Event Board Recording SNAFU

Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

John....

While it's a nice idea to multi-track things, the increase in time and expense makes it prohibitive. Maybe it is "specialized" audio to nail it in one take with no rehearsal, but with a proper board and rack or digital "all in one" console, it can be done.

I'd have to charge a heck of a lot more for my work if my back-up was multi-track. As it is, I have audio to the camera direct and two different back-up recording units, one with video time code and the other a simple digital recording.
Luckily, even very inexpensive (sub-$1000) consoles can now do multi-track with nothing more than a laptop connected to the console via USB/FW/CAT-5 and some free multitrack software.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

There are obviously so many things that can be done to avoid the disaster of screwing up a one-time event recording. Obviously recording rehearsals, always multitrack even when providing a mix, double up on headsets, etc. etc. But it is always good to have a fair command of the basics, like knowing to lowcut microphones that are used by speakers and singers with little understanding and control of their plosives, using gates and comps instead of potentially missing cues altogether, knowing to set proper gain on wireless kits ( including the headroom allowance for extra enthusiasm at the performance proper).
The video is produced by a provider that is obviously not interested in taking the blame for the bad sound, so they probably told the client to go back to the sound company. Totally understandable.
What really never cease to amaze me though, is how often the video production and the sound production are total strangers until moments before a production. Any video production operation that has been around for more than a few weeks must surely have understood how important it is to communicate with the sound provider. So why does it "never" happen?
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Luckily, even very inexpensive (sub-$1000) consoles can now do multi-track with nothing more than a laptop connected to the console via USB/FW/CAT-5 and some free multitrack software.

Yes, but the point is that the added post-event production time for mixing down the audio and getting it to the video people who then have to sync it up means a big hole in whatever profit may be there. You're talking about adding on a few up to dozens of hours for the same money from the client.

When the program is done, I'm done. They've got the audio in the camera and on a couple of back-ups.

It's not a matter of technology as such. It's the job. There's no earthly reason a simple shoot like that can't be done by a competent tech without it ending up like in the video.
 
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Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Yes, but the point is that the added post-event production time for mixing down the audio and getting it to the video people who then have to sync it up means a big hole in whatever profit may be there. You're talking about adding on a few up to dozens of hours for the same money from the client.
I'm not suggesting that one wouldn't charge for doing any extra work. It's simply that the option is there to create the multi for little or no extra cost. It's a value-added service that can be offered as an option to the customer if they'd like to be able to have the audio re-mixed after the event along with the video.

There's no earthly reason a simple shoot like that can't be done by a competent tech without it ending up like in the video.
Agreed. I couldn't watch the video all the way through - I was cringing big time.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Andrew....


I think we have to consider the level of business where this occurred. This is a home-made production by the guys wife. Random video crew, audio as an after-thought, no real production. The budget goes right along with it. You have to hand over a finished product for a limited budget with no way to sell an "upgrade".

It's at this level that being able to produce a professional level product in "no-time" is a requirement. Any extra time will not result in more money, just less profit.

A lot of the stuff we do is handed over as finished DVD's in 24 hours or less.

And neither our audio or video suck like that one.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Andrew....


I think we have to consider the level of business where this occurred. This is a home-made production by the guys wife. Random video crew, audio as an after-thought, no real production. The budget goes right along with it. You have to hand over a finished product for a limited budget with no way to sell an "upgrade".

It's at this level that being able to produce a professional level product in "no-time" is a requirement. Any extra time will not result in more money, just less profit.

A lot of the stuff we do is handed over as finished DVD's in 24 hours or less.

And neither our audio or video suck like that one.

I've had bad recordings cost me a few bucks along the way (usually computer or interface crashes, not bad mixes :)), so now I always have a backup. If it means hitting the record button on Reaper so I have a multitrack available, so be it. If Daniel had a multitrack available, he'd spend an hour mixing it and have no issue pleasing his client. And he wouldn't be offering a refund at all.

Backups are good when it comes to things like recordings.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

I think we have to consider the level of business where this occurred. This is a home-made production by the guys wife. Random video crew, audio as an after-thought, no real production. The budget goes right along with it. You have to hand over a finished product for a limited budget with no way to sell an "upgrade".

Don't know what you mean by home-made production, the video is produced by Rocket Productions

I do agree that one can't routinely spend a lot of time polishing a product that is sold at a price that makes post recording work basically a freebie, but to have a multitrack backup to save the day when there is a screw-up makes a lot of sense if making that multitrack costs very little. If the screw-up is your own, then you have the means to fix it, if the screw-up is somebody elses, you have something that that someone else might be willing to pay for.
You don't become a hero for smooth running, but saving the day when everything is fucked up ...... 8)~:cool:~:cool:
 
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Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Per...

By home-made production I mean that the lady client did random hiring of the various crews. There was no "producer" to coordinate the various production components (audio/video/logistics).

I wonder why the video crew had no audio guy?
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

I agree about the hour spent doing basic editing can yield a far superior result and if using templates is not difficult. I do this often and build the charge in.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

Don't know what you mean by home-made production, the video is produced by Rocket Productions

I do agree that one can't routinely spend a lot of time polishing a product that is sold at a price that makes post recording work basically a freebie, but to have a multitrack backup to save the day when there is a screw-up makes a lot of sense if making that multitrack costs very little. If the screw-up is your own, then you have the means to fix it, if the screw-up is somebody elses, you have something that that someone else might be willing to pay for.
You don't become a hero for smooth running, but saving the day when everything is fucked up ...... 8)~:cool:~:cool:

+1
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

I had resisted posting this before, but I'll lay it out there.

Why I multi track everything: (i.e. memory is cheap)

Similar thing to the OP happened to me last month. I show up to a gig and the band says "by the way a video crew will be here to film the second set and they need a board feed......" No video sound check, middle of gig, GREAT!
I gave the video crew a monitor out, remote access to the board to mix their send and called it good. The next week I get a call from the band saying the audio was horrible. I said no prob I'll upload the individual .wav files to my google drive, you can download them and mix them however you want. Client was happy, they ended up punching some tracks and polishing to make a great finished product. Other than upload time it took me 5 minutes tops.

Didn't post this at first to avoid rubbing salt in OP's wound. But tech is cheap right now, I don't see a reason not to use it.
 
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Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

It sounds like someone "helped" convince her to ask for all of her money back between when you talked to her the 1st time (25% discount) and the 2nd time. Your problem with this job brings up a bigger issue: how do we as an industry deal with the potential unreliability of wireless technologies? Although it doesn't seem that all of the mic problems were from wireless drop outs (seemed like some missed cues as well) the fact that there are problems with mics dropping out is real and many laymen clients don't understand the situation the way seasoned professionals do. In this case you had an event with a very important segment that only lasted a few minutes and it pretty much had to be done with wireless mics. Those are the hardest. It doesn't surprise me that something went wrong (just out of curiosity, what wireless were u using?). I'm surprised the video editor didn't use some camera mic mixed in. That might have saved it. Of course, it may have been the video co who convinced the client that the sound co was entirely at fault. In that case they wanted the sound to be as bad as possible when they showed it to the client.

Also, did the sound tech have to work out the switch from handheld to headset near the beginning of the song? That might have been a source of distraction.
I offered the 25 percent discount initially because my engineer said things had not gone well and I wanted to address it sooner rather than have her ask me for it. To address some of the other things said so far...

--There was no video producer to coordinate the production.

--There were many sources of distraction, from the moment our crew arrived even. While my engineer was supposed to be setting up shortly after arriving, she was instead grabbed by the client to go over the script.

--The gear was Shure SLX wireless. It wasn't an RF dropout (I have found them to be very stable), rather it was a bad connection somewhere in the chain, and my engineer couldn't find it. As I said before, I learned an expensive lesson about her inability to troubleshoot under pressure. I haven't really given her a hard time about this event though because I think she realizes how bad it is, and--this is a different topic entirely--I've seen too many young women traumatized out of the audio world.

--I did not upcharge for the feed, and this gets to the core of the lesson here. It's a separate service, and it requires either more preparation or more equipment.

--I don't think anyone coached her into demanding the refund. My business partner is convinced that she didn't know what she was supposed to get, but I couldn't really argue that with her when the final product sounded as bad as it did.

--Should the videographer have taken some responsibility for the audio, and communicated his needs to us better in the runup to the event (which was only a week, BTW)? Yes. But, to Dick Rees and Per's points, it wasn't that kind of show. It was almost literally a neighborhood production; the videographer was a personal friend from the neighborhood of the client, and the venue was in the neighborhood, etc.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

I had resisted posting this before, but I'll lay it out there.

Why I multi track everything: (i.e. memory is cheap)

Similar thing to the OP happened to me last month. I show up to a gig and the band says "by the way a video crew will be here to film the second set and they need a board feed......" No video sound check, middle of gig, GREAT!
I gave the video crew a monitor out, remote access to the board to mix their send and called it good. The next week I get a call from the band saying the audio was horrible. I said no prob I'll upload the individual .wav files to my google drive, you can download them and mix them however you want. Client was happy, they ended up punching some tracks and polishing to make a great finished product. Other than upload time it took me 5 minutes tops.

Didn't post this at first to avoid rubbing salt in OP's wound. But tech is cheap right now, I don't see a reason not to use it.
Jeff, it's not actually my wound, so don't worry about it.

The problem here is that we're basically 10 years behind when it comes to the use of computers in conjunction with live audio.

I have a background in both mac and windows, but I operate the company from a different state. My business partner is a top notch engineer, fantastic at client relations, and knows his way around any digital console, but he is completely lost on an actual computer. He's 35 or so and I'm struggling to figure out how to get him up to speed in this regard.

So, even if we had a laptop with Reaper running, I wouldn't be able to trust him or anyone else on my crew at the moment to get it set up properly.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

I had resisted posting this before, but I'll lay it out there.

Why I multi track everything: (i.e. memory is cheap)

Similar thing to the OP happened to me last month. I show up to a gig and the band says "by the way a video crew will be here to film the second set and they need a board feed......" No video sound check, middle of gig, GREAT!
I gave the video crew a monitor out, remote access to the board to mix their send and called it good. The next week I get a call from the band saying the audio was horrible. I said no prob I'll upload the individual .wav files to my google drive, you can download them and mix them however you want. Client was happy, they ended up punching some tracks and polishing to make a great finished product. Other than upload time it took me 5 minutes tops.

Didn't post this at first to avoid rubbing salt in OP's wound. But tech is cheap right now, I don't see a reason not to use it.

Never just 'hand over' a multitrack. It has value and you should be charging for it.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

That depends on who you are giving it to. Odds are you may have made the recording but don't own the rights.
Actually, you have the right to withhold the recording pending payment. What you can't do is commercially exploit the recorded works. No rights to the composition or lyrics are transferred, nor does the recordist have a right market the recording itself... but as a work done for hire you can withhold the deliverable until payment is made.
 
Actually, you have the right to withhold the recording pending payment. What you can't do is commercially exploit the recorded works. No rights to the composition or lyrics are transferred, nor does the recordist have a right market the recording itself... but as a work done for hire you can withhold the deliverable until payment is made.

Yep,

But I was mostly referring to giving the material to a third party.

You know when the third VP in charge of meaningless corp events calls to ask if you have the recording of the band at the last Christmas party because he wants it for background on a video for the TV in the ceo's john.
 
Re: Event Board Recording SNAFU

That depends on who you are giving it to. Odds are you may have made the recording but don't own the rights.
Actually, you own the mechanical rights to that recording and can do what ever you want with it within those rights. The performance and music material is still protected by other rights.

You know when the third VP in charge of meaningless corp events calls to ask if you have the recording of the band at the last Christmas party because he wants it for background on a video for the TV in the ceo's john.
This means that the meaningless VP can have your recording for review, but that VP must then seek the proper rights form the music holders and performers to actually use the recorded material. Even the one who owns the mechanical rights is entitled to get som money out of this.

This is very important to understand, if you let someone record your bands music/artistic performance. Unless there are specific agreements written the band/artist(s) have no rights to the recording and may not distribute it without permission from the recording person/company without permission because they own the mechanical rights - Not the band!
 
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