PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Heck yes. It's widely understood/experienced in the computer tech circles (google is your friend).

Take half a second to stick something in the fan (coffee stirrers work great, dry ones even better) to keep it from freewheeling. The bearing in these things are pretty delicate. And while it may not fail right off the bat, or look visibly damaged, I guarantee you it's life will be severally shortened. Even more fun - it will probably decide to die on you when being stressed. Say from a really heavy and jamming set when the amp has it pumped up to max revs. Is an amp cutting out due to thermal overload during the heaviest part of the show considered bad form? I just realized my crown amps have one fan only on the rear at least. If they do have a front fan is it enough to carry the amp under load? I now will be opening them to blow them out and also explore their redundancy too.

Then again I'm some faceless nobody on the Internet. Why spend half a second exercising due diligence and logic when nothing will probably happen anyway because anecdotally it hasn't happened to anyone you know, right?

Apparently Google is your friend, too. Why not share your incontrovertible proof? I'm willing to be proven wrong. Based on my understanding of physics - wrong as it may be - it seems that a few seconds of spinning at say 10X the normal speed relative to hundreds or thousands of hours at normal speed represents a tiny fraction of fan wear. Even if bearing wear during those few seconds is 10X per revolution due to the force of the air, vibration, etc., that's still a small number.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

I remember that "gunk" well. It has a "unique" smell.

When I was in DC-I did gigs that the secret service would have to "sweep" the room with dogs before people were let in.

Everytime the dogs would focus in on my amp racks. I would have to go through and prove that each amp was working and show them the wiring etc.

My guess is that the "smell" from the bars was a smell that the dogs did not recognize and they didn't know what to do.

YEAH-it would clog up amps pretty quick. My MA2400's could only do 1 or 2 gigs before I would have to clean the filters.

And a little bit of dust when mixed with the "gunk" would be like cotton balls dipped in oil and rolled around on the floor.

Those were the days.

We used to have the dogs Key on our Custom Big Boy Speaker cabinets every time we did a gig at the White House. Finally figured out that the glue that we used to recone the JBL drivers shared certain chemical traits with explosive materials.

Given that these cabinets were horn loaded and about the size of an S4 It was a major PITA to take them apart sufficiently to satisfy the Secret Service guys since they certainly were big enough to hide Very Bad Things in. The one time we weren't even going to use them. They just happened to be in the nose of the truck. Good Times.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

I don't think dismantling is an option anymore.

We used to have the dogs Key on our Custom Big Boy Speaker cabinets every time we did a gig at the White House. Finally figured out that the glue that we used to recone the JBL drivers shared certain chemical traits with explosive materials.

Given that these cabinets were horn loaded and about the size of an S4 It was a major PITA to take them apart sufficiently to satisfy the Secret Service guys since they certainly were big enough to hide Very Bad Things in. The one time we weren't even going to use them. They just happened to be in the nose of the truck. Good Times.
 

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Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Apparently Google is your friend, too. Why not share your incontrovertible proof? I'm willing to be proven wrong. Based on my understanding of physics - wrong as it may be - it seems that a few seconds of spinning at say 10X the normal speed relative to hundreds or thousands of hours at normal speed represents a tiny fraction of fan wear. Even if bearing wear during those few seconds is 10X per revolution due to the force of the air, vibration, etc., that's still a small number.

how well does your car do for a few seconds at 10X its max speed? :)

Sometimes when you google something it's not one particular link that tells you you're right or wrong, it's the quantity of links that agree with eachother. the act of googling isn't always about finding "incontrovertible proof" but in finding a ton of evidence and making your own conclusion.

Jason
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Incredibly naive question: How effective, useful, PITA, or damaging can fitting some furnace-filter type-material over the fan (back to front forced air ala QSC) or over intake grilles (for front-to back drawn air cooking - ala Crown). Yeah, airflow would be reduced and need attention much more often than blowing out the unit (especially a fan filter).

Thank God I'm in a non-smoking situation. I know that gunk.
As the foam fills with dust it reduces air flow considerably, so it needs frequent cleaning in dirty air.
In the smoky bar scene, foam could clog up completely in a few months, blocking all air flow.
Foam can be useful for keeping larger stuff like floating tree debris out of the amps.

My take is it is less pain to blow the amps out once a year (or so) than to clean foam several times a year.
I have removed foam filters on all the amps I have ever owned after experiencing amps thermal out when the foam became clogged.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

how well does your car do for a few seconds at 10X its max speed? :)
Pretty sure that's a different problem. :) The part that is similar - the wheel bearings - I'm pretty confident those would be fine.
Sometimes when you google something it's not one particular link that tells you you're right or wrong, it's the quantity of links that agree with eachother. the act of googling isn't always about finding "incontrovertible proof" but in finding a ton of evidence and making your own conclusion.

Jason
Sometimes when you Google something and get a lot of answers that agree with each other - none of which offer any proof other than "Don't do this or a bad thing will happen", it's just a lot of folks repeating what they've heard. For reference, see the whole "underpowering damages speakers" nonsense.

My "conclusion", based on a couple decades of computer/IT experience as well as blowing more than a few amps out with canned air/compressed air, is that this is a non-issue unless you're intentionally being an idiot, and even then I suspect it's pretty hard to wreck the fan. It is quite easy to blow out whatever junk needs blowing without making the fan spin at 100,000 RPM, and if the fan sounds or feels different after doing so - which I have experienced - the change is due to blowing out some of the crud and exposing bearings that have been worn from many hours of use, not a few seconds of spinning due to compressed air once a year.

I couldn't care less if some of you feel like you're making a positive difference in the world, saving one fan at a time. Good for you. My larger point was the silliness of the combined recommendations of this thread - don't blow, don't suck, don't touch, etc. What's better - doing reasonable maintenance on your gear, or leaving it full of gunk because you're afraid to touch it?
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Pretty sure that's a different problem. :) The part that is similar - the wheel bearings - I'm pretty confident those would be fine.
An interesting hypothetical. A car traveling at 1200+ MPH would surely have multiple issues. As a kid I recall a similar "stupid human trick" where we would spin up an actual car wheel bearing with a high pressure air hose. This was also advised against, perhaps because it was fun too.
Sometimes when you Google something and get a lot of answers that agree with each other - none of which offer any proof other than "Don't do this or a bad thing will happen", it's just a lot of folks repeating what they've heard. For reference, see the whole "underpowering damages speakers" nonsense.

My "conclusion", based on a couple decades of computer/IT experience as well as blowing more than a few amps out with canned air/compressed air, is that this is a non-issue unless you're intentionally being an idiot, and even then I suspect it's pretty hard to wreck the fan. It is quite easy to blow out whatever junk needs blowing without making the fan spin at 100,000 RPM, and if the fan sounds or feels different after doing so - which I have experienced - the change is due to blowing out some of the crud and exposing bearings that have been worn from many hours of use, not a few seconds of spinning due to compressed air once a year.
I would be more concerned about a real high pressure air hose, not some poofy canned air. I have never broken a fan with an air hose, but I have never spun one up to see how fast it would go. I guess I got that kind of thing out of my system growing up with an (air) compressor in the garage.
I couldn't care less if some of you feel like you're making a positive difference in the world, saving one fan at a time. Good for you. My larger point was the silliness of the combined recommendations of this thread - don't blow, don't suck, don't touch, etc. What's better - doing reasonable maintenance on your gear, or leaving it full of gunk because you're afraid to touch it?

In true WWW fashion, pick and choose what advice you wish to listen to. If I catch you spinning up fans on my amps, you're off the island. Strictly because it is outside the fans target design spec. In my experience as a design engineer making ASSumptions about how components will work, beyond their nominal specifications, can get you into expensive situations.

JR

PS: This may be a little like the popular mythology of turn-on thumps blowing up speakers. Just like we don't find cat skeletons up in trees, I have not personally experienced fans broken by compressed air cleaning, but I still do not endorse spinning them up. There are too many different variant fan types out there to make a definitive statement about all of them.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

In my previous job servicing LCD projectors, I often had to clear out immense amounts of chalk dust that had accumulated in the fans. In one particular model, it had 3 of the little squirrel cage style fans. If you blasted those with air and let them spin freely, it would either kill them completely or they would make an obnoxious buzzing sound. It happened about 50% of the time.

Since then I've concluded it's a lot easier just to throw something to jam the blades while cleaning stuff than deal witha fan replacement.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

An interesting hypothetical. A car traveling at 1200+ MPH was advised against, perhaps because it was fun. I have never spun one up to see how fast it would go. I guess I got that kind of thing out of my system growing up with an island in the garage. In my experience, the popular mythology of a high pressure design engineer can get you into expensive situations. We don't find cat skeletons up in trees but I still endorse spinning them up. There are too many different ASS components beyond their nominal specifications.

In true WWW fashion, pick and choose what advice you wish to listen to.

RJ

And which order to listen to them in.

btw, I think cat's are far too tasty to leave up in trees. But the visual has now stuck.

Also, it won't be long before we don't even have fans to worry about (except in our folsum video switchers; they will always have loud obnoxious fans).
 
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Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Funny, but maybe you should change my name to roberts john in the quote tag, so slower WEBees get the joke and don't think I actually wrote that.

The thought of spinning cats up into trees holds some slight attraction. I found a dead cat in the ditch in front of my house last week where he landed, on his feet, after being hit by a car. Looked like he was taken for a "spin" (legs were splayed out, and stiff from rigor). I guess I could have stuck him up in a tree and he woul;d have stayed up there, but the neighbor kids came around to collect him and give him a proper burial.

JR

PS: Fans for 1u rack mount amps like early class D were a PIA. Regular fans scaled down that small whined like a sewing machine and didn't move much air. 1u blowers moved more air but required odd air flow patterns. The new generation of class D amps are more efficient thanks to device (speed) and device packaging advancements (lower thermal resistance), but cooling 1u packages remains a struggle. 2u is the happy (cheap) size for power amps.
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

FI found a dead cat in the ditch in front of my house last week where he landed, on his feet, after being hit by a car. Looked like he was taken for a "spin" (legs were splayed out, and stiff from rigor). I guess I could have stuck him up in a tree and he woul;d have stayed up there, but the neighbor kids came around to collect him and give him a proper burial.

This reminds me of a meme making the rounds on Facebook...
 

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Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Come to think of it, there was a full moon last week. Critters are often more active or less alert (lunatic) then.

That possum may just be playing dead. I recall seeing the pix of dillo's propped up with a red bandana wrapped around their neck.

JR
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Funny, but maybe you should change my name to roberts john in the quote tag, so slower WEBees get the joke and don't think I actually wrote that.
Yeah, sorry about that. That would have made sense.

The thought of spinning cats up into trees holds some slight attraction. I found a dead cat in the ditch in front of my house last week where he landed, on his feet, after being hit by a car. Looked like he was taken for a "spin" (legs were splayed out, and stiff from rigor). I guess I could have stuck him up in a tree and he woul;d have stayed up there, but the neighbor kids came around to collect him and give him a proper burial.
I'm actually more of a cat person than a dog person. I know why I don't like dogs but I haven't figured out why I kind of like cats. Could be the sweet-n-sour sauce.

JR

PS: Fans for 1u rack mount amps like early class D were a PIA. Regular fans scaled down that small whined like a sewing machine and didn't move much air. 1u blowers moved more air but required odd air flow patterns. The new generation of class D amps are more efficient thanks to device (speed) and device packaging advancements (lower thermal resistance), but cooling 1u packages remains a struggle. 2u is the happy (cheap) size for power amps.

Agreed. I remember thinking (during my young man years when I played around with amplifier design ideas) that toroids would make it easier to do single space but even that doesn't work so well. If we had ended up with 2" rack spaces instead of what we have it might be a little different. And to be honest, this fascination with single space high power amps doesn't make sense to me. I think 2-space 4 channel amps should be the norm.
 
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Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Yeah, sorry about that. That would have made sense.
so fix it...
I'm actually more of a cat person than a dog person. I know why I don't like dogs but I haven't figured out why I kind of like cats. Could be the sweet-n-sour sauce.
I've met cats and dogs I like, cats and dogs I don't like. These days I don't have much use for either, but they still like to end up dead on my property, with no help from me.
Agreed. I remember thinking (during my young man years when I played around with amplifier design ideas) that toroids would make it easier to do single space but even that doesn't work so well. If we had ended up with 2" rack spaces instead of what we have it might be a little different. And to be honest, this fascination with single space high power amps doesn't make sense to me. I think 2-space 4 channel amps make more sense.

We made a nice 1U passive cooled amp using a large torroid while that class AB amp was limited to 75W or so.

I was a proponent of IU class D amps because of the sex appeal of putting 1kW in 1U. It was already going to be an expensive amp, so saving $5 with the fan was not a game changer. only in recent years has the class D technology crossed over into being cost effective and not a novelty amp at mass market power points.

I wanted to make a 4ch class D amp with a digital crossover all in 2u.. unfortunately a little ahead of it's time (for either part), especially with my luddite distribution channel. :-(

JR
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Were you involved with the DPC750/1000?

so fix it...

I've met cats and dogs I like, cats and dogs I don't like. These days I don't have much use for either, but they still like to end up dead on my property, with no help from me.


We made a nice 1U passive cooled amp using a large torroid while that class AB amp was limited to 75W or so.

I was a proponent of IU class D amps because of the sex appeal of putting 1kW in 1U. It was already going to be an expensive amp, so saving $5 with the fan was not a game changer. only in recent years has the class D technology crossed over into being cost effective and not a novelty amp at mass market power points.

I wanted to make a 4ch class D amp with a digital crossover all in 2u.. unfortunately a little ahead of it's time (for either part), especially with my luddite distribution channel. :-(

JR
 
Re: PSA: Blow it out yer amps!

Were you involved with the DPC750/1000?

Who wants to know? :) Just kidding. No I was not directly involved in the design but later when I got involved with product management for all power amps, it became one of my product responsibilities, (around the time of the DPC 1000). But I know a lot of the history and drama surrounding Peavey's long investment in class D technology.

Even though Class D is not really digital, at Peavey it was engineered by the digital group while all the other amplifiers were engineered by the analog group. To put it as kindly as possible there was an in house rivalry between the digital and analog groups so they didn't play together well... the decades of amp experience and judgement resident in the analog group did not get drawn upon in the early class D amps, some of which were hand grenades.

When I first took over the DPC program and became the official cheerleader I was surprised by a few things I learned about it. Apparently the DPC engineers thought it was a good idea to fold back the voltage gain when it got too hot. They were told that it was unacceptable to shut down, so this was their solution. Of course in live sound use, this was almost worse. These amps were popular for use in monitor rigs, and when the gain dropped drown, they would just turn it up again, then sometime later when the amp cooled down, the gain would jump back up and feedback city. I had them stop that nonsense immediately (instead I had them switch the fan to higher speed when hot but leave the gain alone).

Yes, I was a supporter of the 1u configuration. It was never going to be a cheap amp, so it needed some sex appeal. Despite the digital boys claiming they could make it cheaper, I had an open engineering project to make class D power module to use with top-box powered mixers. After a few years of piddling on the bench it never hit the price targets.

My idea to combine 4 CH of DPC with a 2x4 digital crossover was based on another quirk of the DPC topology. Without getting into too much of the technology the DPC performed the PWM by phase shifting one square wave relative to a second square wave. In a 4 channel power amp I could use the one master 1kW square wave, and then draw the 4 outputs in any combination of power that added up to 1kW. Keep in mind this was around 20 years ago so even the digital crossover was not a mature technology back then. This would have been a champagne product, for a beer and peanuts distribution, so not a very good match. It took me a while to figure that out, but after I did I had some successful products there.

Big on bang for the buck, light on sizzle was the recipe for success.

JR