29 Forums?!?

J

Jason Lavoie

Junior
Jan 13, 2011
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0
16
Ottawa
So, I finally decided to check out the new (other new) forums.

not sure what to expect, I was horrified to find no less than 29 separate forums
icon_eek.gif




When the number gets that high anyone involved should have seen that combining that many communities was probably not a good idea.

I mean, the ''basement'' is in the middle, clearly because the old LAB forums are grouped together, but to a newcomer none of those lines will make any sense, and it won't be long before it all just becomes a blur of randomly placed posts.



Even if everything remained the same (software, post history, etc) but they crammed everything together like that, I'm sure that alone would be enough to turn me off.



Jason

 
Re: 29 Forums?!?

Jason Lavoie wrote on Sat said:
So, I finally decided to check out the new (other new) forums.

not sure what to expect, I was horrified to find no less than 29 separate forums
icon_eek.gif




When the number gets that high anyone involved should have seen that combining that many communities was probably not a good idea.

I mean, the ''basement'' is in the middle, clearly because the old LAB forums are grouped together, but to a newcomer none of those lines will make any sense, and it won't be long before it all just becomes a blur of randomly placed posts.



Even if everything remained the same (software, post history, etc) but they crammed everything together like that, I'm sure that alone would be enough to turn me off.



Jason
Click to expand...



I have to assume you chose not to read the announcements that say ''Please Read'', or you would have found out how to join one or more membergroups to control which communities you want to join. It is a lot of forums, with 2 very different communities with the SR forums combined with the R/E/P recording forums, but membergroups lets you pick and choose among them. Even without membergroups each section can be collapsed so it is not taking up screen real estate, but that still leaves the new messages in the other forums in your new messages que. Membergroups limits the messages in your new messages que as well as hiding the unwanted forums.



The SMF version of PSW is admittedly a work in progress, which is why the FUD version is still running. It is through the participation of the members that we will find out what needs to be changed. Those who are participating are the ones who will help shape what the site becomes.



It is taking time to get the changes we want implemented. We are still about a month away from when the SMF version of PSW becomes the primary, and then only version, with the the FUD version available only as a searchable archive. There is still time to make a lot of changes before then, and there will be time after that while the forums are fully live.



I don't expect I will be posting here often, but I will correct misinterpretations of what is going on at PSW.



Mac
 
Re: 29 Forums?!?

Jason Lavoie wrote on Sat said:
So, I finally decided to check out the new (other new) forums.

not sure what to expect, I was horrified to find no less than 29 separate forums
Click to expand...



You want to see a lot of forums? Go check out the Sax on the Web forums. There's over 130 separate sub forums, including the ones in French. Granted it's all the same community, but damn, does every 2-bit manufacturer and every single piece of equipment need it's own forum. FWIW, I only read about three or four of the forums on a regular basis.



(PS SOTW is bigger than even the old LAB (87,000+ members, 1.2 million posts, and 120,000+ threads)

 
Re: 29 Forums?!?

Mac Kerr wrote on Sat said:
Jason Lavoie wrote on Sat said:
So, I finally decided to check out the new (other new) forums.

not sure what to expect, I was horrified to find no less than 29 separate forums
icon_eek.gif




When the number gets that high anyone involved should have seen that combining that many communities was probably not a good idea.

I mean, the ''basement'' is in the middle, clearly because the old LAB forums are grouped together, but to a newcomer none of those lines will make any sense, and it won't be long before it all just becomes a blur of randomly placed posts.



Even if everything remained the same (software, post history, etc) but they crammed everything together like that, I'm sure that alone would be enough to turn me off.



Jason
Click to expand...



I have to assume you chose not to read the announcements that say ''Please Read'', or you would have found out how to join one or more membergroups to control which communities you want to join. It is a lot of forums, with 2 very different communities with the SR forums combined with the R/E/P recording forums, but membergroups lets you pick and choose among them. Even without membergroups each section can be collapsed so it is not taking up screen real estate, but that still leaves the new messages in the other forums in your new messages que. Membergroups limits the messages in your new messages que as well as hiding the unwanted forums.



The SMF version of PSW is admittedly a work in progress, which is why the FUD version is still running. It is through the participation of the members that we will find out what needs to be changed. Those who are participating are the ones who will help shape what the site becomes.



It is taking time to get the changes we want implemented. We are still about a month away from when the SMF version of PSW becomes the primary, and then only version, with the the FUD version available only as a searchable archive. There is still time to make a lot of changes before then, and there will be time after that while the forums are fully live.



I don't expect I will be posting here often, but I will correct misinterpretations of what is going on at PSW.



Mac
Click to expand...



Yes, I can read.

But every new user coming in won't. No matter how many warnings you put up, and it will undoubtedly lead to a LOT of misplaced posts and confusion.

Hiding some of the forums in my view will make it a bit easier to navigate but it won't solve the snr problem



Thanks for reaching out, but talking to everyone like they're flat out wrong when they are expressing likes/dislikes about a certain situation is why I'm here more than there



Jason

 
Only 29 Forums?!?

Jason Lavoie wrote on Sun said:
Yes, I can read.

But every new user coming in won't. No matter how many warnings you put up, and it will undoubtedly lead to a LOT of misplaced posts and confusion.

Hiding some of the forums in my view will make it a bit easier to navigate but it won't solve the snr problem



Thanks for reaching out, but talking to everyone like they're flat out wrong when they are expressing likes/dislikes about a certain situation is why I'm here more than there
Click to expand...



I don't think I implied that you can't read, only that you chose not to.



A new user to any forum is going to be confused, and will make mistakes. A lot of what moderators do is correct those mistakes. We have tried to minimize having to make that effort by having fairly clear instructions both in the announcement section of the new site, and as a yellow announcement at the top of every page in the FUD site to highlight the differences between the new and old.



Anyone is welcome to like or not like any site on the Internet. All we can do as operators is try to make the site as attractive and useful to users as possible. Part of that was getting away from the buggy and not very well supported FUD software. That change caused major upsets in the way everything gets done, and the tools to migrate FUD data from 4 different cross pollinated member databases didn't work. The result is we are pretty much in the same situation as when we started with FUD in 2004, having to archive old data, and learn a new way of interacting with the site.



We will continue to learn new ways of interacting with the site as it develops over the coming months. As the users point out issues they get considered. Not everyone's personal ideas will get implemented, but most of what will get implemented will come from users. It's really all we can do.



Mac
 
Re: Only 29 Forums?!?

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun said:
Part of that was getting away from the buggy and not very well supported FUD software. That change caused major upsets in the way everything gets done, and the tools to migrate FUD data from 4 different cross pollinated member databases didn't work. The result is we are pretty much in the same situation as when we started with FUD in 2004, having to archive old data, and learn a new way of interacting with the site.
Click to expand...



The beef, at least with me is the way they communicated the change. People that are well funded that weren't considering getting into the pro audio media space now see this as an opportunity. The issue with FUD is you need someone that can code in house. That was known when it was originally implemented. They were warned four years ago what would happen and given a comprehensive report on what to do. Part of what happened in the previous transition is the person that that wrote the RFQ and proposal for the contractors did exactly the opposite of what was recommended though I think it was a mistake based on misinterpretation.



Forums aren't about tools or software. That's rule one. I ran the LAB on a funky old perl script for many years. What I don't think EH understood, or even understands now is that it's about the way they interact with the community. Which has been very poor. Had they listened to you guys in the first place this won't be an issue. They came in and in not so many words told the users to fuck off, they were doing it their way, regardless. That alone shows a huge disconnect in how to deal with an interactive community. They deal in a publishing realm, not a social media realm and the lack of experience and understanding shows. Another example is taking the site off line every night for a couple of hours west coast touring guys are just getting done or in the morning when the UK and Europe are starting the day.



They'll still maintain a critical mass though I think most of the higher level posts will migrate elsewhere or some of those folks will stop posting together. What needed to happen is whom ever really runs the biz dev side of the property (is it still Jeff?) needed to or needs to come out, apologized, accept responsibility for the poor decision and explain what the long term vision and goals are for the community. They're relying on the mods cred with the community to patch it over. They aren't controlling the conversation, they're reacting to it.



This isn't about software. It's about trust and respect.



Good to see you here my friend.



Dave

 
Re: Old and New Forums

Dave Stevens wrote on Sun said:
The beef, at least with me is the way they communicated the change. People that are well funded that weren't considering getting into the pro audio media space now see this as an opportunity. The issue with FUD is you need someone that can code in house. That was known when it was originally implemented. They were warned four years ago what would happen and given a comprehensive report on what to do. Part of what happened in the previous transition is the person that that wrote the RFQ and proposal for the contractors did exactly the opposite of what was recommended though I think it was a mistake based on misinterpretation.



Forums aren't about tools or software. That's rule one. I ran the LAB on a funky old perl script for many years. What I don't think EH understood, or even understands now is that it's about the way they interact with the community. Which has been very poor. Had they listened to you guys in the first place this won't be an issue. They came in and in not so many words told the users to fuck off, they were doing it their way, regardless. That alone shows a huge disconnect in how to deal with an interactive community. They deal in a publishing realm, not a social media realm and the lack of experience and understanding shows. Another example is taking the site off line every night for a couple of hours west coast touring guys are just getting done or in the morning when the UK and Europe are starting the day.



They'll still maintain a critical mass though I think most of the higher level posts will migrate elsewhere or some of those folks will stop posting together. What needed to happen is whom ever really runs the biz dev side of the property (is it still Jeff?) needed to or needs to come out, apologized, accept responsibility for the poor decision and explain what the long term vision and goals are for the community. They're relying on the mods cred with the community to patch it over. They aren't controlling the conversation, they're reacting to it.



This isn't about software. It's about trust and respect.



Good to see you here my friend.



Dave
Click to expand...



There is no argument that neither the announcement nor the transition was well handled. Part of that is as you say due to the lack of understanding about what PSW is. You are correct that there is a difference they are only beginning to get between publishing and social media. It is also true that there was no user input into the decisions that were made about where the site was going to go. Was there user input when we moved to FUD? I was there and I don't remember being asked for my views on the move. I don't really know where the users were told to fuck off. As with the move to FUD, the move to SMF means having to only have an archive of the forum history. The only time when there was not going to be an archive was before the first conference call where Doug and I and Tom Young, and I think Dave Dermont, along with Brad Blackwood from R/E/P were first told about the plan. At that time every single one of us told them that the value of the forums was in the historical data and the people who created it, and that to abandon that was to abandon the forums altogether. We were assured at that time that the worst case scenario would be an archive, and that they would try to port the old data into the new software. When it became obvious that that was not going to happen they suggested moving individual topics of great interest manually into the new software. The idea of the archive did not go away as far as any of us know.



AFAIK the FUD site has been taken down every night since it was first implemented. This has certainly been true as long as I have been a moderator. There was going to be an issue somewhere in the world no matter what time it was. A big part of this change was to get rid of that behavior. The new site is online 24/7.



I'm sure some valuable members will move on. Some valuable members already moved on over the past 5 years. Some valuable members moved on with the move to FUD. New members will join. They're doing that now, as they always have. Old members are always welcome.



See ya on the Interwebs



Mac



ps. I'll be in Vegas 2/3-2/12, I'll call ya.
 
Re: 29 Forums?!?

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Sun said:
You know what I find interesting?



On PSW if you promote another forum your post got deleted.



Here, it's allowed.



That is all.
Click to expand...



If you equate me correcting a few misconceptions and misunderstandings as trying to get the users of this forum to stop posting and find somewhere else to go, then maybe you have a point. I don't make that connection.



Mac

 
Re: Old and New Forums

Mac Kerr wrote on Sun said:
AFAIK the FUD site has been taken down every night since it was first implemented.
Click to expand...



Nope. That started happening when EH moved it to Rackspace and there were issues with row locking on the database. That happened because it was a standard Rackspace maintenance window. The forums transitioned to FUD well before EH bought the site. One of the reasons for going to FUD at the time was because we could modify the code in house. Simple Machine Forum did not exist. This sort of software is constantly evolving. Forum hosts can't sit on their ass for four years than wonder what happened. For large scale, high volume forums there needs to to be either consultants or people on staff that under stand http servers, database architecture and scaling and whatever the presentation layer is written in.



I'm sure people will sign up for the forums. The question is who are these people and at what level do the work. Your level? My level? There aren't that many full time working audio pros compared to those doing it on the side. We realized that almost 10 years ago.

 
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