Maximum analog snake length

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

Ivan is correct that even these real effects must be kept in perspective. How many signals in that snake need a >20kHz passband? That said, a 5kHz LPF could very easily be audible, so some worst case consumer VCR fed through the snake with high capacitance wiring "could" make an audible difference.

.

And when you get the rolloff-it does not STOP the signal at that freq. The capacitance would provide a 6/dB oct rolloff. So even if it was at 5K, at 10k it would only be 6dB down (depending on how far down you consider it would be at 5K-so it could be more). And from what I have seen of many systems-they are lucky to get to 10K-much less 15 or 20K. So the "effect" would not be what many "assume" it would be. A little HF boost on the console would make it up easily.

One of the common misconceptions in audio is that it starts and stops (both in freq and coverage patterns) quickly-which just simply isn't true. There is a bit of "grey area".

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

And to just "add to the stupidity" -I was just catching up on my synaudcon lists and found this that was posted from another forum.

Where do they find these people-and WHERE do they get these ideas? Everything in the post is WRONG! And he makes a living doing this??????

"I've specifically worked with sound installations for 4 years and most of
them were in gymnasiums. What T Lawrence said sounds right on point. If you
care about the quality of the sound and avoiding "dead"spots DO NOT just
raise the speakers and turn them towards the audience. You really need your
sound waves to be reflected off walls and even possibly the ceiling (if you
can) in order to amplify the sound without having to increase the volume to
a point where "information" is lost i.e. certain words or notes go
completely unrecognizable. I've also found hanging a few smaller speakers
from the ceiling or if there is a grid you can hang some there at 1300.
Personally, in the gymnasiums I used 3-5 hanging EAW SMS5's with a Mackie
subwoofer in the rear of the gymnasium. The amount of people that will be
there also matters. When I hung the speakers they were always facing
towards the walls and the corners of the room. Sometimes I would even have
one facing the floor or the ceiling. Also if able, two subwoofers, one in
each corner of the rear is good if you have a very large crowd. Hope this
helps<<"

 

[Jason Raboin]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

I use 350ft snakes all the time. Attached are often 100ft or more subsnakes and 25-50ft mic cables. If the levels of the source are very low, like an SM57 3ft away from the person talking softly, and you have 6 or 8 of them open at once, at times you can get quite a bit of rizz. For R&R it is not usually an issue because you just don't need that much gain for a singer eating a mic, or a drum, or a guitar speaker. If you can get things up to line levels, then it's totally fine. All that being said, getting rid of all the copper, or going digital with a really exceptional desk, makes a huge difference in the perceived quality. Your audience probably won't notice but you might.

The console is an SC48. I went down the road of doing the upgrade to the stage rack but one rack would give me either 48 in and no outs or 32 in and 16 out. One setup is fine for the touring work and one is fine for the work the console does while off the road. Changing out cards is not an option for me, and two racks is prohibitively expensive. Actually, just one of the remote racks is awfully expensive considering what you get.

Most of the inputs are at a healthy level, and the lead vocal, as I said, will be at line level. Maybe I will look into using active di's instead of passive JDI's if you think that will help avoid "rizz". The mics on instruments are DPA 4099 which have a decent output.

 

[Declan Slater]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

Wow, I'd love to know where those gyms are so I could get those "installs" fixed.

Just goes to show you that some of the folk on the forums are actually insane.

And to just "add to the stupidity" -I was just catching up on my synaudcon lists and found this that was posted from another forum.

Where do they find these people-and WHERE do they get these ideas? Everything in the post is WRONG! And he makes a living doing this??????

"I've specifically worked with sound installations for 4 years and most of
them were in gymnasiums. What T Lawrence said sounds right on point. If you
care about the quality of the sound and avoiding "dead"spots DO NOT just
raise the speakers and turn them towards the audience. You really need your
sound waves to be reflected off walls and even possibly the ceiling (if you
can) in order to amplify the sound without having to increase the volume to
a point where "information" is lost i.e. certain words or notes go
completely unrecognizable..."

 

[Ivan Beaver]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

Wow, I'd love to know where those gyms are so I could get those "installs" fixed.

Just goes to show you that some of the folk on the forums are actually insane.

The speaker they "recommend" is a 6" speaker with a maximum output of 110dB continuous and zero pattern control.

So "bouncing" that off the ceiling is going to get your HOW MUCH? level at the seats?

And I have never seen anything in any book that says you get gain (amplify) by "bouncing" the sound off a wall.

I guess some people just make it up as they go-and yet some other people STILL PAY for their services. How do they stay in business?

It just goes to show-I am sure they call themselves "professional"-yet the actual work they do is not even considered "beginner".

The sad thing is-I have seen this sort of thing all the time. And sadly-on some large projects with large budgets.

It makes you go "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?" But I digress--------------------------------------

It is no wonder that so many people have such low expectations when it comes to sound system performance.

 

[harrybrilljr]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

This has to be a joke....

And to just "add to the stupidity" -I was just catching up on my synaudcon lists and found this that was posted from another forum.

Where do they find these people-and WHERE do they get these ideas? Everything in the post is WRONG! And he makes a living doing this??????

"I've specifically worked with sound installations for 4 years and most of
them were in gymnasiums. What T Lawrence said sounds right on point. If you
care about the quality of the sound and avoiding "dead"spots DO NOT just
raise the speakers and turn them towards the audience. You really need your
sound waves to be reflected off walls and even possibly the ceiling (if you
can) in order to amplify the sound without having to increase the volume to
a point where "information" is lost i.e. certain words or notes go
completely unrecognizable. I've also found hanging a few smaller speakers
from the ceiling or if there is a grid you can hang some there at 1300.
Personally, in the gymnasiums I used 3-5 hanging EAW SMS5's with a Mackie
subwoofer in the rear of the gymnasium. The amount of people that will be
there also matters. When I hung the speakers they were always facing
towards the walls and the corners of the room. Sometimes I would even have
one facing the floor or the ceiling. Also if able, two subwoofers, one in
each corner of the rear is good if you have a very large crowd. Hope this
helps<<"

 

[harrybrilljr]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

I think you are going to be just fine. Lots of worry over nothing really. Go have fun.
There is a compromise on the stage rack issue. Get the 48, and use a 20 pair snake for your returns, all line level.

The console is an SC48. I went down the road of doing the upgrade to the stage rack but one rack would give me either 48 in and no outs or 32 in and 16 out. One setup is fine for the touring work and one is fine for the work the console does while off the road. Changing out cards is not an option for me, and two racks is prohibitively expensive. Actually, just one of the remote racks is awfully expensive considering what you get.

Most of the inputs are at a healthy level, and the lead vocal, as I said, will be at line level. Maybe I will look into using active di's instead of passive JDI's if you think that will help avoid "rizz". The mics on instruments are DPA 4099 which have a decent output.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Maximum analog snake length

I wonder if I google Ivan Beaver, will I get his actual accurate posts, or his sundry reposts of audiophool nonsense.

I try not to repeat nonsense (while I'll quote it to debunk it) and people with poor language skills may have trouble telling when we are being sarcastic.

JR