well or better than many of the well advertised corporate offerings. I never would have known about Growlers or Danleys if not for the positive things said by people on this board who have experienced them with their own ears. I've never had a chance to hear either of those products but it's safe to say that I would like them based on what I've read here. I'm offering you my opinion on a product that I've heard because I think it fits the bill for what the original poster asked for.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Gene Hardage said:
This is the proper response for this type of forum. Some of the others need to consult with Miss Manners on proper posting etiquette. The opinions posted on this forum have served to enlighten me to the fact that there are other independent speaker designers and small companies that offer interesting products that perform as well or better than many of the well advertised corporate offerings. I never would have known about Growlers or Danleys if not for the positive things said by people on this board who have experienced them with their own ears. I've never had a chance to hear either of those products but it's safe to say that I would like them based on what I've read here. I'm offering you my opinion on a product that I've heard because I think it fits the bill for what the original poster asked for.
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I am typically wary of unknown brands, unless the person designing has a pedigree. Tom Danley, Dave Gunness (Fulcrum), etc aren't industry unknowns. They are the exception, rather than rule. A lesser means of judging a company, before hearing/testing products first hand, is user reviews. If someone like Thunder Audio, for example, was raving about a manufacturer, that carries a lot more weight than a local band, or small regional sound company.

I have never tested Ramsdell speakers first hand, and likely won't. I don't know reputation (if any) of the designer, haven't heard many industry heavy hitters raving about them, a quick website perusal doesn't have anything jumping out at me that would fit our company, so odds are - they are in the Carvin/Soundbridge/etc broad camp, with a limited number of smaller fans (no offense meant). If they end up being just another meh brand - I'm not out much of my/our time. If they happen to be the Next Big Thing ® the worst case scenario is that I'll be a bit late to the party.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
I think a "meat and potatoes"-focused cabinet or two would be great. As you say, not everybody/everywhere needs anything below 40Hz. The form factor is not for me, though - as I understand you, it will be 50" tall in any typical deployment and there are many stages in my work where that won't fit. Maybe the other design you mention has an exit on a slim side? But I love cabinets with at least one very slim/small/short dimension (and the possibility of an acoustical exit on a slim side). I think it makes them more versatile than a block that takes up more than a little space in all dimensions, both in deployment and truck pack. That's also something I love about my TH212s. A "somewhat regular" size sub with TH812-like sensitivity would be awesome.
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That is the next one "in line".
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Caleb Dick said:
I am typically wary of unknown brands, unless the person designing has a pedigree. Tom Danley, Dave Gunness (Fulcrum), etc aren't industry unknowns. They are the exception, rather than rule. A lesser means of judging a company, before hearing/testing products first hand, is user reviews. If someone like Thunder Audio, for example, was raving about a manufacturer, that carries a lot more weight than a local band, or small regional sound company.

I have never tested Ramsdell speakers first hand, and likely won't. I don't know reputation (if any) of the designer, haven't heard many industry heavy hitters raving about them, a quick website perusal doesn't have anything jumping out at me that would fit our company, so odds are - they are in the Carvin/Soundbridge/etc broad camp, with a limited number of smaller fans (no offense meant). If they end up being just another meh brand - I'm not out much of my/our time. If they happen to be the Next Big Thing ® the worst case scenario is that I'll be a bit late to the party.
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WARNING - topic swerve...



Here's what their web site says - Ramsdell Pro Audio - Company
Here's my personal condensed version of what I've learned about Rick Ramsdell: He started making stereo speakers nearly 40 years ago and that led to larger PA oriented stuff for his own sound company. They did many regional PA gigs back in the day for many of my touring musical heroes on a fairly large scale. Many years ago he altered some EV 18 frames with a hacksaw and made them bigger and he retrofit some kind of larger cone on it. At that time the EV 18 was the macdaddy of speakers 'cause I'm pretty sure JBL only had a 15 back then and that led to him designing and marketing a monster 27" woofer that a few people still remember. He worked for Sony touring the country with a big semi truck full of Sony gear (sorry I don't know any details about that era) He designed the manifold sub in partnership with EV although EV takes the credit for it. Several speaker companies have picked his brain for design tips and opinions. The Florida area is covered with a variety of Ramsdell custom cab design installs - some big - some small - some new - some old. In my opinion Rick's speaker knowledge and the ability to design suitable cabs and crossovers for a variety of uses is on par with any of the best in the business. Forum cofounder and pretty smart guy Bennett Prescott might chime in and give his opinion on the matter if we ask him nicely.

Keep in mind that this is a relatively new field - the giant brand name rigs at concerts today were inspired by people like Bob Heil and Bill Hanley who had to use what was available to make their own systems. Rick Ramsdell came a little after that era but not much after. You mention Tom Danley, and Dave Gunness as examples of well respected designers and due to my location the person that fits that mold in our area is Ramsdell. I'm sure that the average Joe has never heard of any of these people.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Marjan Milosevic said:
Asymmetrical design is not that bad. Meyer Milo is also asymmetrical and i dont see anyone talking bad about them.
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Asymmetrical design is not inherently bad, but in the vast majority of asymmetrical line array boxes I've seen, the crossover point just happens to be close to the 1/2 wavelength spacing of the drivers, meaning there is NOTHING off-axis. Check out the polars of the NXL23A - it's awful. I actually like having speech intelligibility more than 10 degrees off-axis.

If the crossover point is low enough this isn't an issue (drivers can only be located so close), but most of the lower-end boxes don't seem to pay attention to this huge shortcoming.

Maybe this is why I hate VRX so much?

PS- a symmetrical line array can have this same issue, but for some reason, I don't see many boxes that have it?

PPS - my new HDL20-A boxes have a small narrowing of the pattern around 600Hz because of the spacing of the 10" drivers, but in many cases, I wouldn't mind less pattern in that range; it is a problem area in many rooms in which I work. Off the top of my head, 60 degrees is as narrow as it gets.

PPPS - both Meyer and ADR audio have asymmetrical line arrays, but both get around the pattern issue by using VERY low crossover points.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Bennett Prescott said:
Ivan,

Why 9dB/8ve instead of 12db? Just curious, I have been working with the latter.
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It is NOT a rolloff (which is probably what you were thinking). But rather "the price" that is paid. As you go lower, you have to settle for overall less output level-in order to keep the response "flat". So it is a tradeoff-not a "response" thing.

For a given size cabinet-that is what it works out to be (give or take a little). As you change other parameters (such as cabinet size), the number no longer applies.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Silas Pradetto said:
Asymmetrical design is not inherently bad, but in the vast majority of asymmetrical line array boxes I've seen, the crossover point just happens to be close to the 1/2 wavelength spacing of the drivers, meaning there is NOTHING off-axis. Check out the polars of the NXL23A - it's awful. I actually like having speech intelligibility more than 10 degrees off-axis.

If the crossover point is low enough this isn't an issue (drivers can only be located so close), but most of the lower-end boxes don't seem to pay attention to this huge shortcoming.

Maybe this is why I hate VRX so much?

PS- a symmetrical line array can have this same issue, but for some reason, I don't see many boxes that have it?

PPS - my new HDL20-A boxes have a small narrowing of the pattern around 600Hz because of the spacing of the 10" drivers, but in many cases, I wouldn't mind less pattern in that range; it is a problem area in many rooms in which I work. Off the top of my head, 60 degrees is as narrow as it gets.

PPPS - both Meyer and ADR audio have asymmetrical line arrays, but both get around the pattern issue by using VERY low crossover points.
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Lower crossover pont means expensive and very good quality hf drivers. This is where most of the problem is with the cheaper solutions. Beside the lack of understanding of the whole line array principle.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

I've always thought that it seemed necessary to double the number of boxes (appropriately powered) for every additional 5Hz of extension (if low distortion is required). I'm glad you think that it's not as bad as that :)
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Silas Pradetto said:
If the crossover point is low enough this isn't an issue (drivers can only be located so close), but most of the lower-end boxes don't seem to pay attention to this huge shortcoming.
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Just to add a little….
A fundamental design parameter for a line arrays is the spacing between individual elements.
The accepted limit for good line array behaviour requires direct radiating sources to be no more than about 1/2 wavelength apart for a given frequency. There are a lot of papers / publications on this if you do a search.
I don't think Ramdell and the Peavey 112 meet this requirement. The NX RCF has a short horn infront of the 12 that should assist. Classic designs such as V-Dosc, meet this requirement as does Turbosound, Adamson, d&b (J and V series), RCF TT33a & 55a, EAW and JBL etc. … and DB technologies T12
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Tim Padrick said:
I've always thought that it seemed necessary to double the number of boxes (appropriately powered) for every additional 5Hz of extension (if low distortion is required). I'm glad you think that it's not as bad as that :)
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Except the freq scale is not linear. A 5 Hz difference at 50hz is very different than 5Hz at 25Hz.
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Ivan Beaver said:
It is NOT a rolloff (which is probably what you were thinking). But rather "the price" that is paid. As you go lower, you have to settle for overall less output level-in order to keep the response "flat". So it is a tradeoff-not a "response" thing.
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I would assume that excursion is the real limiting factor, which goes up as the inverse square of frequency - or 12dB/8ve. Of course box tuning and driver resonance often confuse that around the frequency range of interest!
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Bennett Prescott said:
Ivan,

Why 9dB/8ve instead of 12db? Just curious, I have been working with the latter.
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Just as an aside, one place where you get a 9dB/octave penalty is from the relationship of reference efficiency, box volume, and cutoff frequency for vented-box direct radiators.

For a fixed box volume the reference efficiency varies as the cube of the cutoff frequency, which gives 9dB/octave.

This is from eq. 35 in "Vented-Box Loudspeaker Systems - Part 1: Small Signal Analysis", R. H. Small, JAES June 1973, Vol. 21, Number 5.

We have to be careful what we're talking about here: horns or direct radiators, efficiency (small signal) or power output (large signal).

For large signals, in the normal operating range of a direct radiator away from the box resonance, excursion varies as the inverse square of frequency, giving a 12dB/octave penalty when we are excursion limited.

--Frank
 
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Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Jack Keaton said:
You guys are all nerds..
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And without the nerds working of "fun stuff" you don't get all the cool toys to play with.

The better the understanding-the better the results are.

What if no nerds worked for Apple or Microsoft etc. We would not be talking and having fun with iphones. No digital consoles etc.

Just sayin'--------------
 
Re: Reasonably Priced Large Format Line Arrays

Oddly enough, there is a TVI rig sitting in my theatre right now, not sure what model but they are powered and look to be a dual 10 or dual 12 box, 6 per side. Soundcheck sounded alright aside from some room issues, I'll pipe back in tonight on how they sound with a full room.

These are definitely not large format, looking to be a good fit for our 1250 seat room though.
 
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