Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

I fail to see how there should be a correlation between the size of a gig and the expected quality of sound. While income potential certainly limits what one can expect to spend on sound for a gig, one wouldn't offer an artist crappy sound just because "it's only a 50 cap audience".

For 99.9% of female gospel singers and a 50 capacity audience, I'd offer no microphone at all as it is unlikely to be necessary. Acoustic performance - what a concept.

If the promoter/presenter is willing to pick up the tab for the microphone rental I'll hire whatever is desired. If we're expected to provide a "not stocked by us" $900 vocal mic for a $400 show, it ain't gonna happen without reimbursement. Actually it won't happen if the gig pays $1000, either. We don't have sufficient demand for KMS105, and those who request them most often don't seem to think they should be a separate line item on the invoice.

While I'm all about helping artists with whatever is needed for their performance, this is still a business. If nobody's payin', we ain't playin'.

 

[John Norris]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

While I'm all about helping artists with whatever is needed for their performance, this is still a business. If nobody's payin', we ain't playin'.

+1
Don't be a chump.

 

[Steve Payne]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

Michael,
No artist who would accept the sound system you described as adequate for their needs could seriously demand a KMS105.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

If she can work a microphone with a tight pattern. (stays infront of it) check out the EV PL80a. I sound like a broken record on here but this mic gives you loads of gain before feedback, sounds good and honestly seems to need less gain then the sennheisers and other options. Combine it with a decent compressor. If she doesnt bother to stay infront of the mic dont bother with the PL80a.

I actually had a fairly knowledgeable artist (who owned his own 105) on a casual stage at a coffee house patio ask me if the mic inside the big orange foam windscreen was a 105. He loved the sound of it. It was a PL80a...

to the OP:

No way you should be going out and buying high-end gear for divas. They either provide the mic they require, you rent one and charge them for it (or split the rental with them) or they use the best you can give them from what you have. The last time I had to deal with such an "artist", it turned out she only sang a couple of numbers, blew off sound check and had her band play the show instead. And that was after renting her the exact mic she required.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

+1 Don't be a chump.

So only chumps go out and acquire the equipment artists ask for, even when that equipment is a very mainstream item that is likely to be on many riders?

Michael,
No artist who would accept the sound system you described as adequate for their needs could seriously demand a KMS105.

Would you have said the same if it was a SRX725 rig? The EV's sound a lot better in my mind, and if anyone thinks this is a rig that can't justify the difference between a 58 and something a lot pricier, then they are sadly mistaken. Is it the B-word maybe?

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

I am not going to say anything about buying the 105 because I own 2 and love them on female voices. I can understand why the artist wants one. I don't understand why if that is the only mic acceptable that she doesn't own her own. But like the others said, I would be happy to rent the equipment I don't have as a line item cost.

i also own a whole slew of PL80's and also find them to be very comparable. I was with a band that had 4 male vocalists and 2 female vocalists. At first it was 105's for the ladies and PL80's for the guys. Later on all but the largest stages, it was PL80's for all, and not a really noticeable difference. The 105's have a sense o f openness to them despite the tight pattern, but if the vocalist can work the 105 they will find that working the PL80 the same way gives very similar results.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

......

Would you have said the same if it was a SRX725 rig? The EV's sound a lot better in my mind, and if anyone thinks this is a rig that can't justify the difference between a 58 and something a lot pricier, then they are sadly mistaken. Is it the B-word maybe?

I don't think Steve was saying this at all. I"ve got a friend who uses a KMS105 with his 500 dollar coffee house rig, and you can certainly tell the difference between that mic and a 58. I think what he was pointing out is that from a relative quality and expense standpoint, the 105 is out of line with the OPs rig. Demanding a lead vocal mic that costs 10 percent as much as the rest of rig combined is just nonsense, and frankly screams noob. Honestly, i think demanding any specific microphone is pretty much an amateur diva move. If you've got to have something specific, bring it. You wouldn't bat an eye spending a grand on a guitar, so spend the money on the mic you want. otherwise, you take whatever the provider has. Or you deal with the Markup necessary for the provider to sub rent what you require.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

My point of view is similar to Brian's - it's about having a consistent reasonable system, and reasonable expectations. For a <$10,000 PA, what's customary are SM58's, SM57's, a few mid-range SDCs like SM81's, a B52/D6, and the like; this is what a customer should expect to get in this price range. If there are special requirements - fine, but they become line-item upcharges. If the promoter/whoever is paying for this believe it's in the gig's best interest to adhere to the "no brown M&M's"-type requests of the artist - so be it, but it shouldn't be on the OP to rent/buy an expensive specialized piece.

I did an event a few weeks ago with two artists - an unknown Christian band, and a Dove award-winning national Christian rap artist. The rider for the band, while pretty mild by a lot of standards, had some specific mic recommendations, described the main PA as having 15" woofers (which is funny, as I've never owned a 15" driver in my life), and some other irrelevant boiler-plate stuff. The rider for the rap artist, who was an extremely gracious guy, basically said "a wireless microphone, monitor wedges, and a 1/8" headphone plug for the playback laptop". Both acts were easy to work with, but I was really impressed by the graciousness of the national rapper - he understands that the number of bookings on his calendar directly relates to the bar for production he sets, and therefore only asks for what he really needs.

Diva-ality I suppose has a place, but for someone at the low-end of the curve, it seems short-sighted to drive up the cost of the production for small items like demanding a specific mic.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

We had a rider cross the desk a few years back, from a recent winner of multiple Dove awards. The rider was for arena touring and the prospective venues were big churches... the 2,000 - 2,600 seat places.

After looking at how many seats would be killed by the required production elements, local presenters asked us to contact the artist's technical representatives and seek a "theater" rider. None was forthcoming and the folks we spoke with were rather condescending, too. We tried to explain that reducing house capacity by 30%-40% was not in anyone's interests but they were not moved.

About 12 pages of the 17 page rider was technical stuff, and of those 12 about 7 were devoted (no pun intended) to restrictions and limitations on the support acts, right down to permitting only a kick drum mic and single overhead for drums... a whole lot of "restrict the support so they can't be perceived as 'better' than us" bullshit.

So much for grace. Neither local presenter was able to do the show because of the artist's inflexible lighting and staging requirements. I'd have expected this diva bullshit from performers whose businesses do not include the word "Ministry" in the name, but the hypocrisy involved here was so overwhelming that I suggested that the presenters divine the compatibility of their ministries with that of the performer under consideration.

The artist is still out there, performing and producing. I hear he's much less of a douche bag these days so I've not mentioned names...

 

[Charles Harrigan]

I have a viewpoint similar to brad and TJ. At the lower level shows, artists should be prepares to accept what would be considered industry standard microphones for that size show. As the size and scope of the gig increases, it is more reasonable that the provider for the show will have more esoteric microphones and gear. when there are 18 wheelers rolling and $250k of pa in the air, a $20k mic package isn't a big deal. For a $10k pa I'd be happy with 57s, 58s, and a few condensers that work. I'd definitely like better mics, but I don't expect small systems to have them.

When I see riders with very esoteric mics, currently have one that wants both a Royer ribbon and a KSM44, I always try ton see if it is available locally. In this case, no one we cross rent with has one, so we made it very clear that it is between the band and the promoter to come up with the money for those or decide they aren't necessary. My personal feelings are that they should be carrying at a minimum any "specials" that they have to have. Similar to a guitarist who has to have a specific telecaster or a 57 dean will carry it with him, so too should a vocalist who thinks their voice deserves a special mic. You might also bring up he hygiene issue with using provided mics. Sometimes the gross out factor is a good motivator.



Sent from my neural implant

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

We had a rider cross the desk a few years back, from a recent winner of multiple Dove awards. The rider was for arena touring and the prospective venues were big churches... the 2,000 - 2,600 seat places.

After looking at how many seats would be killed by the required production elements, local presenters asked us to contact the artist's technical representatives and seek a "theater" rider. None was forthcoming and the folks we spoke with were rather condescending, too. We tried to explain that reducing house capacity by 30%-40% was not in anyone's interests but they were not moved.

About 12 pages of the 17 page rider was technical stuff, and of those 12 about 7 were devoted (no pun intended) to restrictions and limitations on the support acts, right down to permitting only a kick drum mic and single overhead for drums... a whole lot of "restrict the support so they can't be perceived as 'better' than us" bullshit.

So much for grace. Neither local presenter was able to do the show because of the artist's inflexible lighting and staging requirements. I'd have expected this diva bullshit from performers whose businesses do not include the word "Ministry" in the name, but the hypocrisy involved here was so overwhelming that I suggested that the presenters divine the compatibility of their ministries with that of the performer under consideration.

The artist is still out there, performing and producing. I hear he's much less of a douche bag these days so I've not mentioned names...

You've told this story before, including the alleged offender's name, I believe. The attitude is pretty stupid; it would sure look and feel funny to have 96 VL3500s and a 100' X 100' X 8' high stage or whatever it was in a 200 X 150 room.

I'm glad to hear the attitude has changed; arrogance is unfortunately a frequent consequence of success, but has no place in ministry.

 

[Mike Mullin]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

Hi Helge, How was the the gain before feedback compared to more standard dynamic vocal mics?

I tried a DPA D:Facto last weekend, verry impressive. Smooth off-axis and verry little coloration. But expensive compared to a dynamic.

 

[John Norris]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

So only chumps go out and acquire the equipment artists ask for, even when that equipment is a very mainstream item that is likely to be on many riders?

It depends on the context.

In this situation - given Michael's modest rig and modest rates - it would be unwarranted for him to be paying out-of pocket to meet verbal demands for a one-off gig. If the venue or the talent are willing to provide extra funds to help satisfy the singer's demand - then yes, absolutely. But his description of his services identifies him as a part-time enthusiast providing a decent PA for low cost; not one of a higher cost, higher production value company that deals with riders.

 

[Kevin Hayes]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

No way you should be going out and buying high-end gear for divas. They either provide the mic they require, you rent one and charge them for it (or split the rental with them) or they use the best you can give them from what you have. The last time I had to deal with such an "artist", it turned out she only sang a couple of numbers, blew off sound check and had her band play the show instead. And that was after renting her the exact mic she required.

I agree. I've been a part time small system owner in the past, and the reason that I was hired by people was because my overhead was so low that I could give comparably great prices. Not to say anything against the quality, but I could provide only what I could provide. Chances are you're blowing away a bigger company's prices for this system(a bigger company has to worry about payroll, shop expenses, keeping up with gear), so part of that agreement is that you're probably not going to have the most extensive mic selection.

If she insists, ask the promoter if he/she is willing to pay the cost of the rental into your invoice. If they are then great, if they aren't then I'm sure she'll be able to cope.

 

[brian maddox]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

You've told this story before, including the alleged offender's name, I believe. The attitude is pretty stupid; it would sure look and feel funny to have 96 VL3500s and a 100' X 100' X 8' high stage or whatever it was in a 200 X 150 room.

I'm glad to hear the attitude has changed; arrogance is unfortunately a frequent consequence of success, but has no place in ministry.

agreed. although often the arrogance is coming from the crew and not the artist. that being said, i've found a gracious artist tends to have a gracious crew and vis versa, regardless of genre. so maybe i'm being too kind....

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

There seems to be some agreement that going out and buying stuff is silly, and from a business point of view I'd agree to some extent. However, I love getting new stuff, and will jump at anything that justifies me going out and buying a piece of kit that I want. I know I'm not the only one.
I keep expanding my inventory all the time, a microphone here, a couple of lights there, some of the stuff is "too good" for my present rig, but that doesn't bother me, it only means that the good stuff is going to be around when I've got rid of some of the lesser stuff.
I think the KMS105 is a good mike to have in the inventory and would buy it for that reason, knowing that it would improve the quality of sound I could produce from female singers, even if my rig definitely isn't what I would wish for.
A top of the line wired mic is $500-$1000, making them the cheapest items in the signal chain, and therefore the one item where one can indulge oneself without breaking the bank.
As someone who definitely wants to swap my small venue sub $10000 PRX rig for a small venue d&b $50000+ job, I try to make as many of my new acquisitions as possible consistent with that aim. Since I do my most important work in a hall with an in house line array, obviously my PRX mains is not my defining criterion even today.

Whoever you are, whatever the level, having some money-channel stuff that quality wise goes beyond the rest of the set-up makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

There seems to be some agreement that going out and buying stuff is silly, and from a business point of view I'd agree to some extent. However, I love getting new stuff, and will jump at anything that justifies me going out and buying a piece of kit that I want. I know I'm not the only one.
I keep expanding my inventory all the time, a microphone here, a couple of lights there, some of the stuff is "too good" for my present rig, but that doesn't bother me, it only means that the good stuff is going to be around when I've got rid of some of the lesser stuff.
I think the KMS105 is a good mike to have in the inventory and would buy it for that reason, knowing that it would improve the quality of sound I could produce from female singers, even if my rig definitely isn't what I would wish for.
A top of the line wired mic is $500-$1000, making them the cheapest items in the signal chain, and therefore the one item where one can indulge oneself without breaking the bank.
As someone who definitely wants to swap my small venue sub $10000 PRX rig for a small venue d&b $50000+ job, I try to make as many of my new acquisitions as possible consistent with that aim. Since I do my most important work in a hall with an in house line array, obviously my PRX mains is not my defining criterion even today.

Whoever you are, whatever the level, having some money-channel stuff that quality wise goes beyond the rest of the set-up makes sense, doesn't it?

Per, it's obvious that you aren't in the sound business to make a living, for you it's a hobby. There's nothing wrong with that.

For the rest of us that rely on our businesses and ROI to pay our bills, we can't just go out and buy whatever makes us feel nice inside.

 

[Jay Barracato]

I don't think this comes down to what is appropriate or not, but how a provider does business with a promoter.

When I bid a job I am very specific about what I will provide at that price. Since mics are one of the smallest items most likely to show up on a rider, they are listed by brand and model. They do not need to be itemized as line items in the price but need to be clearly identified as part of the package. I go on to make it clear that anything not on the list deemed "necessary" is the financial obligation of whomever is signing my check. If the promoter wants to pass on those costs, that is their business.

Too often I have been trapped in the middle of the he said, she said where both the artist and the promoter are avoiding each other because neither wants to be responsible for the cost and trying to push it onto me.

If you want a new piece of equipment, buy it because you want it or it makes business, not because an artist or promoter is trying to force you to absorb the expense they don't want to.

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

Per, it's obvious that you aren't in the sound business to make a living, for you it's a hobby. There's nothing wrong with that.

For the rest of us that rely on our businesses and ROI to pay our bills, we can't just go out and buy whatever makes us feel nice inside.

Definitely, I'm doing this to empty my wallet (and help my wife out with her endeavours)

However, the local professional sound company is run and owned by a guy that spent the first ten years just ploughing his earnings back into gear that would satisfy the riders he was trying to meet. Now, after twenty years he's making a comfortable living while still ploughing enough back in to move up the ladder at a steady pace. Currently at large mobile stage, d&b V-series, Shure ULX-D/KSM9HS level where the next step up is into bigtime territory that requires hiring lots of staff, so I guess he'll just be staying at the current general level and keep buying feel-good stuff that also sounds good. Could he make more money just providing what is strictly needed? Maybe, but his company is earning a reputation for uncompromisingly good sound, and that is definitely potential value as well.

Why do we do this, surely not to make money. All of us do it from passion, from the desire to help create art, because we are gearheads.
Isn't business just an unpleasant side effect that some of us have to consider out of necessity?

 

[Per Søvik]

Re: Need help on Vocal Mic Selection Female Soul Singer Lead Vocalist

If you want a new piece of equipment, buy it because you want it or it makes business, not because an artist or promoter is trying to force you to absorb the expense they don't want to.

Yes, I'm not saying one shouldn't charge for the equipment provided, and I have no idea whether the OP is in a contractual position to charge appropriate rent for this "not included in the package" microphone, because that part of the discussion has not been touched upon by the OP. Frankly, the promoter should have a rider available when hiring sound, and specific requirements beyond what can be reasonably expected to be part of a hired "package"not mentioned at the time of hiring are "extras" that it is fair to charge for.