A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

I was thinking about saying this in the Marc Lopez thread, but it probably will come off more as a rant and I doubt there's anything Marc can do about it anyway.

For me, it a frustrating procedure that Yamaha follows when choosing features for their consoles. We see this in the new consoles, but it's something they've been doing since the beginning of their release of digital consoles.

Every time a new console comes out, whether it be a more expensive/feature-rich console or a cheaper/feature-limited console, they add a new feature, but they also eliminate something great from the previous line.

The most recent example is the CL/QL line.
The CL is the more expensive console, with more faders, knobs, channels and IO.
But, the QL has the Dugan built in and I just noticed that it also has 2 inserts per channel where the CL has only 1.
Why can't the flagship consoles have everything the cheaper consoles have PLUS more? You end up having to choose between features instead of cost and IO. It's annoying.

But they've done this since the start.

The DM2000 had some great features that inexplicably were not carried over to the PM5D. I wrote about that in another thread, but things like custom layers, fader grouping, patch selection via encoder and automation were a few things that were on the DM2000 but not included on the PM5D.

The LS9 came out after the M7CL, and even though it was a cheaper, entry-level console, it had some better features like custom layers, direct recording to USB, Auto MDI-X, etc. So again, you can't have it all no matter what.

The CL looked like it might have it all, but in fact not. You can't assign pre/post eq auxes on a per channel basis as you can with the PM5D, You can't change the graphics to parametrics, it has no Dugan internally, it has one insert per channel instead of two, and so on.

It's seems it's never possible to have it all with Yamaha, you always have to give up something to get something else.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

Go ahead and ask Marc where he will surely see it. It seems like a fair question.

I suspect there is a cost associated with keeping all the low end features and adding the high end ones too, or it seemed inappropriate for the target market. He may be able to explain the thought process behind the decisions.

JR
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

I was thinking about saying this in the Marc Lopez thread, but it probably will come off more as a rant and I doubt there's anything Marc can do about it anyway.

For me, it a frustrating procedure that Yamaha follows when choosing features for their consoles. We see this in the new consoles, but it's something they've been doing since the beginning of their release of digital consoles.

Every time a new console comes out, whether it be a more expensive/feature-rich console or a cheaper/feature-limited console, they add a new feature, but they also eliminate something great from the previous line.

The most recent example is the CL/QL line.
The CL is the more expensive console, with more faders, knobs, channels and IO.
But, the QL has the Dugan built in and I just noticed that it also has 2 inserts per channel where the CL has only 1.
Why can't the flagship consoles have everything the cheaper consoles have PLUS more? You end up having to choose between features instead of cost and IO. It's annoying.

But they've done this since the start.

The DM2000 had some great features that inexplicably were not carried over to the PM5D. I wrote about that in another thread, but things like custom layers, fader grouping, patch selection via encoder and automation were a few things that were on the DM2000 but not included on the PM5D.

The LS9 came out after the M7CL, and even though it was a cheaper, entry-level console, it had some better features like custom layers, direct recording to USB, Auto MDI-X, etc. So again, you can't have it all no matter what.

The CL looked like it might have it all, but in fact not. You can't assign pre/post eq auxes on a per channel basis as you can with the PM5D, You can't change the graphics to parametrics, it has no Dugan internally, it has one insert per channel instead of two, and so on.

It's seems it's never possible to have it all with Yamaha, you always have to give up something to get something else.

In some cases (especially the CL/QL lineup), this is probably an artifact of the design process. Yamaha, like many other companies, seems to release a flagship product, and then follow it up with a lower cost version based on the same architecture. This means that the hard development work is done for (and paid for by) the flagship product, but it also means that any lessons learned through the design process are applied to the lower cost variant but not to the released flagship unit. This appears to be the case here, although it seems that the CL and QL lines are similar enough internally that the feature sets can be made to match by porting over the firmware from the newer console.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

But when they change lines entirely, they should at least have the good features of the previous line included on the newer line.
eg. DM line to PM line. PM line to M line, etc.
I would expect that some of this comes from the fact that both lines are available at the same time so they don't want to cannibalize sales of the previous line with the new line, but when the new line is more expensive than the previous, that shouldn't matter.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

Personally, I think that yamaha are going to really struggle in the next few years.

In the beginning, Yamaha pioneered digital live mixing. When they developed the 1D, they aimed high, and could really dictate the featureset to users.
Even with the 5D, the same was pretty much still true. They had the market cornered, and could dictate the functionality.

Fast forward to now, and at the higher end of the market, we (as engineers) are looking for tools that don't dictate workflow. I wan't to operate my show the way I want to. The reason Digico are killing it in this market space is that they deliberately built the most flexible platform they could, and then went about actively updating software with features requested by users.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

Personally, I think that yamaha are going to really struggle in the next few years.

In the beginning, Yamaha pioneered digital live mixing. When they developed the 1D, they aimed high, and could really dictate the featureset to users.
Even with the 5D, the same was pretty much still true. They had the market cornered, and could dictate the functionality.

Fast forward to now, and at the higher end of the market, we (as engineers) are looking for tools that don't dictate workflow. I wan't to operate my show the way I want to. The reason Digico are killing it in this market space is that they deliberately built the most flexible platform they could, and then went about actively updating software with features requested by users.


Maybe for "power users" that have the time and inclination to set up things to their liking, Yamaha may lose some market share. But don't forget the tons of day to day uses like hotel A/V, broadcast, clubs and performing arts centers, and rental houses, yamaha should still continue to dominate especially because the consoles are more or less ready out of the box, incredibly reliable, and reasonably consistent in their operations across platforms. The new Dugan functionality will be a big plus too.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

Maybe for "power users" that have the time and inclination to set up things to their liking, Yamaha may lose some market share.

Absolutely, Its already happening/happened. PM5Ds are still about, but getting rarer by the day. CL5s are unlikely to make it to many riders, for a number of reasons.

But don't forget the tons of day to day uses like hotel A/V, broadcast, clubs and performing arts centers, and rental houses, yamaha should still continue to dominate especially because the consoles are more or less ready out of the box...

Absolutely true, and thats where the money is in the live market. However, I bet you they sell a fraction as many QLs as LS9s. This is because the LS9 became the corporate mainstay primarily because of its price:performance ratio. Brand value helped too, but things like the Presonus and X32 products are clawing some of that back.

incredibly reliable...

Lets hope the QL is more reliable than the CL was in the beginning! They lost a lot of their reliability cred with that.

and reasonably consistent in their operations across platforms. The new Dugan functionality will be a big plus too.

This is certainly more true than ever with the CL/QL. I hope the QL does well. I think its a great product.
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

On very fundamental level: Why does an illuminated fader-top button mean "On" with some Yamaha consoles and "Mute" with others? Imagine if the accelerator and brake pedal positions in an car were flipped depending on model!

I understand they are labeled differently but, if there is some advantage to the scheme, then why not use red/green instead of red/amber?
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

On very fundamental level: Why does an illuminated fader-top button mean "On" with some Yamaha consoles and "Mute" with others? Imagine if the accelerator and brake pedal positions in an car were flipped depending on model!

I understand they are labeled differently but, if there is some advantage to the scheme, then why not use red/green instead of red/amber?

i wasn't aware of any Yamaha desk that used the 'light lit means Mute' scheme instead of 'light lit means channel ON' scheme. Which desks use the 'Mute' scheme?
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

No. What you are referring to is the DCA mute function. Which is the only time that the light on means muted. Every other time it means on. You will also notice that the scribble strips get brighter when they are turned on and dim when they are turned off.

But, when you use the custom fader pages for the normally DCA faders, you end up with inputs where the button says 'mute', but is actually an ON/OFF. Light on means mute when a DCA is on the fader, but ON when a channel is...

Anyway, I don't expect them to retrofit 5Ds. Its just a fun quirk at this point :)
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

I haven't used one recently, but on the M7 if the square white button directly above the fader is illuminated it means channel ON. With the 1D and 5D, if the button above the fader is illuminated it means channel OFF.

Or am I hallucinating (again)? Must be all those colored lights...
 
Re: A frustrating thing about new consoles from Yamaha

I haven't used one recently, but on the M7 if the square white button directly above the fader is illuminated it means channel ON. With the 1D and 5D, if the button above the fader is illuminated it means channel OFF.
Mmmm....no. The Yamaha uses the light on to signal a function that is engaged or active. 5D and 1D also: light on=channel on. (with the exception of the DCA master faders (which really also indicates a function that is engaged, as muting channels via DCA is a positive action)).