Having trouble getting a good idea of how much "extension" I would need to bring to a bar or club with an underspec'd PA to do bass heavy music. Not worried about power because I have plenty of it (8000w available for subs), but wondering what sort of speaker coverage I would need to hit subs hard. I understand infra\air is a different game and I'm not interested in chasing that right now. Interested in hearing some perspectives!
250 cap venue for "bass heavy" music... will a 2x18 do it proper?
- Thread starter Herbert McInnes
- Start date
Well a 2x18 comes in various levels of performance.
8000w doesn't tell us much about the amp. Like is that that 8000w bridged @ 4ohm or is that a 4ch amp capable of doing 2000w per channel @ 8 ohms.
Curious... what is already in there? whats your budget, new or used?
8000w doesn't tell us much about the amp. Like is that that 8000w bridged @ 4ohm or is that a 4ch amp capable of doing 2000w per channel @ 8 ohms.
Curious... what is already in there? whats your budget, new or used?
As mentioned above, not all 2x18» are created equal. What kind of subs/amp are we talking about?
That being said, I ran a small venue of similar size for years with 2x EAW SB1000z with proper processing/power. Enough headroom for regular shows with reserves available for the «bass heavy» stuff. Never blew a driver even when the DJs tested the red lights on their mixer.
That being said, I ran a small venue of similar size for years with 2x EAW SB1000z with proper processing/power. Enough headroom for regular shows with reserves available for the «bass heavy» stuff. Never blew a driver even when the DJs tested the red lights on their mixer.
Remember you don't have 8000 'real' Watts available from your amp, and it's likely to collapse on sustained LF tones such as dub reggae. Probably ok on most normal music but if you are keeping this amp I would consider four 18s, one on each channel which would probably be a little kinder on the amp and offer better headroom with future amp expansion. In most instances you can never have too much bass capacity available, and any system will sound better if the bass side isn't operating continuously at '11'!
As has been pointed out, 18s come in many colours, with BMS probably being top of the tree.
As has been pointed out, 18s come in many colours, with BMS probably being top of the tree.
So probably not then? Would you run just one? If I’m reading this right that was 2 double 18s.
My local doings:
A good rule-of-thumb I use in local club work: live band=one 15/2 mid/hi over single 18" sub per side, DJ=live band rig with double (or triple) the subs.
I have found that DJ's are way-harder on gear than bands (at the local level).
With DJ's 2x/3x the subs are a necessity. Why beat-on "just enough" cabs when you can cruise along in the green?
A good rule-of-thumb I use in local club work: live band=one 15/2 mid/hi over single 18" sub per side, DJ=live band rig with double (or triple) the subs.
I have found that DJ's are way-harder on gear than bands (at the local level).
With DJ's 2x/3x the subs are a necessity. Why beat-on "just enough" cabs when you can cruise along in the green?
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I have never met a DJ that plays down to the PA system, in my experience it doesn't matter if the sound system consists of a pair of speakers on sticks or giant flown array with a small mountain of subs, the DJ plays exactly the same way and will mercilessly overdrive the big system as bad as anything else... if that is how they roll. They are not all this bad however, there are some that actually care about sound quality and generally keep it clean, but they still produce the same levels out of thier desk/console regardless of what sound system is in front of them.
As far as how much sub to bring to a venue, there is no such thing as too much for the DJs or the guests with modern music genres, but there may be a "too much" for the venue and it's neighbors, I have a venue near me that recently put in a 2 single 18" sub limit as a result of getting tens of thousands of dollars in fines for noise violations. Two 18" subs are not enough for this ~500cap venue but guess what.. last time I was in there everybody partied and had a good time and AFAIK no fines were issued so it is what it is.
As far as how much sub to bring to a venue, there is no such thing as too much for the DJs or the guests with modern music genres, but there may be a "too much" for the venue and it's neighbors, I have a venue near me that recently put in a 2 single 18" sub limit as a result of getting tens of thousands of dollars in fines for noise violations. Two 18" subs are not enough for this ~500cap venue but guess what.. last time I was in there everybody partied and had a good time and AFAIK no fines were issued so it is what it is.
What do you think they were running before? This would be interesting to explore, because it might actually turn out that having a small cap venue with a slightly overspec'd sub system to be ideal. Loud enough that wow, but not enough to piss everyone off.
I had previously brought a pair of double 18s into this venue and I have seen others bring 2 or 3 times that into it.. and I gather that is when it started to become a problem.
There are several ways to approach sizing of a system in a venue but one of them is playing to the dance floor only and not concerning yourself with achieving a particular level of sound everywhere in the venue. With low frequencies in particular it is often not possible to achieve even coverage indoors due to cancellations caused by reflections and the fact that the only way to even out the response is with subs distributed around the venue.
if your veneu has a house system with little or no subbage then for sure.. a modern fully powered 218 on the dance floor will bring an added experience the guests haven't experienced before, and that may be good enough. Feeling the impact of a kick drum is all about air displacement so more drivers is always better, but you have to ask yourself how much extra work you want to do for no extra pay, and don't forget about the electrical requirements this has, you're not pulling 8kw of subwoofer power from a 120v 15A circuit this will require a dedicated 30A 240v circuit.
There are several ways to approach sizing of a system in a venue but one of them is playing to the dance floor only and not concerning yourself with achieving a particular level of sound everywhere in the venue. With low frequencies in particular it is often not possible to achieve even coverage indoors due to cancellations caused by reflections and the fact that the only way to even out the response is with subs distributed around the venue.
if your veneu has a house system with little or no subbage then for sure.. a modern fully powered 218 on the dance floor will bring an added experience the guests haven't experienced before, and that may be good enough. Feeling the impact of a kick drum is all about air displacement so more drivers is always better, but you have to ask yourself how much extra work you want to do for no extra pay, and don't forget about the electrical requirements this has, you're not pulling 8kw of subwoofer power from a 120v 15A circuit this will require a dedicated 30A 240v circuit.
Basically for several months I've been trying to sort out how to deal with under powered (no sub) 250 cap or less bars and it's been an absolute battle trying to sort that out. So 4-6 double 18s is sort of the overkill situation at 500 cap. How do you think that scales down to 250? Is the 4-6 double 18s at 250 cap just 2 double 18s?
Despite what many people think, it _is_ possible to get a decent rock mix on a rig with no subs. You will, however, need to think a bit more about how you manage the mix. Things like a HPF on the kick (take the thump up an octave, a bit more click), and letting the harmonics of the bass guitar do the heavy lifting can help significantly. And most tops go down to perhaps 70hz (even the little ones), which is plenty deep for rock even if you'd prefer the ability to go deeper.
But if you want to bring in more sub, a pair of good double 18s will be more than you need in pretty much every 250 cap room I've worked in.
It's not about how many people, it's about AREA. How many square feet/meters?
I tend to agree that for most contemporary genres, there is no such thing as "too much sub" in the eyes of the band, DJ, and a good bit of the audience. One can always turn them down or unplug half of them (-6dB, instantly), but one cannot make more appear from thin air when needed, so there is that.
One of the 'sleeper' subs for almost a decade was the JBL SRX728. Not quite up to the VerTec 4880 sub, but close. Fifteen years ago there were tons of VerTec 4888 and 4889 rigs with SRX728 subs. We just sold our last 16 of those subs a couple weeks ago.
All subs are not created equal, either. There are plenty of 2x 18" subs that didn't perform as well as the 728, and some others that were better (and more expensive). A long term plan is to buy the highest-output subs, because that's the base upon which multiples will be built.
To double the SPL (+3dB) you need to double the cone (piston) area. Doubling the available current (another amplifier, usually) can give another 3dB. It's advantageous to start with better performance if you're going to be needing more subbage in the future. If one needed 4 subwoofers to achieve a specified output level, using subs that have 3dB more acoustic output with the same electrical input would mean one would only need 2 subwoofers. Those more efficient/sensitive subs will cost more, perhaps 3dB$, but then need only half the truck/van/trailer space, half the storage space, etc.
Have fun, good luck.
I tend to agree that for most contemporary genres, there is no such thing as "too much sub" in the eyes of the band, DJ, and a good bit of the audience. One can always turn them down or unplug half of them (-6dB, instantly), but one cannot make more appear from thin air when needed, so there is that.
One of the 'sleeper' subs for almost a decade was the JBL SRX728. Not quite up to the VerTec 4880 sub, but close. Fifteen years ago there were tons of VerTec 4888 and 4889 rigs with SRX728 subs. We just sold our last 16 of those subs a couple weeks ago.
All subs are not created equal, either. There are plenty of 2x 18" subs that didn't perform as well as the 728, and some others that were better (and more expensive). A long term plan is to buy the highest-output subs, because that's the base upon which multiples will be built.
To double the SPL (+3dB) you need to double the cone (piston) area. Doubling the available current (another amplifier, usually) can give another 3dB. It's advantageous to start with better performance if you're going to be needing more subbage in the future. If one needed 4 subwoofers to achieve a specified output level, using subs that have 3dB more acoustic output with the same electrical input would mean one would only need 2 subwoofers. Those more efficient/sensitive subs will cost more, perhaps 3dB$, but then need only half the truck/van/trailer space, half the storage space, etc.
Have fun, good luck.
If controlling the low end (which is hard to do and the likely source of noise complaints) is going to be a problem, consider adding a Waves Maxxbass processor. They are a very useful tool for DJ rigs.
They can give the acoustic illusion of very low bass, leave the real upper bass in place to maintain the "punch in the chest" and generally get you a little more mileage with your sub setup, all while minimizing the problems of low frequencies leaking out of your venue.
I've also used it in venues where the subs were causing major rattling of the HVAC system. Turn on the MaxxBass and it still feels huge but the lowest frequencies that were causing the problem are now gone and replaced by harmonics/psychoacoustic effect.
MaxxBCL are nice but expensive and hard to find, there are a few other models of hardware for this, and any console with the Waves integration has access to the plugin which could be applied on the main mix.
They can give the acoustic illusion of very low bass, leave the real upper bass in place to maintain the "punch in the chest" and generally get you a little more mileage with your sub setup, all while minimizing the problems of low frequencies leaking out of your venue.
I've also used it in venues where the subs were causing major rattling of the HVAC system. Turn on the MaxxBass and it still feels huge but the lowest frequencies that were causing the problem are now gone and replaced by harmonics/psychoacoustic effect.
MaxxBCL are nice but expensive and hard to find, there are a few other models of hardware for this, and any console with the Waves integration has access to the plugin which could be applied on the main mix.
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