PK Sound

Re: PK Sound

So...the show was cancelled before I got to hear the boxes rip, but I did get to hear them at a moderate level (100db or so foh). They sounded ok. Not great, not horrible. I wouldn't ever ask for them though, lots of other boxes out there that sound better. However, the fit and finish was very nice. Boxes were well constructed with nice hardware and a pretty aggressive cabinet coating. The tour had been out for 3 months and the boxes had very few battle scars. The flying hardware felt a bit cheap to me, but it did the job and wasn't a nightmare to use. My overall impression was "meh".

-Aaron
 
Re: PK Sound

Aaron Kovacik said:
So...the show was cancelled before I got to hear the boxes rip, but I did get to hear them at a moderate level (100db or so foh). They sounded ok. Not great, not horrible. I wouldn't ever ask for them though, lots of other boxes out there that sound better. However, the fit and finish was very nice. Boxes were well constructed with nice hardware and a pretty aggressive cabinet coating. The tour had been out for 3 months and the boxes had very few battle scars. The flying hardware felt a bit cheap to me, but it did the job and wasn't a nightmare to use. My overall impression was "meh".

-Aaron
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So the show was cancelled after the system was loaded in and setup?

Kinda odd-unless an emergency came up.
 
Re: PK Sound

Bennett Prescott said:
Skrillex definitely notices when he is supplied with a quality PA and monitoring system. It is certainly about large LF output, but the requirements for the rest of the PA are reasonable - perhaps less than your average rock act. Whether you like it or not is up to you, of course, but judging from the attendees it helps if you do a lot of drugs first (of course, you could say the same about many genres near and dear to my heart).
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I had my cranky pants on yesterday. I am happy that Skrillex notices the difference and, apparently, lets the provider know his appreciation.

Many EDM performers I've encountered have very little understanding of how gain structure in their own sound generating and mixing gear works so that what reaches the provided system is already well into the "GI" category audio wise.

BUT as implied in my original comment, it the audience likes it and the performer feels they have adequate tools to reach that audience, the social contract between them is fulfilled. What I perceive as "quality" truly doesn't matter to THEM.

Work is created for many local providers by these acts and that too is a GOOD thing.

I will now take my old sound guy ears and mix a show that will seldom top 100db at the mix position ;-)
 
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Re: PK Sound

Ivan Beaver said:
So the show was cancelled after the system was loaded in and setup?

Kinda odd-unless an emergency came up.
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The show was cancelled morning of due to venue zoning conflicts with the city. Load in was mostly done and the artist asked to do a rehearsal in the space since they were almost setup. 3 hours later we loaded out.
-Aaron
 
Re: PK Sound

Lee Brenkman said:
"datsik, excision, skrillex, etc"

I truly hope that these bands and their audiences have a good time together. As far as I can tell, audio QUALITY is not a particularly high priority in their enjoyment. As long as its loud and overbearingly bassy, they're happy.

It is a "social contract" between band and listener. If they all have a good time and no one gets hurt, go ahead.

But DON'T try to tell me that its "GOOD sound"
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Yes the do Lee.. actually they do on some of the best sound systems ever deployed in the world at some of the largest gatherings of people in the world...

Your opinion of music doesn't matter to me :)
 
Re: PK Sound

Jeff Kenney said:
Yes the do Lee.. actually they do on some of the best sound systems ever deployed in the world at some of the largest gatherings of people in the world...

Your opinion of music doesn't matter to me :)
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If by "they" you mean the performer/programmers you may have a point. If you mean the audiences I still think the other aspects of those "largest gatherings" are more important to them than the audio quality.

That opinion, like my opinion of music and my PERSONAL observation of the audio quality at, admittedly smaller EDM gatherings, is just that, MY opinion.

It shouldn't matter to you.

If you are a provider doing good work for the kind of music and events you enjoy and making a living doing it you are very fortunate.
 
I was in a club.

They played a classic rock track and it sounded fine with the sub level fairly even with the tops.

Then they played a modern rock song and you could definitely hear the LF was hyped in the recording.

Then they played EDM and it sounded like the subs were hitting maximum excursion, except the noise was actually coming from where the tops were.

The sound of overdriven subs was recorded into the track.

Later another EDM track sounded just like a one note sub system installed in a small auto. Boom buzz. Yep recorded in the track.

If the point of an install is to faithfully reproduce what is played through it, someone was extremely successful with this one.
 
Re: PK Sound

Lee Brenkman said:
If by "they" you mean the performer/programmers you may have a point. If you mean the audiences I still think the other aspects of those "largest gatherings" are more important to them than the audio quality.
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There is a reason people go to "see" a show, and seldom say "I heard the XYZ show"- as a sound engineer and designer of speaker systems much as I'd like to believe audio quality is high on peoples list, it just ain't.

And the genre matters little, though as we age we complain about everything more- "it's too crowded, hot, cold, noisy, bassy, wet, dry, too hard to get to..."

Art
 
Re: PK Sound

Lee Brenkman said:
If by "they" you mean the performer/programmers you may have a point. If you mean the audiences I still think the other aspects of those "largest gatherings" are more important to them than the audio quality.

That opinion, like my opinion of music and my PERSONAL observation of the audio quality at, admittedly smaller EDM gatherings, is just that, MY opinion.
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Lee, obviously you have not been to one of the events my company does sound for. Those of you in the SF Bay Area can come check out a variety of systems at the next HOW WEIRD STREET FAIRE. Know:Audio is doing 2 stages, one with Danley TH-115's and SH46's, and another with SH-50's over Bassmaxx Trips. There will also be a Void system attending, a Nexo Geo S rig, and more. I hear PK Sound (my new local competitors) are doing a stage as well. Should be a good time to come hear the wide variety of dance music sound systems in your area. A visit might partially change your mind about the sound quality at some of these events, though I'm pretty certain won't help with your opinion of the music ;)

FWIW the dance music clubs in our area have some of the best systems in the SF Bay Area. 1015 Folsom (one of my venues), Monarch (with an excellent Void install done by Nathan Short), Harlot (a JK Sound install), Vessel (Sound Investments Funktion One), and Mezzanine (Funktion One for dance, EAW line array for live) all have pretty great sound.
 
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Re: PK Sound

Tim, I suppose if your definition of “little better than crack heads with a tablesaw” equates to 2 Professional Engineers, 2 Electrical Engineering graduates (EIT’s), a solidworks designer with 5 years experience and a senior software developer with 12 years experience then I guess so….

It’s no secret that we are a young company and there are amazing sound systems on the market developed by the icons of our industry. I respect every one of their achievements, they make damn good gear! I don't believe anything is served by product bashing and am always open to constructive criticism.

It’s also true the product you see on the road, touring the USA with some of the biggest EDM names out there, are some of the first products developed by PK, when we were but a little production house in Canada with an R&D team of one. We think it’s not bad, we know there is always room for improvement and we want to do much better!

Our R&D team has grown dramatically even in this past year and we are passionately perusing the best products we can develop. The next few years will be fun and for those who have an open mind I truly hope we can impress.

Aaron I appreciate your honest review of our products, I hope it wasn't clouded by the type of music or comments here and I still invite you to contact me directly so we can apply the specific details of your feedback =]

One of our current major initiatives is to develop a solid BETA team of industry professionals who can provide, impartial, invaluable feedback.
 
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Re: PK Sound

Pascal.Pincosy said:
Lee, obviously you have not been to one of the events my company does sound for. Those of you in the SF Bay Area can come check out a variety of systems at the next HOW WEIRD STREET FAIRE. Know:Audio is doing 2 stages, one with Danley TH-115's and SH46's, and another with SH-50's over Bassmaxx Trips. There will also be a Void system attending, a Nexo Geo S rig, and more. I hear PK Sound (my new local competitors) are doing a stage as well. Should be a good time to come hear the wide variety of dance music sound systems in your area. A visit might partially change your mind about the sound quality at some of these events, though I'm pretty certain won't help with your opinion of the music ;)

FWIW the dance music clubs in our area have some of the best systems in the SF Bay Area. 1015 Folsom (one of my venues), Monarch (with an excellent Void install done by Nathan Short), Harlot (a JK Sound install), Vessel (Sound Investments Funktion One), and Mezzanine (Funktion One for dance, EAW line array for live) all have pretty great sound.
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Pascal,

I have hear the systems at Mezzanine and Harlot. Both clubs have excellent sound systems with the right tonal and frequency capabilities for the music they present (in the case of Mezzanine I'm speaking of the Funktion One rig). Any quarrel I might have had was with the source material, not the genre but the bad "tracks" and heavily compressed recordings used in the DJ's mix.

You and others providing the sound for these events both indoors and out do good work and seek out the right tools for your job.

But there are some providers who either get the job on the basis of price, hype or the purchasers enchantment with their particular brand of boom and sizzle.

I may not like the end result that emerges from the stages of many EDM artists but I do respect the ones who know the gear and use it effectively. I don't respect the ones who pose and abuse whatever system they are put in control of.

I hope I've always made it clear in my comments that if the connection between artist and audience is successful it is a "good show" but I still have heard less than "good" audio and it isn't always the fault of the gear or the system designer. And I note that in many cases the audience continued dancing and really didn't give a damn.
 
Re: PK Sound

One of things I'm coming to terms with in the club EDM system design/install business is that it seems a good EDM rig should almost be considered "backline" In that it is more about the rig's tone and feel than it is about accuracy.

I can specify and install the best large "varsity-level" rigs (V-Dosc, Meyer, D&B etc.) to manufacturer 'spec and the DJ's and producers are 'dissing it.
Yet the rigs they praise -and I make a point to go listen to (Funktion One, Void, EAW Avalon) are utterly useless when trying to get a good vocal sound and band-mix through it. This is something I struggle with often and seems to bring that "I'm getting too old for this" thought creeping into the back of my mind. I do my best to not succumb to this and try to deliver the best of all worlds to the benefit of the owners, operators and the performers.

This is not to say that the brands I listed above are garbage, just that like anything else they can be installed wrong and in the EDM industry where everything is so focused on a product's name and not the users that manage it this can reflect very badly on a manufacturer.

And it's just not the EDM industry, I just think it's funny that we spend much time on this board stating that it's the "guy behind the desk" that's the primary reason for bad sound, yet as soon as somebody sees one show that sounds bad we all automatically blame the logo on the cabinets! (and every installation worldwide of the same company's product must therefore also be crap!)
-I'll admit I find myself following that train-of-thought often myself (and have to go do pay penance by sitting through 2 hours at a local karaoke bar or something!)

I actually repaired an owner's system by peeling off the EV logos on the dance floor cabinets. The big-city guest DJ's bitched and whined incessantly about his inadequate sound-system. Hasn't had any complaints since and he's won "best dance club" by the local rag for the last 5 years!
 
Re: PK Sound

Club system are and should be tuned for EDM music. It has completely different requirements then a live music, so it is very natural that they are pretty much useless for live music. Think of it as a giant HIFI with the loudness button on. Mostly boom and sizzle. So dont mix those two things. I am not saying that a dance setup can not be used for live music but it will require a totally different DSP setup.
 
Re: PK Sound

Marjan Milosevic said:
Club system are and should be tuned for EDM music. It has completely different requirements then a live music, so it is very natural that they are pretty much useless for live music. Think of it as a giant HIFI with the loudness button on. Mostly boom and sizzle. So dont mix those two things. I am not saying that a dance setup can not be used for live music but it will require a totally different DSP setup.
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I know this, I am just encountering too many large city clubs that aren't 100% dance and the "celebrity-dj-endorsed" sound system doesn't cover the owners needs when they were supposedly sold a very high-priced system to cover those intended needs. -And to top it all off, no amount of DSP adjustments will fix the problems.
Such is life when the designer/installers have probably never dealt with mics beyond the one plugged into the DJM -and why I'm soured to companies that say they can re-invent the wheel because nothing available out there can truly satisfy the needs of EDM like their particular cabinets!
 
Re: PK Sound

Marjan Milosevic said:
Club system are and should be tuned for EDM music. It has completely different requirements then a live music, so it is very natural that they are pretty much useless for live music. Think of it as a giant HIFI with the loudness button on. Mostly boom and sizzle. So dont mix those two things. I am not saying that a dance setup can not be used for live music but it will require a totally different DSP setup.
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One venue in San Francisco that Pascal mentioned in his post, Mezzanine, has two completely different speaker systems, Funktion One for the playback of dance music and EAW line arrays for live music events.

The intricate DSP and switching system that allows them to use the same amplifiers for both systems was, I believe, designed by the folks at JK Sound JK Sound Systems Design
 
Re: PK Sound

Craig Hauber said:
One of things I'm coming to terms with in the club EDM system design/install business is that it seems a good EDM rig should almost be considered "backline" In that it is more about the rig's tone and feel than it is about accuracy.

I can specify and install the best large "varsity-level" rigs (V-Dosc, Meyer, D&B etc.) to manufacturer 'spec and the DJ's and producers are 'dissing it.
Yet the rigs they praise -and I make a point to go listen to (Funktion One, Void, EAW Avalon) are utterly useless when trying to get a good vocal sound and band-mix through it. This is something I struggle with often and seems to bring that "I'm getting too old for this" thought creeping into the back of my mind. I do my best to not succumb to this and try to deliver the best of all worlds to the benefit of the owners, operators and the performers.

This is not to say that the brands I listed above are garbage, just that like anything else they can be installed wrong and in the EDM industry where everything is so focused on a product's name and not the users that manage it this can reflect very badly on a manufacturer.

And it's just not the EDM industry, I just think it's funny that we spend much time on this board stating that it's the "guy behind the desk" that's the primary reason for bad sound, yet as soon as somebody sees one show that sounds bad we all automatically blame the logo on the cabinets! (and every installation worldwide of the same company's product must therefore also be crap!)
-I'll admit I find myself following that train-of-thought often myself (and have to go do pay penance by sitting through 2 hours at a local karaoke bar or something!)

I actually repaired an owner's system by peeling off the EV logos on the dance floor cabinets. The big-city guest DJ's bitched and whined incessantly about his inadequate sound-system. Hasn't had any complaints since and he's won "best dance club" by the local rag for the last 5 years!
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We (the edm community) use quite a bit of Vdosc and D+B. We do not like Meyer..

EDM is very much like alternative of the 90's.. it is a gateway to many different genres / sub genres that all have very clicky followings. Each one of these genres is a very different type of music with different technical requirements.

Hearing over and over people complain about "over compressed" djs music is nothing strict to EDM. I see hip hop and top 40 djs copy each others hard drives of poorly sampled, poorly played back material... 5/10 it is the method of playback that causes poor quality the other 5/10 it is the source files. The main culprit here is the technology djs are using and how they drive it..

I don't tune for "boom and sizzle" when it comes to an EDM system. What I do make sure is there is plenty of mid level and low mid level power handling and solid bass. This typically means large format line arrays or aggressive 3 way boxes that can go well below 100hz. Specifications get a little hazy with this type of music because "peak" doesn't mean much when your program material is aggressive and less dynamic. I have seen the industries best equipment not hold up to the abuse... this is what has lead for specialization for people like terry mac, nathan short, pk sound, avalon, funktion one, void, and other systems and people out there.
 
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Re: PK Sound

Craig Hauber said:
And to top it all off, no amount of DSP adjustments will fix the problems.
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I don't buy that for a minute.

As has been commented in here by others, you can tune a great rig for live music or you can tune a rig for EDM. Now, what you really want to do is be able to do both at the same time. There are a handful of DSP solutions out there (some better than others, and yes I am highly biased ;-) ) that will allow you to set up parallel processing paths. You can tune one path for the live music applications such that anything entering the system via one set of inputs is properly processed for great live music; then you set up a second set of inputs and process them to get the most out of the EDM genre recorded music.

As long as you are dealing with top shelf loudspeakers that can be tuned for either application, there is no reason they can't be tuned to do both at the same time.

In short: Music coming from the DJ rig is properly processed for EDM and music coming from your live console is properly processed for live. This can be done with proper DSP application and it is VERY effective.
 
Re: PK Sound

Jeremy Bridge said:
Tim, I suppose if your definition of “little better than crack heads with a tablesaw” equates to 2 Professional Engineers, 2 Electrical Engineering graduates (EIT’s), a solidworks designer with 5 years experience and a senior software developer with 12 years experience then I guess so….

It’s no secret that we are a young company and there are amazing sound systems on the market developed by the icons of our industry. I respect every one of their achievements, they make damn good gear! I don't believe anything is served by product bashing and am always open to constructive criticism.

It’s also true the product you see on the road, touring the USA with some of the biggest EDM names out there, are some of the first products developed by PK, when we were but a little production house in Canada with an R&D team of one. We think it’s not bad, we know there is always room for improvement and we want to do much better!

Our R&D team has grown dramatically even in this past year and we are passionately perusing the best products we can develop. The next few years will be fun and for those who have an open mind I truly hope we can impress.

Aaron I appreciate your honest review of our products, I hope it wasn't clouded by the type of music or comments here and I still invite you to contact me directly so we can apply the specific details of your feedback =]

One of our current major initiatives is to develop a solid BETA team of industry professionals who can provide, impartial, invaluable feedback.
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Hey Jeremy, I'm not in the market for a line array as I just bought one from another manufacturer but just wanted to tell you to keep up the good work! I've never heard one of your systems but it sounds like you guys are doing well and having some success. Small sound companies like mine need people to make pro-grade, large format products at a reasonable price point, not "what the market can bear" as so many of the big names tend to do. I don't want to pay for your commercial telling people how you make everything from Ipod docks to the biggest sound systems in the world LOL.
 
Re: PK Sound

Josh Millward said:
I don't buy that for a minute.

As has been commented in here by others, you can tune a great rig for live music or you can tune a rig for EDM. Now, what you really want to do is be able to do both at the same time. There are a handful of DSP solutions out there (some better than others, and yes I am highly biased ;-) ) that will allow you to set up parallel processing paths. You can tune one path for the live music applications such that anything entering the system via one set of inputs is properly processed for great live music; then you set up a second set of inputs and process them to get the most out of the EDM genre recorded music.

As long as you are dealing with top shelf loudspeakers that can be tuned for either application, there is no reason they can't be tuned to do both at the same time.

In short: Music coming from the DJ rig is properly processed for EDM and music coming from your live console is properly processed for live. This can be done with proper DSP application and it is VERY effective.
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The main room at 1015 Folsom (which is a 15+ year old pre-Avalon EAW dance system with updated drivers and custom gray-box UX8800 settings) has live bands and DJ's playing on the same system most every weekend. Despite the fact that there is nearly zero acoustic treatment in the room at this time, we get regular compliments from both international touring DJ's and visiting live sound engineers. We use the exact technique you suggest. Oddly enough, most live engineers graphics end up looking very similar to the "dance music" EQ preset.
 
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