bad install

C

Craig Hauber

Sophomore
Jan 20, 2011
242
1
18
53
Between Williston ND and Plentywood MT
www.mondaksound.com
I found this hanging in the gym I just did a graduation setup in. There's 7 in total. Done by a "properly licensed A/V design-install firm" like we always recommend people seek when they post on this board.
(I really think we are handing that qualification out way too easily!)
IMG_2287.jpg

They appear to be self-powered boxes and they are hung by the thinnest cable I've ever seen off of a carabiner and a single beam-clamp. (yes I know the cable is probably adequately rated, but at least make something look even stronger if it's in front of a large amount of the public all the time.)

There's so much wrong with the install but for starters even a crappy "line array" box when used itself has such an undefined vertical coverage pattern that it should be almost unpredictable. Lets not even consider the fact that they added eyebolts to a box and ignored it's own rigging system (a bumper?)

Shame that 4 Community R-series would do the room for so much less installation trouble and cost. (Even JBL has an R-series equivalent now in their install catalog.)
 
Re: bad install

Actually, it looks fine, and I've heard the JBL's they aren't bad. I've actually heard a shoot out between the two in a space looking to get an upgrade and They went with the JBL's due to them being able to put out quite a bit more clear volume than the Communities. I've never heard a community system that I like. That said yeah their rigging isn't quite up to snuff but it gets the job done safely.
 
Re: bad install

Craig Hauber said:
It's an M.I.-grade single VRX box very mis-applied (line array element used singly!?)
-with holes drilled in it (!) and eyebolts added!
Click to expand...

FWIW, it's not a line array element. It is a vertically arrayable point source speaker. It is used as a single speaker as often as arrayed. It even has a pole mount socket for use as a single speaker. It also has 10mm sockets for eyebolts for rigging.

Mac
 
Re: bad install

mackerr said:
FWIW, it's not a line array element. It is a vertically arrayable point source speaker. It is used as a single speaker as often as arrayed. It even has a pole mount socket for use as a single speaker. It also has 10mm sockets for eyebolts for rigging.

Mac
Click to expand...

well I guess I'll eat crow on this one then.

-It still looked liked crap and sounded just as bad as it looked. (too much comb filtering and energy bouncing around up in the ceiling structure)
 
Re: bad install

Jordan Lahr said:
Actually, it looks fine, and I've heard the JBL's they aren't bad. I've actually heard a shoot out between the two in a space looking to get an upgrade and They went with the JBL's due to them being able to put out quite a bit more clear volume than the Communities. I've never heard a community system that I like. That said yeah their rigging isn't quite up to snuff but it gets the job done safely.
Click to expand...

I believe I see a quick link, which is NOT fine.
 
Re: bad install

Silas Pradetto said:
I believe I see a quick link, which is NOT fine.
Click to expand...

I can't tell for sure if it is a quick link or a spring loaded carabiner, but it looks like a quick link of guesstimated 8mm dimension, so the SWL should be anything from 500 to 1000 kg. I wouldn't worry, even in a Richter 9 zone.
 
If that is an aluminum climbing caribeaner, then that is a problem. They are rated for a single event, not for fatigue life. Also the literature that comes with them specifically says that they are to be replaced after 5 years regardless of the number of shock events or wear. Also it states that they are for temporary suspension only.

A personal pet peeve of mine is people who use climbing gear to suspend things other than people.

Sent from my neural implant
 
Re: bad install

Honestly Climbing gear is mad to more exact specifications that most rigging hardware that we use daily. I'm not saying they shouldn't replace that with a shackle but it can withhold the weight it is rated at for longer than 5 years. They recommend 5 years to climber due to most climbers not being properly educated in how steel and aluminum wears when constant moving is applied to them as well as rub from rock and rope. There isn't a single device out there that I know of that is rated for overhead lifting.
 
Re: bad install

Jordan Lahr said:
Honestly Climbing gear is mad to more exact specifications that most rigging hardware that we use daily. I'm not saying they shouldn't replace that with a shackle but it can withhold the weight it is rated at for longer than 5 years. They recommend 5 years to climber due to most climbers not being properly educated in how steel and aluminum wears when constant moving is applied to them as well as rub from rock and rope. There isn't a single device out there that I know of that is rated for overhead lifting.
Click to expand...

Uh... perhaps, but climbing gear is not designed for several things, including permanent installations; they should not be used in that way unless specified by an engineer. The use of climbing gear for fall arrest is specifically wrong, also.

Lifting and suspension are different things... subtle but important differences. Chain hoists are rated, cheeseboroughs are rated, wire rope slings and round slings are rated; if not individually then as a class based on meeting certain specifications.

I agree that this install deserves closer inspection.
 
Tim McCulloch said:
Lifting and suspension are different things... subtle but important differences. Chain hoists are rated, cheeseboroughs are rated, wire rope slings and round slings are rated; if not individually then as a class based on meeting certain specifications.

I agree that this install deserves closer inspection.
Click to expand...

Rated for what? Because I know they aren't rated for over head lifting.
 
Jordan Lahr said:
Honestly Climbing gear is mad to more exact specifications that most rigging hardware that we use daily. I'm not saying they shouldn't replace that with a shackle but it can withhold the weight it is rated at for longer than 5 years. They recommend 5 years to climber due to most climbers not being properly educated in how steel and aluminum wears when constant moving is applied to them as well as rub from rock and rope. There isn't a single device out there that I know of that is rated for overhead lifting.
Click to expand...

I am not a mechanical engineer, so I will not make statements concerning the expected life time of the pictured system. I can say that it falls outside of what I was taught to be safe practices for rigging.

Climbing gear is designed to be strong enough and to be as lightweight as possible. Therefore much or it is made from high strength aluminum alloys that have great strength to weight ratio, but terrible fatigue life. What that means is, that if you apply a constant load to the device, well below the breaking point, eventually due to internal stresses, the device will fail. This process is accelerated by stressing and unstressing the device, like what happens when using it for climbing. THAT is why aluminum climbing gear has a five year use life. There are tests that can be used to recertify aluminum devices, however; these tests coat more then replacing the device.


Also the WLL rating on the equipment we use for overhead lifting is in no way related to the stress limit testing used for climbing gear. The 27kN rating on a caribeaner means that it can withstand a force of 27 kN once. After that one event it is understood that it will be destroyed and thrown away.

Lastly, if you do use climbing gear for overhead suspension and something does happen, it will take five minutes to find an engineer to testify against you.

Sent from my neural implant
 
Re: bad install

To me it looks like a beam clamp that is rated for 500 kg overhead, a quick link that is rated for 400-800 kg overhead, four wires rated at 200-250 kg. It doesn't look like climbing gear, and why on earth would anyone use a piece of climbing gear in amongst stuff that is obviously sourced from the right place? As far as I know you don't get beam clamps and steel wire in sports shop.
I don't know if anything is fastened right and that the wire is assembled right or anything like that, but we are talking about a SWL of twenty times the weight of the speaker here. If this isn't good enough, what is?
If we assume that it is not assembled right, than we can assume that everything we come across is faulty. While that is a fair assumption to make if we are handling or moving the stuff or in anyway interfering with, loading it extra or indeed inspecting, it is not a fair assumption to make based on pure speculation about the possible incompetence of whoever installed the system.
 
Last edited:
If that is a quick link, then I would have no problems with that install. To me that looks like a climbing caribeaner, but in that image its 5 pixels wide so its difficult to tell.

Sent from my neural implant
 
Re: bad install

Charles Harrigan said:
If that is a quick link, then I would have no problems with that install. To me that looks like a climbing caribeaner, but in that image its 5 pixels wide so its difficult to tell.

Sent from my neural implant
Click to expand...

There is also such a thing as a locking STEEL caribiner. We used to use those when rigging speakers all the time. These were very much NOT climbing gear. in fact, they were the recommended device straight from our good friends at ATM. Their weight rating was something ridiculous that i can't recall, but we suspended KF850's 4 and 5 deep off them routinely and we were never ones to cut corners, so i suspect their rating was well over 2000 pounds with a 5:1 safety ratio. probably enough to hold up this speaker.

Now, is that 'biner STEEL? got me. But they do exist....
 
Top Bottom