12v Eco project sound system

Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Dan:
It seems that there is some issues of direction/purpose in the mission, that prevent me from giving clear "advice"...
If it's to be mobile that involves consideration: small enough to be moved and robust enough to take it vs a permanent install.
There is a maxim called Hoffman's Iron Law, and it is an acceptance of reality of how big a sound reproducer has to be vs how low the reproduction demands vs how loud it has to be. And that's just the performance aspects being considered: not considering the cost or intended social statement.
Is this project an attempt to just utilize the latest in technology for efficiency? or is it to include recycling which attempts to utilize what is already available ( albeit not the latest most efficient technology )?
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

you always ask poignant question robert dont you? :)

- well as regards soundsystem: definably not just an "attempt to just utilize the latest in technology for efficiency" - we dont mind old or new tech
our ideas center around a fusion of old and new 'elcrofolk craft' or 'folktronic' in nature. not rejecting one for the other but in constructing are project though considering the traditional and modern approaches. ideally 'what works best' would be what we go with.

it dont need to be new, if we can harness or give new life to something that is being discarded then brilliant. if components have stories then great. for example. perhaps we find some great 'old' drivers [that are as sensitive/efficient as any modern one we were looking at] and build them a new home. each step leads to the next and the greater whole evolves.
we have 12v power
we want to turn this into sound [not just loud noise] most effectively with the knowledge and skills and at our disposal.
with care and attention to detail.
size weight wise, anything near or like these BF cab discussed is fine.
we are outdoors under a canopy in open space and they would need to be build robustly.

...any better?
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Daniel Cumberland said:
hi there

i am wanting to build a super Efficient sound system for our eco project 'Treadle'.

the idea is to generate pro quality audio converting our 12v dc power most efficiently and effectively into sound [DB].
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12v will limit the power you can easily generate. High power car systems use DC to DC conversion to get higher working voltages.
from what i understand it is possible to achieve a pretty decent sound level [100 db?]and quality. for a capacity of around 100-200 people.
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dB at what distance? 100-200 indoors? outdoors? inside a phone booth?
my findings thus far [and bare in mind please i am still very much a newbie to these sound matters]

- active crossover [separating high and low frequencies pre-amplification]
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yes- this will allow you to you the most efficient driver for each bandpass, without passive padding to balance levels. And using individual amps per bandpass will give you more effective power, than one single larger amp of the same combined power.
- 4 x mono block Class D/T amps @around 20watts/channel [subs R/L - Tops R/L]
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Indeed class D, will give most output from battery. Tripath is not the only class D option.
- 2 x highly efficient tops + 2 x hightly efficient Subs
[previously i was posting on the billfitzmaurice site and looking at the DR250's and Titan 39's]
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Perhaps an old school folded horn for the sub... definitely a high efficiency design.
we will play electronica and Bass sounds, as well as live instrumentation from time to time.
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The heavy bass will eat up power and amplifier headroom, so you may want to lower your expectations for lots of deep bass.
now b4 i went ahead and purchased the designs for the cabs i wanted to ask some knowaglbe folk about their opinion on both bills speakers and my set up ideas?

COMPROMISE & CONTEMPLATIONS

- BUILD - more sophisticated - over simplicity [active crossover-time-complexity]
- SIZE - Efficiency - rather than smallness
- SOUND - Subs & Tops - Over all in One
- COST - more efficient cabs [bigger builds] do not seem to be considerably more expensive.

we dont have tons of cash, we like to give new life to dis-guarded objects
generate our own power and recycle.
but we do have time [not a wkend build] and construction skills.

any import would be very much appreciated

thx

wellington
Click to expand...

Good luck... you have started in the right direction...
'
JR
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Daniel Cumberland said:
"DR300 to an EAW KF760"

now u see this is where im gullible as i dont know my DR From My KF....
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I suspect you are not the only one, and this ridiculous comparison is thus successfully used to promote the DR.

Consider a few things (echoing what I've said elsewhere).


DR300 = single 12" LF and 2 1" HF's
KF760 = 2x12, 2x10 and 2x2"HF.
Both boxes are horn loaded.

The EAW uses MUCH higher quality drivers, and has a REAL HF waveguide suitable for a line array box (consistent path length, etc, etc).

Output aside, IMHO none of the Eminence compression drivers or the HF horns specified in the plans are of suitable quality for a professional cabinet. Neither are the "melded arrays". They are often usable, but they are simply not made (or priced) in the same league as some of the professional offerings from other manufacturers. Cheaping out on the HF saves $ but does nothing to yield good HF results.

And yet the marketing suggests that the DR300 outshines the KF760, including the claim that it has 7db more long term LF output and it can supposedly do 135db LONG TERM (not peak!) from a single eminence 12" driver.

<insert sarcasm>

I guess EAW's designers must be incompetent - clearly they do not understand horn loading and must have made major design flaws for their horn loaded design with twice as many drivers to lag behind by 7db. That Kenton guy is a newbie I hear. I guess Fitz has the "horn magic" figured out...... Why spend thousands when you can have something better for $400........ oh, and by the way, there is no certified means of flying them, but that's nothing to worry about......

</sarcasm>

RIGHT.

Sorry for the detour on this thread. This hits a nerve with me as the marketing is intentionally very very misleading.
 
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Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Dan:
Because this is a forum whose focus is on Pro; The replies reflect the "Pro" sound market.
By a very loose definition making money in audio is "Pro", and undeniably there are many different levels of sound work.
There are full time professionals ( some tour some don't ) and there are professionals who work in varying aspects of sound or "niches".
Because there is too much at stake in a Professional environment ( primarily money ) there is attention to specifications and measurements.
On a contract rider ( besides indulgences ) are listed the hard performance requirements: like what type of equipment is acceptable ( and what is not ) and often measurements of SPL levels at various distances. Because no one is going to gamble with big money on "unknowns".
Jeff touched on some of the issues in a DIY site where profit is the reason for existing. Protection of interest creates conflict of interests.
The more performance data that can be provided the better the chance of success. Without a certain level of assurance of performance that can be quantified a sound system has a much lesser chance of working. That requires data that is missing on the BF site.
Often the decisions made in a speaker design reflects a "philosophy" of approach. The designs reflects the designers and their goals.
Goals and philosophy vary: Personally I prefer to start from a flat response ,and I would not ever consider a flat line source without shading.
By all means evaluate options and BF designs, but do it objectively. Your situation is different from a room or club indoors. If at all possible demo outdoors.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

I'd just like to make it clear, I'm not telling Daniel that BF stuff wouldn't work. It might be fine - it really depends on his expectations. My point was to not expect high-end results despite what may be claimed.

If it were me doing this, and I wanted lots of output on little power for low budget, I'd consider a couple of routes:

Option A - use some of the newer Class-D based self powered speakers. In powered speakers, the designers have typically already optimized the design for efficiency and performance, sometimes to a degree greater than what you could easily achieve with your own combination of external amplifiers and cabs. At the low end of the market, cheap examples include the new Peavey Impulse series cabs, which have ribbon based HF, and actually sound pretty respectable. Whether or not they'd be loud enough for your use is TBD, you haven't clarified that yet. Pair some powered tops with some horn loaded subs.

Option B - use some older horn loaded professional speakers, such as Turbo Floodlight or similar designs. These are big and heavy, but get very loud and they sell dirt cheap these days.

Of course this is all totally dependent on how much output you need, and at what distance. I suspect a little powered box like the impulse is less than you are looking for, but we're just guessing until you fill us in. Likewise a box like the Flood might be overkill, who knows right now.

Also, considering the very low frequencies in the music you seek to reproduce, I'll again mention the Waves Maxxbass processor. You'll work very hard to get good low sub extension, Maxxbass is a pretty effective cheat to help accomplish this. The 102 model is very inexpensive.
 
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Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Among the things I admire about the work of guys like Don Keele and Bob McCarthy is their treating speaker designs in a utilitarian manner: as tools, not one size fits all miracle solutions.
Audio is subject to hype and hyperbole, but it doesn't get to defy Physics
As Jeff said: Determine if you need the lowest octave as it increases the system requirements x4 and may not be needed. ( lower response means much bigger box if the same SPL is to be maintained with max efficiency)
Since I used a mobile 12V sound system for many years my advice reflects my experience.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Jeff,

I suspect the OP would be better off with an "old school" big horn loaded system simple because, like the Prius, if it doesn't look different than what the local DJ on a stick is doing, how can it be the solution they are looking for? The whole point of the project is to show off how efficient they can be, even if that may not actually be that significant. I think especially if the OP can get some older, big boxes that look different from modern PAs, and some older amplifiers that someone's unloading for cheap (even if they aren't in fact as efficient, the budget probably doesn't support something modern, and for 40 watts what does it matter?) even if he uses a modern DSP (recommended!) the overall effect will be as intended.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

thx u lot
i must say i am loving the banter though some does of it goes over my head somewhat.
jeff notable points on what u get for ur dosh is fair enough and i guess i half expected that and why i seek advice else where.
and we do need something that will work outside in afield not in a club.
i dont know enough about building to know what to look for in old kit
and am hoping to learn enough to build an appropriate rig for the money we have.
though illd love to give some fabulous old drives a new home if i had any clue what to look for.
we are not pro audio guys. nor in it for money. but we love sound! the energy the feel of it. we dont need to boast about data readings or power etc. but we do not wana bodge or show off. just present true and honest sound with feeling.
i love this rob "treating speaker designs in a utilitarian manner: as tools, not one size fits all miracle solutions"
sounds exactly what we looking for. i read up on them. they got designs?
if big means more efficient there's no overkill and i guess yes we are looking for something a little more substantial than an all in one box. and to learn and play upgrade rehouse rebuild etc as we learn.
i not sure how to do it [wiv crossover?] but we could probably compromise to loose some freq at lower end [octave] as i suspect it wouldnt be so noticeable to us [would it]
if the power isnt significant at all we will have to rethink and perhaps run our batteries in parallel not series getting some new 24v amps and then seeing how we get on with that. but ideally we prefer 12v.
and who ever said that about the fm radios i recon must have hacked into my notes... strange u shld have said that....
and we hope ends justify means as long as we be as environmentally aware as we can and then its more about the idea of working in tandem with our environment and not to just not give a dam. it looks after us we look after it.
in it?

whats a DSP bennett?
no we got some 'on a stick' JBLs 4 that. i like the simplicity of big horns to make use of sound more efficant. i thought they would take more power and thats all kind o nice. 'ohh look at our big horns they use no power but make good use of that they have' that works for me.
looking different isnt the motivation but i would like to believe our approach was slightly different.

so i know i need active cross over [just figured out what dsp is bennett thx looks good]
we thinking of some mid range aps at 12v just to test with.
some horned big cabs
so
just need some designs and instructions on what drivers and how to assemble...
why might i be finding these things then?

right im off to do my homework
dwc
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

interesting to learn you did some 12v systems robert!
any pics? bet u inverted though no?
and much bigger...? how much bigger...? we have just extended the canopy of our structure. were about 10m closed and 15 open at the moment.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Daniel Cumberland said:
bet u inverted though no?
and much bigger...?
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It was an annual parade system and it was always a limited budget.
Inverters were tried and rejected.
The last version used has 4 cabs ( each with a 12's and HF horn ) 2 on each channel of a 2 channel large car amp.
Admittedly they sacrificed bass for SPL output, and had the parades continued, another amp and subs were in the plans. It was loud enough but bass limited.
One thing to consider is that my system played recorded music ONLY - I haven't found a 12V mixer and EQ; those are required for mixing musicians.

Bottom line: How big is your budget?
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

to start with we would be happy with just recorded music.
[though ive a 12v 4ch vestax mixer with 3 mic inputs [for hiphop-but used it to do some other bits successfully]
and surely cld do all that through fire wire / midi sound card and computer?

what does SPL mean again [solid ......level]?
budget = $1000 ish [better if we can get great discarded stuff and build our own purpose built cabs though and do for less in the same respect for doing it right we wldnt skimp on an extra $100 or so]

12's-meaning drivers and hf - high freq.
was reading bout line arrays n CBT [which was less easy 4 me to catch]
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Bennett Prescott said:
Jeff,

I suspect the OP would be better off with an "old school" big horn loaded system simple because, like the Prius, if it doesn't look different than what the local DJ on a stick is doing, how can it be the solution they are looking for? The whole point of the project is to show off how efficient they can be, even if that may not actually be that significant.
Click to expand...

Ya, you're right about this one. I kind of got sidetracked from the fact that this is a research project which will have a publicly visible "presentation. The Prius analogy is perfect. "Looking" efficient is going to be key.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

yeah true guys
but we dont just want to be "looking" without substance.
i would prefer to have the efficiency presented in the sound / or be unnoticed then merely appear to be efficient.
of course this said i would love that its looks compliment our approach :)

cheers for the links syd!
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Daniel Cumberland said:
budget = $1000 ish [better if we can get great discarded stuff and build our own purpose built cabs though and do for less in the same respect for doing it right we wldnt skimp on an extra $100 or so]
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Yikes, that's going to be tight. I think with only $1000 in the budget for the entire project, you have no choice but to find some really old school used horn cabs or else build something. Based on what you've said - a couple hundred people and outdoors - I expect you will quickly eat up your budget just trying to get all of the necessary components and be loud enough. You'll probably have to put sound quality and even coverage somewhat on the back burner in order to accomplish other priorities.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

That's not the whole project! just the sound. we hope to build ourselves. going of how much the BF designs cost to build between $150/200 though that would be doable!
To build something we can add to and replace components as we go along was the idea.
 
Re: 12v Eco project sound system

Daniel Cumberland said:
That's not the whole project! just the sound. we hope to build ourselves. going of how much the BF designs cost to build between $150/200 though that would be doable!
To build something we can add to and replace components as we go along was the idea.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about US dollars, $1000 for sound, considering speakers, cabling, amplification, processing, etc is very difficult to pull off. You could easily spend that on amps and DSP alone buying what many would consider to be quite entry-level items.

I also think that hoping to build a BF design for $150-200 is pretty unrealistic when you factor in all of the costs. Consider some of these: speakers, plywood, connector plates and jacks, wire, crossover components, construction adhesives, saw blades, sandpaper, filler, paint, handles, corners, grill, feet, etc. The little stuff really adds up, even if you use the cheapest drivers.
 
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