EQ sweeping

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: EQ sweeping

this statement should have been in your first post

i would guess you are not 55 nor have you been at this
most of 4 decades...


guys like that get my undivided attention for
about 30 seconds [this is important]

couple of knob hovers while exhibiting your best
sound guy concentration face
bump the volume audibly [couple db, dont sting him... yet]
then look up with full focus on the muso
[you didn know you had to be a psychology major i guess]

when he says it's better take half your headroom back

you'r now a audio god

ultimately
if you only have one grief guy in a marathon day

...you win

fwiw

I will remember that for next time, i should have done that for sure. lol. I am 40 years old, and have had a business of sound rental since 2009,2010. but i have been in music all my life , the biggest majority of it playing it instead of working the board.

 

[Jimmy Hardin]

Re: EQ sweeping

The issue there is most likely not a house EQ problem but rather a channel strip EQ problem. All kinds of nasty things tend to stack up in that range. Just about every mic on stage is picking up stage slosh in that range for starters. The next fact is almost every instrument has a fundamental tone or at least a harmonic in that range. Messy messy and that is before we factor in the Fletcher–Munson curve of human hearing boost in that range. The one thing you really don't want to do is cut those frequencies out of the lead vocal, that is where much of the fullness and body is. Pull it out of everything else if you do any cutting.

For starters pull out ALL of that range on the tom mics and everything below 10k on any drum overheads or hi hat mics you are using. This alone will clean up a noticeable amount of garbage in your mix. Ease a few db out of the snare drum at around 400hz until you are happy with the sound. This will leave the crack of the top and the body of the bottom intact and tend to step on the vocal less.

You can scoop out a few db on the guitars for vocal clarity in that range but I usually center the frequency for that between 500hz and 800hz depending on the guitar tone.

For kik drum I usually make the really deep cut somewhere centered around 240hz (which will reach up a little to the 400hz range depending on the Q). You are trying to get rid of the mud and flop just below that and the cardboard sound just above that while leaving the fullness and the attack.

These are just some starters that will help you clean up the mix a bit without putting a hole in the midrange. If you system is just hot at 400hz and 500hz then never mind.

I'll try that and see if it's too hot or not at that range, my eq's are setuo for over all mix instead of just each individual thing.

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: EQ sweeping

The issue there is most likely not a house EQ problem but rather a channel strip EQ problem. All kinds of nasty things tend to stack up in that range. Just about every mic on stage is picking up stage slosh in that range for starters. The next fact is almost every instrument has a fundamental tone or at least a harmonic in that range. Messy messy and that is before we factor in the Fletcher–Munson curve of human hearing boost in that range. The one thing you really don't want to do is cut those frequencies out of the lead vocal, that is where much of the fullness and body is. Pull it out of everything else if you do any cutting.

For starters pull out ALL of that range on the tom mics and everything below 10k on any drum overheads or hi hat mics you are using. This alone will clean up a noticeable amount of garbage in your mix. Ease a few db out of the snare drum at around 400hz until you are happy with the sound. This will leave the crack of the top and the body of the bottom intact and tend to step on the vocal less.

You can scoop out a few db on the guitars for vocal clarity in that range but I usually center the frequency for that between 500hz and 800hz depending on the guitar tone.

For kik drum I usually make the really deep cut somewhere centered around 240hz (which will reach up a little to the 400hz range depending on the Q). You are trying to get rid of the mud and flop just below that and the cardboard sound just above that while leaving the fullness and the attack.

These are just some starters that will help you clean up the mix a bit without putting a hole in the midrange. If you system is just hot at 400hz and 500hz then never mind.

You're pretty much taking the mid range grunt out of everything and leaving a lot of boom, sizzle and midrange harshness. There's multiple ways to address muddy stages, but I wouldn't go about sacrificing my FOH mix to clean up the monitors. I usually find the most issues down lower, around 160-300hz. That 500-800hz ranges serves a pretty important roll in a lot of instruments, and I really don't want to lose it out front. And ironically, I usually cut quite a bit of 500hz out of my vocals, especially if they're using a 58. The 10k rolloff on OH's and Hat seems a bit extreme too, as a lot of MI speakers really won't do much above 10k- I'd suggest a roll off around 500hz, and a few cuts as needed along the way to clean them up.


Once you get rid of the annoying stuff down low, you'd be surprised how nice the mid range sounds!



Evan

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: EQ sweeping

I'll try that and see if it's too hot or not at that range, my eq's are setuo for over all mix instead of just each individual thing.

I am referring to the mid band channel strip EQ. I believe yours will sweep from 100hz to 8k.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: EQ sweeping

You're pretty much taking the mid range grunt out of everything and leaving a lot of boom, sizzle and midrange harshness. There's multiple ways to address muddy stages, but I wouldn't go about sacrificing my FOH mix to clean up the monitors. I usually find the most issues down lower, around 160-300hz. That 500-800hz ranges serves a pretty important roll in a lot of instruments, and I really don't want to lose it out front. And ironically, I usually cut quite a bit of 500hz out of my vocals, especially if they're using a 58. The 10k rolloff on OH's and Hat seems a bit extreme too, as a lot of MI speakers really won't do much above 10k- I'd suggest a roll off around 500hz, and a few cuts as needed along the way to clean them up.


Once you get rid of the annoying stuff down low, you'd be surprised how nice the mid range sounds!



Evan

I thought we WERE talking about mains. This is just one approach and it will definitely clean and tighten up the overall mix and showcase the vocals. Those boards are very limited with the channel strip EQ being only 3 band with a mid sweep. My experience with them is the EQ does not sound very good when you start boosting. This is more a classic rock and country style of mix and we are talking JV equipment. Of course it will depend on the microphone technique and the mics themselves and the tuning of the instruments but I have found it to hold true in most of those situations. We are talking small stages and smaller systems. The amount of garbage coming through the drum mics will usually account for almost half of the lack of clarity. The 10k overhead and hi hat thing just adds a little sizzle to the cymbals if needed. 10k is usually the top shelving band on those type of boards as well (12k on the Behringer sx2442fx). Remember we are dealing with a lot of stage volume and bleed from the cymbals on these smaller shows. I am also presuming there are no noise gates in use on the toms.

That 500hz to 800hz range is an important part of EVERY instrument but you can't have it all competing for the same spot at once and expect any kind of clarity at all. I am suggesting very slight scoops in different parts of that range except for the drums to make a little room for the vocals. Virtually every classic rock and country record is mixed with elements of that technique. The other thing is stage volume accounts for a significant part of your overall sound as you do smaller and smaller gigs in the JV world. The term sound "reinforcement" has a real meaning at that level.

Those are good points about the low end problems as well but those boards can't really address that very well except for the 100hz low cut filter and a low shelf at 80hz. The mid is a wide bell curve and really does not work for things like that. It is all a compromise at that level of board but you can still get a good sound with what you have to work with all things considered.

This is not addressed at you Evan because I know you use speaker delay but for everyone else if you have the capability of delaying the mains to the backline it goes a long long way in cleaning up the overall sound and makes it where you are not competing for stage volume with the actual instruments but rather reinforcing them as needed.

 

[Jay Barracato]

You're pretty much taking the mid range grunt out of everything and leaving a lot of boom, sizzle and midrange harshness. There's multiple ways to address muddy stages, but I wouldn't go about sacrificing my FOH mix to clean up the monitors. I usually find the most issues down lower, around 160-300hz. That 500-800hz ranges serves a pretty important roll in a lot of instruments, and I really don't want to lose it out front. And ironically, I usually cut quite a bit of 500hz out of my vocals, especially if they're using a 58. The 10k rolloff on OH's and Hat seems a bit extreme too, as a lot of MI speakers really won't do much above 10k- I'd suggest a roll off around 500hz, and a few cuts as needed along the way to clean them up.


Once you get rid of the annoying stuff down low, you'd be surprised how nice the mid range sounds!



Evan

Even on MI systems, I think just about all of this is true. One of my best hints for dealing with mud is to think of cutting harmonic sequences instead of single frequencies. Instead of cutting 500 by 6 db, try cutting 250, 500, 1000 by 2 db, and then sneaking a little of the top sequences back into the mix. I usually find the mud is where multiple sources all have first or second harmonics.

 

[Eric Cagle]

Re: EQ sweeping

Even on MI systems, I think just about all of this is true. One of my best hints for dealing with mud is to think of cutting harmonic sequences instead of single frequencies. Instead of cutting 500 by 6 db, try cutting 250, 500, 1000 by 2 db, and then sneaking a little of the top sequences back into the mix. I usually find the mud is where multiple sources all have first or second harmonics.

This is very true about harmonics. Feedback and room resonances often have a noticeable component at the 2nd harmonic (2x fundamental frequency) and sometimes a bit at the 3rd harmonic. I used to notice this a lot during the days of using a RTA. Sometimes it will be the harmonic that is actually taking off and resonating more. That is why the cut at 1/2 the frequency will often tame it up the line. The problem fundamental resonance is often actually lower and is exciting other things at the harmonics. I believe that is a correct explanation. I have not taken physics in years.