Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
Dear Bob,

thank you too for your comment.

Output stages.
I would have to check what circuitry has been applied for in the ADA8000. In general we use servo-balanced output stages which provide for a 6 dB gain adjustment if pin 2 or 3 are tied to ground. It is possible that the ADA8000 uses a simple inverter for the balanced output stage due to the fact that the unit does not have (shorting) TRS outputs.
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The current ADA8000 does not use the type of circuit you mention. That's the problem.

However in contrast to the TL072, the 4580 which we're now using in the new ADA8200 can drive loads up to 50 mA which should resolve any issues you might have encountered.
All our designs feature current-limiting output resistors of around 100 Ohms.
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While that opamp is a bit beefier, you still can drive its output into current limiting with only a 100 ohm resistor. I would suggest raise this value to 470 ohms. That would give you a theoretical 32ma max current draw on a full rail swing.

Gain VR linearity.
This (common) problem has been resolved with a Midas-designed preamp which uses a stereo VR with laser-trimmed carbon tracks.
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That should fix it.

Clocking issue.
I am not familiar with any clocking problem but I am happy to feed this information back to our R&D department in Germany. Perhaps you could drop me an personal note here so we can better understand how to replicate this issue.

Thank you for your valuable input!
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Please advise on how I can contact you personally (via a PM)

Bob
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Jeff Babcock said:
You do realize that the cost of a good road-worthy PC, good ASIO device(s) like RME, some sort of fader banks, racks of ADA preamps, plus your SAC license fee is probably equal to or greater than the cost of an X32 plus digital snake package, and the X32 solves 99% of the SAC limitations/common complaints such as remote controlled preamps, control surface, speed of navigation, user friendliness, ultra low latency, etc. It also will likely be more reliable than a PC based rig. SAC's big selling point has typically been the significant cost savings, but I think the X32 brings an end to that argument.
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My current SAC rig has been 100% reliable for several years. It has more flexibility (more channels, more routing options, more control options, etc...) than the X32 does. At a corporate, I can create outputs to multiple rooms and put control points in each room for the price of a netbook. There's a whole lot of stuff I can do that I can't do with an X32 (though I could do it with a much more expensive digital board). In fact, for some of the things I do with SAC, I'd need several X32 boards for. So the X32 doesn't come out cheaper. It does have some other advantages.

That said, I'm looking at the X32 also -- you're right that it would cover 95% (probably not 99%) of my needs. And it doesn't need a specially trained operator. What I'd really like to do is use a pair of S16s as a stage box, and hook it to an X32 when appropriate, and a SAC system when I need the greater flexibility and have my own staff running things.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Jim King said:
My current SAC rig has been 100% reliable for several years. It has more flexibility (more channels, more routing options, more control options, etc...) than the X32 does. At a corporate, I can create outputs to multiple rooms and put control points in each room for the price of a netbook.
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I had the pleasure of being a board jockey at a multi room event using SAC The live program was in one room with a guy running FOH who had been there for the rehearsals I received a post fader feed from his board to my board in a overflow room. It was post fader because he knew what to expect and I didn't. I did have full control of every channel and my own EQ so I could tailor the mix to the room I was in. The setup was repeated in a third room.

At my church I have one PC and one license feeding the house. Another PC on a free remote has a complete mixer including his own solo ETC for his record mix. We have 9 more mixers (not aux but full mixers) running. One for each member of the Worship Team. They each control there PC with a $100 used laptop running wireless and battery powered so no hook up, cabling, wall warts ETC are needed. There is hard wired cabling to a headphone jack at each location.

Frank
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Christian Boche said:
WOW - stunning! Uli you did it again:)
Will it be signifincantly more expensive than the ADA8000?
Christian

BTW: Maybe you could also join up with Rolf from Appsys ( www.appsys.ch ) for adding a sort of remote gain control? Or even set up something up on your own?
The SAC community would be very thankfull for this I bet. Anyway, that would be the icing on the cake.
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Do you know Rolf?

Great guy and great products!

PS: It's a small world :)
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
Dear JR,

thank you for your comment.

In the ADA8000 the opamps are all designed around low-impedance circuitry and hence interchanging the TL072's with NJM4580's is not an issue.

The TL072 has an operating current of around 2.5mA while the 4580 draws approx. 3 times as much. Due to the vast amount of opamps used in the ADA8000, the TL072 was chosen to reduce the overall power consumption and the subsequent heat dissipation of the linear power supply.

The new ADA8200 uses a switch mode power supply which features a much higher efficiency and hence heat is no longer an issue. Due to this reason we implemented the 4580's for better overall audio performance.
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Thanks for the response... and my apologies to the list for this veer into design esoterica.

Always good to be able to use the right parts for the job at hand.

JR
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Jim King said:
Ummm.. JR -- In case you forgot, you're in a forum of sound geeks. I doubt anyone ever minds a veer into design esoterica.
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Be careful what you wish for... the full chapter and verse on selecting opamps 101 is much longer and boring to even me. I am confident you really don't want to hear it all.

I only posted my comment because I thought it was unusual to hear an opamp part number promoted as a selling feature to an audience that wouldn''t know the two apart if it bit them in a soft place. The rest of the story was slightly more interesting where we learned that the noisier part was used in the original design to prevent the power supply from releasing smoke. A valid engineering trade off, no doubt. The show must go on, and doing that was more expedient than redesigning the PS or sourcing a special opamp that was both low current and low noise (and available for a fair price in low volume). This is way more information than I wanted to learn about what goes under the hood, and how the parts ended up there.

JR

PS: A few of the other bullet points also triggered some inner dialog, but i am trying to be on my best behavior and not make Mr Behringer feel unwelcome. This is a great opportunity for him to promote his company and products. You guys really need to ask him more questions while you can. That is the quid pro quo. Help him earn his keep.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

kristianjohnsen said:
Do you know Rolf?

Great guy and great products!

PS: It's a small world :)
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I do, he came all the way from Zürich (Switzerland) to a SAC meeting, that I set up here some time ago.
I'm with you, he is a great guy.

By now I'm using the X32 and my SAC rig side by side and I love both of them. SAC can still do things (like Jim mentioned), that no "ordinary" desk can do.
Maybe this will change a bit, when we will able to use the build in recording card of the X32 as digital insert. But therefore the routing must be improved by a firmware update.
I hope, this will adressed soon.

@Jim: I would also love to see the possibility, to use the S-16 (with remote gain) directly with a computer/DAW. No only for SAC - it could be very handy in a studio or live recording situation.
A dedicated PCI(e) card would be awesome, but a plain AES50 to ADAT or MADI convertor would do the trick as well. And "boom" - there he is again: Rolf from Appsys could build a dedicated convertor;-)
Please Uli, at least consider the possibility.

Christian

SUGGESTION: Maybe we could separate the ADA8200 topic form this thread and put it in separate thread? It is quite OT imho.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

That's interesting as I was born near Zurich, too! Who said the Swiss can only produce watches and chocolate?

An AES50 to ADAT converter shouldn't be too difficult to make. Let me discuss this with our team.

Christian why don't you have a chat with Thomas when he is back next week.
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
That's interesting as I was born in Zurich, too! Who said the Swiss can only produce watches and chocolate.

An AES50 to ADAT converter shouldn't be too difficult to make. Let me discuss it with our team.
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AWESOME - I could provide "Cheese & Chocolate" for the R&D, if this would speed up things ;-)
Seriously, thank you for taking this into consideration.
Christian
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
That's interesting as I was born in Zurich, too! Who said the Swiss can only produce watches and chocolate?

An AES50 to ADAT converter shouldn't be too difficult to make. Let me discuss this with our team.

Christian why don't you have a chat with Thomas when he is back next week.
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Thanks to all the chocolate and chees around, I'm already working on such a converter :lol: Ive' been in contact with Thomas some time ago to discuss the remote control protocol. However, my progress has been rather slow since because of a myriad of other things to do, but as the S16 approaches it's now time to re-focus.
Do you see any chance to get a prototype S16 for testing?

BTW: Can you give me a hint of the ADA8200 gain pot values, and if they are still 2-pin (rheostat)? You know, remote gain control...
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Hello Uli! I have a doubt about the strategy of Behringer: Formerly used their equipment 96kHz sample rate and now I see all entries with 48KHz as the default. I know for live sound 48 is sufficient, but would like to see some of Behringer equipment launched using rates of 96kHz or more. A S16 at this rate and the potential for connecting directly to PC or MAC would be perfect for studio or live recordings. Also miss an ADA8000 (now ADA8200) rate of 96 (s / mux). Please express your view on the matter.


I have other doubts but put in another post for the better organization of the forum.


Thank you.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli, follows more doubts / my request:


This in terms of creating a Behringer mixer X8 or X16?


And what will be a mixer solution for studios? The Homestudios usually do not need big tables (24 input channels would suffice) but require sampling rates greater than 48kHz.


Excuse me quote a piece of equipment but now I see the competition as good for their design studios. This is the MOTU 828mk3, which is inteface + digital mixer (I can work with him in the studio recording and mixing tests of my clients.


Behringer Enchergo with equipment having the same characteristics, but with total control module via Ipad and this connection with AES50. Had 8 inputs expandable to 24.


With this I believe you have much market share as the Motu 828MK3 Mackie of the DL1608.


Sorry once again involve competitive products, but at least read my suggestion.


Hug and I bet my money on Behringer!
 
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Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
New ADA8200

Dear all,

in earlier posts some of you commented on the ADA8000 and suggested improvements. We are truly grateful for those suggestions and today we're excited to announce a vastly improved version of the ADA8000. It's the ULTRAGAIN DIGITAL ADA8200. I have also communicated with Bob Lentini from SAC and received his feedback for which I personally thank him.

Here are some of the improvements:

- The linear PSU has been replaced by a universal auto-range SMPSU. The heat issues are resolved
- A high-end Midas-designed preamp has been implemented on all 8 channels
- The detent VR's were replaced by non-detent types. They also feature much better linearity at high-gain settings
- High-quality Cirrus AD/DA converters have been designed in
- The TL072 op-amps were all replaced by NJM4580 for better audio performance

The unit should be in stores by end of year.


View attachment 4491

Again, thank you for all your valuable feedback.

Warm regards

Uli
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Hi,

I think a serious thought about your product names would not be stupid idea.

The names you choose I do think add to your percieved image and target market.

Those companies who work very hard to produce very hi spec units normally do so with modesty. They do not say WE HAVE THE BEST MIC AMP IN THE WORLD!!

Sorry to be blunt but I always thought it a bit of a joke that you knowingly make the cheapest units (some of which come on you have to admit are crap) but they are called ULTRAthis and ULTRAthat.

I thought with your new things like the X32 and P16 etc you had made a departure from this, but not so with this new unit.

Wouldn't be bad the ease of on THE CAPS LOCK as well.

Truely meant as constructive criticism and do not want to be rude. I just think it makes a different for a "professional" image.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Jim King said:
That's fantastic!

I will say, though, that what the SAC community is constantly struggling with is good ways to have a digital snake that goes right into the computer -- with remotable pre-amps. Most of us look at the S16 and keep trying to find a good way to make use of it for this.

Might I suggest a solution that you *almost* have: A SuperMac to ADAT converter that can convert two to three lines of SuperMac to ADAT input/output, and also control the pre-amps and phantom (bonus if its controllable by MIDI or ethernet so that software can be written to save the pre-amp and phantom settings). Then we could all use your S16 on stage as a digital snake head, but not have to convert to analog and back at the FOH point -- digital all the way through. By going to ADAT, you avoid having to create and maintain a computer interface and drivers -- you can leverage the ones that already exist from RME, MOTU, etc. and the product can be used without change as computer interfaces change technologies.

All the technology for this already exists in the S16... it's just the wrong form factor for the FOH end of the snake in that it forces us to convert to analog and back, rather than just being able to keep the signal digital. Ideally, I'd have two S16 on stage, and the above described box plus a ADA8200 at FOH.
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I am very interested in the Lynx AES16e-50 card:
AES16e

But talk of it seems to not be very popular......

How much push does the SAC community have? I see reports of direct contact with Behringer regarding their seemingly extensive use or recommendation of the ADA8000.

Currently I think the Lynx driver does not create any virtual MIDI ports which get routed through the AES50 stream.

But given the right push in the right direction they COULD add this to their driver and then it would be possible to connect two S16 boxes direct to a computer with a CAT5 cable and have 32 in 16 out with the lowest kind of latency possible with a card in the PCIe bus.

I was quoted 750 eur for the card exl VAT from Germany.

Could be a crazy cheap and also neat and elegant solution!
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Uli Behringer said:
That's interesting as I was born near Zurich, too! Who said the Swiss can only produce watches and chocolate?

An AES50 to ADAT converter shouldn't be too difficult to make. Let me discuss this with our team.

Christian why don't you have a chat with Thomas when he is back next week.
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Please have a look at solutions as well with KT to make AES50 router/convertor boxes that can convert between MADI or ADAT or other types of digital protocol. And also allow locking the whole system to word or video. The KT network bridge is unfortunatelly locked at 96k.

Would be good as well to include MIDI I/O to be able to inject into the AES50 stream.
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Christian Boche said:
WOW - stunning! Uli you did it again:)
Will it be signifincantly more expensive than the ADA8000?
Christian

BTW: Maybe you could also join up with Rolf from Appsys ( www.appsys.ch ) for adding a sort of remote gain control? Or even set up something up on your own?
The SAC community would be very thankfull for this I bet. Anyway, that would be the icing on the cake.
Click to expand...

If it could be remote controlled in SAC with a VST plug-in I'd buy 3 or 4 right now!
 
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A

Ed Lohr said:
If it could be remote controlled in SAC with a VST plug-in I'd buy 3 or 4 right now!
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Or get Music Group to share some info with Lynx and use the S16 boxes which already have remote control?

32 inputs and 16 outputs, remote control mic amps all with one CAT5 connection between stage and computer. Is there a more elegant solution?
 
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