Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A
Will they be multiple choice questions?
Will they be multiple choice questions?
Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A
- Thread starter Bennett Prescott
- Start date
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32
Further investigation reveals that there is a 'huge' capacitor (2.2uF?) connected directly to the usb power bus. It seems to be within the specs to protect from flyback voltage when removing the usb cable.
However, the inrush current to charge the capacitor could possibly be the case of triggering the iThingies current detection as apple doesn't seem to follow the usb specs for its connected devices, including this peak current?
Am I wrong with that statement?
Further investigation reveals that there is a 'huge' capacitor (2.2uF?) connected directly to the usb power bus. It seems to be within the specs to protect from flyback voltage when removing the usb cable.
However, the inrush current to charge the capacitor could possibly be the case of triggering the iThingies current detection as apple doesn't seem to follow the usb specs for its connected devices, including this peak current?
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32
Hi Uli:
Going back to the FCA1616, is it true that we are getting it soon? Some sellers are saying that they will ship in July. In the US that is.
About the quality of the conversion, how does the FCA1616 compare to other units that cost 3 times as much?
And if the quality is comparable, how did you achieve that goal, at such low prices.
Can you elaborate a little bit if it does not infringe on your corporate secret.
Thank you so much.
dan
Hi Uli:
Going back to the FCA1616, is it true that we are getting it soon? Some sellers are saying that they will ship in July. In the US that is.
About the quality of the conversion, how does the FCA1616 compare to other units that cost 3 times as much?
And if the quality is comparable, how did you achieve that goal, at such low prices.
Can you elaborate a little bit if it does not infringe on your corporate secret.
Thank you so much.
dan
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A Question and suggestion Re ,X32
Dear Dan,
thanks for your question.
Indeed, we released many models last month such as the interfaces FCA610, FCA1616, ADA8200 and also the UFX USB/Firewire Mixers. We are especially proud of the quality of these new interfaces as they feature MIDAS-designed preamps and high-quality AD/DA converters. As usual we encourage customers to compare our products with competitor models costing several times our price.
The interfaces took much longer than we had anticipated as we had some challenges with the Archwave/BridgeCo drivers that relate to their DM1500 chip. We have been closely working with Archwave over the past year and finally resolved all issues. The interfaces are shipping and should soon be in stores.
In relation to your question about our competitive pricing, allow me to refer you to an earlier post (post 280).
http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q-14.html
I hope this helps.
Warm regards
Uli
Dear Dan,
thanks for your question.
Indeed, we released many models last month such as the interfaces FCA610, FCA1616, ADA8200 and also the UFX USB/Firewire Mixers. We are especially proud of the quality of these new interfaces as they feature MIDAS-designed preamps and high-quality AD/DA converters. As usual we encourage customers to compare our products with competitor models costing several times our price.
The interfaces took much longer than we had anticipated as we had some challenges with the Archwave/BridgeCo drivers that relate to their DM1500 chip. We have been closely working with Archwave over the past year and finally resolved all issues. The interfaces are shipping and should soon be in stores.
In relation to your question about our competitive pricing, allow me to refer you to an earlier post (post 280).
http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q-14.html
I hope this helps.
Warm regards
Uli
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A
I have an x32 and I only need to run 6 auxes at any one time. Are there any plans to integrated the Ultradrive pro dcx2496 into the x32 via a firmware update? Im thinking a possible configuration of 1 - 6 axes, 7 - 10 effects and 11 - 16 to make for a 3 way stereo management system where 11 and 12 can be left and right hi, 13 and 14 mids, 15 - 16 lows. Is this at all possible if I forego having the subgroups?
Re: Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A
The matrixbusses already allow you to do this...
Still nagging about 4-ch DSP version of iNuke
Hello
I am more than certain, that there would be a HUGE market potential for a 4-channel DSP-power amp, that could deliver ALL power in 8ohms.
Just consider all applications with :
- 2 tops - 2 bottoms
- 4 separate monitors
- 2 tops + 2 monitors
Most cabinets are 8 ohms - OKAY you might make it tolerate 4 ohms, but still optimize it for 8 ohms.
With all DSP of today it would be easy to control the loads and keep total PSU current in control.
Of course - if PSU is cheap and so no issue - there must certainly be other places to cut the cost without sacrificing quality.
DSP in every channel is a must - without it I just keep getting more of iNuke 6000DSP - having the advantage of changeability... just in case...
4x440W @ 8ohms corresponds to 2x880W @ 4 ohms - looking from PSU - so something like 3000 - plenty for monitors in my book.
Of course - if there were a marketplace to sell all my JBL4728 wedges for good price - I´ll just get me some of those new IQ-things and forget contemplaining..... :lol:
And finally - when - oh when can I lay my old hands on X32R 8O~8-O~:shock:
Nuuska
Hello
I am more than certain, that there would be a HUGE market potential for a 4-channel DSP-power amp, that could deliver ALL power in 8ohms.
Just consider all applications with :
- 2 tops - 2 bottoms
- 4 separate monitors
- 2 tops + 2 monitors
Most cabinets are 8 ohms - OKAY you might make it tolerate 4 ohms, but still optimize it for 8 ohms.
With all DSP of today it would be easy to control the loads and keep total PSU current in control.
Of course - if PSU is cheap and so no issue - there must certainly be other places to cut the cost without sacrificing quality.
DSP in every channel is a must - without it I just keep getting more of iNuke 6000DSP - having the advantage of changeability... just in case...
4x440W @ 8ohms corresponds to 2x880W @ 4 ohms - looking from PSU - so something like 3000 - plenty for monitors in my book.
Of course - if there were a marketplace to sell all my JBL4728 wedges for good price - I´ll just get me some of those new IQ-things and forget contemplaining..... :lol:
And finally - when - oh when can I lay my old hands on X32R 8O~8-O~:shock:
Nuuska
Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Any new updates on the release for the Inuke 12000. I don't mean to be a bother, but the previous estimate was in the second quarter of 2013. Since the second quarter of 2013 is nearly over, will the Inuke 12000 be released soon? Or has the release date been pushed back? Also, can you tell us what the price will be for the DSP and Non-DSP Inuke 12000 will be?
Any new updates on the release for the Inuke 12000. I don't mean to be a bother, but the previous estimate was in the second quarter of 2013. Since the second quarter of 2013 is nearly over, will the Inuke 12000 be released soon? Or has the release date been pushed back? Also, can you tell us what the price will be for the DSP and Non-DSP Inuke 12000 will be?
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Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Dear Barrett,
thanks for your question.
The NU12000 and NU12000DSP amps have just passed all FCC and Safety certification and are now undergoing final stress testing. We anticipate production in August.
Pricing for the NU12000 should be around US$ 1,000.
Warm regards
Uli
Dear Barrett,
thanks for your question.
The NU12000 and NU12000DSP amps have just passed all FCC and Safety certification and are now undergoing final stress testing. We anticipate production in August.
Pricing for the NU12000 should be around US$ 1,000.
Warm regards
Uli
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Thank you very much for your reply. If the 12,000 can put out around 2kw @8 ohms for $1,000 it will be a steal and a game changer for the entire industry. I'm definitely looking forward to it's release.
Thank you very much for your reply. If the 12,000 can put out around 2kw @8 ohms for $1,000 it will be a steal and a game changer for the entire industry. I'm definitely looking forward to it's release.
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Dear Uli:
I keep coming back to questions about converters.
First of all, I am glad that the FCA1616 will be finally available this month as well as the ADA 8200.
And all I have are 3 short and simple questions and again if you don't feel comfortable explaining it to us then it is OK. I understand.
1. everybody who makes the more expensive converters always hint at what they put before and after the converters, AD and DA to make them sound really good. The way they explain it, it costs a lot of money to make them that way ,i.e. the stuff besides the converters themselves. Is that true Uli?
2. Isn't it further true that while it might be a little more difficult to make a good AD converter, it is fairly easier or let's say much easier to make a good sounding DA converter. The reason I ask is that when listening to converters, the differences between the converters, I mean those built for studios, are very subtle. That's why last year Norman from Gearsluts had a shoot out mixing 16 channels of ADA8000 and mixing 16 channels with the Lynx stuff.
The result, a lot of people guessed wrong, and the Lynx cost much more than the ADA8000. I also listen to that shoot out with my big system, and can barely discern the differences. And this test involved 16 channels out, not just 1 stereo pair, so that if there is any mud built up, we surely would have known.
So the question boils down to: what do you put in the ANALOG section in and out of the converters, to make a converter sound good. Or are we have been grossly overcharged? Or that the type of converter chip is so important by itself.
3. you chose to use ArchWave for your driver, and other companies are struggling with their drivers. Why don't they use the DM1500 chip and ArchWave driver instead of trying to write their own drivers. And isn't it also true the Antelope folks are also using ArchWave chip and driver for their Orion 32? The more anybody has trouble with their drivers, the better RME look.
If you can somehow give us like a short white paper on this subject, and explain to us how a good converter should be built without costing an arm and leg, then it will put to rest all of the theories out there about converters and put this subject to rest once for all.
I thank you so much in advance Uli.
dan le
Dear Uli:
I keep coming back to questions about converters.
First of all, I am glad that the FCA1616 will be finally available this month as well as the ADA 8200.
And all I have are 3 short and simple questions and again if you don't feel comfortable explaining it to us then it is OK. I understand.
1. everybody who makes the more expensive converters always hint at what they put before and after the converters, AD and DA to make them sound really good. The way they explain it, it costs a lot of money to make them that way ,i.e. the stuff besides the converters themselves. Is that true Uli?
2. Isn't it further true that while it might be a little more difficult to make a good AD converter, it is fairly easier or let's say much easier to make a good sounding DA converter. The reason I ask is that when listening to converters, the differences between the converters, I mean those built for studios, are very subtle. That's why last year Norman from Gearsluts had a shoot out mixing 16 channels of ADA8000 and mixing 16 channels with the Lynx stuff.
The result, a lot of people guessed wrong, and the Lynx cost much more than the ADA8000. I also listen to that shoot out with my big system, and can barely discern the differences. And this test involved 16 channels out, not just 1 stereo pair, so that if there is any mud built up, we surely would have known.
So the question boils down to: what do you put in the ANALOG section in and out of the converters, to make a converter sound good. Or are we have been grossly overcharged? Or that the type of converter chip is so important by itself.
3. you chose to use ArchWave for your driver, and other companies are struggling with their drivers. Why don't they use the DM1500 chip and ArchWave driver instead of trying to write their own drivers. And isn't it also true the Antelope folks are also using ArchWave chip and driver for their Orion 32? The more anybody has trouble with their drivers, the better RME look.
If you can somehow give us like a short white paper on this subject, and explain to us how a good converter should be built without costing an arm and leg, then it will put to rest all of the theories out there about converters and put this subject to rest once for all.
I thank you so much in advance Uli.
dan le
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
This is all likely defined by the law of diminishing returns. At some point, the audio is good enough for most people and discerning the difference is harder. Getting better beyond that can and does cost exponentially more. Is the audio better on higher end gear? Yeah, it can be. But is it worth the extra cost? It all depends on the application and the budget available to do the job. Finding the sweet spot of acceptable quality at an affordable price is the challenge.
As far as outsourcing drivers, I'm sure it comes to a cost/IP decision. Using someone else's drivers means paying for each product manufactured, and giving up control of the design. Sometimes it's better to design in house, versus hiring out. It all comes to a business decision.
This is all likely defined by the law of diminishing returns. At some point, the audio is good enough for most people and discerning the difference is harder. Getting better beyond that can and does cost exponentially more. Is the audio better on higher end gear? Yeah, it can be. But is it worth the extra cost? It all depends on the application and the budget available to do the job. Finding the sweet spot of acceptable quality at an affordable price is the challenge.
As far as outsourcing drivers, I'm sure it comes to a cost/IP decision. Using someone else's drivers means paying for each product manufactured, and giving up control of the design. Sometimes it's better to design in house, versus hiring out. It all comes to a business decision.
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Dear Dan,
Thanks for your "short and simple questions” which are unfortunately not as simple to answer.
The independent product shoot-out you are referring to has proven what we are trying to convey for decades; higher cost doesn’t necessarily mean better performance.
In most cases we use exactly the same components that you will find in expensive “high-end” equipment. It is the simple fact that we buy components in extremely large quantities, which leads to prices that are generally a fraction of what our competitors pay for. Often, we also buy directly from manufacturers, bypassing distribution all together.
Once you add our highly integrated manufacturing capabilities, you will easily understand our competitive pricing.
Nowadays, electronic components have reached such a high quality and integration, that differences are hardly audible. In fact, today’s AD/DA converters come from a few major suppliers such as Cirrus Logic, AKM or Burr Brown etc. whose components have become industry standard.
Just look inside the units and check out the part numbers. Provided design rules for correct grounding and clean power supplies are followed, the performance should be nearly identical.
To answer your question whether it matters "what you put before and after the converters”, my short and simple answer would be; if you mean microphones and speakers I would whole-heartedly agree, the rest not so much.
Warm regards
Uli
Dear Dan,
Thanks for your "short and simple questions” which are unfortunately not as simple to answer.
The independent product shoot-out you are referring to has proven what we are trying to convey for decades; higher cost doesn’t necessarily mean better performance.
In most cases we use exactly the same components that you will find in expensive “high-end” equipment. It is the simple fact that we buy components in extremely large quantities, which leads to prices that are generally a fraction of what our competitors pay for. Often, we also buy directly from manufacturers, bypassing distribution all together.
Once you add our highly integrated manufacturing capabilities, you will easily understand our competitive pricing.
Nowadays, electronic components have reached such a high quality and integration, that differences are hardly audible. In fact, today’s AD/DA converters come from a few major suppliers such as Cirrus Logic, AKM or Burr Brown etc. whose components have become industry standard.
Just look inside the units and check out the part numbers. Provided design rules for correct grounding and clean power supplies are followed, the performance should be nearly identical.
To answer your question whether it matters "what you put before and after the converters”, my short and simple answer would be; if you mean microphones and speakers I would whole-heartedly agree, the rest not so much.
Warm regards
Uli
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Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
No, the analog glue circuitry immediately before and after A/D/A does not need to be very expensive, but it does need to be good or it will compromise all the design effort put into making the convertor path high integrity.
The ugly secret about esoteric convertor companies is that to sound different, they need to do something different around their convertors, or they won't be different. When the path is dominated by an identical IC the main way to be different is to be inaccurate... YMMV.
JR
PS: I have no idea of Behringer's specific execution but such supporting circuitry design criteria have been addressed in convertor application notes, since the early days of digital.
[edit] For example an A/D convertor with S/H at it's audio input needs to be driven from a robust low impedance source at HF. Again this doesn't need to be expensive, just correct. [/edit]
I'm no Uli, but since he glossed over this question, I'll give you my $0.02.
No, the analog glue circuitry immediately before and after A/D/A does not need to be very expensive, but it does need to be good or it will compromise all the design effort put into making the convertor path high integrity.
The ugly secret about esoteric convertor companies is that to sound different, they need to do something different around their convertors, or they won't be different. When the path is dominated by an identical IC the main way to be different is to be inaccurate... YMMV.
JR
PS: I have no idea of Behringer's specific execution but such supporting circuitry design criteria have been addressed in convertor application notes, since the early days of digital.
[edit] For example an A/D convertor with S/H at it's audio input needs to be driven from a robust low impedance source at HF. Again this doesn't need to be expensive, just correct. [/edit]
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Hi Uli:
And thanks all others who have chimed in.
The answers are really great.
I think I have such a clear understanding about converters now.
Uli, about my question number 3, without looking like I am badgering the witness, can you talk to us a little bit about the driver's business. And btw, you are really honest in coming out and say that your company decided to use ArchWave chip and driver instead of brushing it off like others, making it looks like they write the drivers themselves. And I truly so appreciate it.
Thank you again.
dan
Hi Uli:
And thanks all others who have chimed in.
The answers are really great.
I think I have such a clear understanding about converters now.
Uli, about my question number 3, without looking like I am badgering the witness, can you talk to us a little bit about the driver's business. And btw, you are really honest in coming out and say that your company decided to use ArchWave chip and driver instead of brushing it off like others, making it looks like they write the drivers themselves. And I truly so appreciate it.
Thank you again.
dan
Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Dear Dan,
Archwave is a provider for FireWire and USB solutions who actually spun off from BridgeCo, the company that developed Airplay. Both companies have invested hundreds of man years and millions of dollars in the development of their Firewire/USB chips plus the corresponding drivers which are an integral part of their solutions.
In the ever changing PC market where processors and operating systems get upgraded almost on an annual basis, no reasonable audio manufacturer would try to develop their own drivers unless they develop their own hardware solution such as RME.
As PC manufacturers continue to abandon FireWire, companies such as TC have since discontinued their Dice chip as well as Archwave, whose DM1500 is now end of life, too. It’s interesting that the successor chip DM2500 only offers USB2.0 in line with the industry’s overall USB trend.
Warm regards
Uli
Dear Dan,
Archwave is a provider for FireWire and USB solutions who actually spun off from BridgeCo, the company that developed Airplay. Both companies have invested hundreds of man years and millions of dollars in the development of their Firewire/USB chips plus the corresponding drivers which are an integral part of their solutions.
In the ever changing PC market where processors and operating systems get upgraded almost on an annual basis, no reasonable audio manufacturer would try to develop their own drivers unless they develop their own hardware solution such as RME.
As PC manufacturers continue to abandon FireWire, companies such as TC have since discontinued their Dice chip as well as Archwave, whose DM1500 is now end of life, too. It’s interesting that the successor chip DM2500 only offers USB2.0 in line with the industry’s overall USB trend.
Warm regards
Uli
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Re: Follow up on Inuke 12000 release date
Uli, this begs the question if we should be worried about our future ability to multitrack and/or have low latency interfaces that lends themselves to using stuff like Waves Multirack without investing in specialized gear?
As a somewhat casual observer one might be inclined to think that some of the planned abilities of the X32, like recording 16 channels to a USB stick might be connected to Archwaves failure to deliver on some of the technologies supposedly incorporated in the DM1500 chip. While you might not like to comment on that, maybe you could share your thoughts on what we can expect to see in terms of future interfaces and on-board recording.
Will we ever see the 24ch usb-stick recording card for the X32 family?
Are we likely to have reliable bidirectional 32 channel usb, or is that likely to remain borderline?
Any thought of making an affordable AES50 recorder?
Uli, this begs the question if we should be worried about our future ability to multitrack and/or have low latency interfaces that lends themselves to using stuff like Waves Multirack without investing in specialized gear?
As a somewhat casual observer one might be inclined to think that some of the planned abilities of the X32, like recording 16 channels to a USB stick might be connected to Archwaves failure to deliver on some of the technologies supposedly incorporated in the DM1500 chip. While you might not like to comment on that, maybe you could share your thoughts on what we can expect to see in terms of future interfaces and on-board recording.
Will we ever see the 24ch usb-stick recording card for the X32 family?
Are we likely to have reliable bidirectional 32 channel usb, or is that likely to remain borderline?
Any thought of making an affordable AES50 recorder?