Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Feb 23, 2011
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Hello everyone.
I'm a small time "promoter" (though it seems like that's kind of a pejorative term around these parts!) that specializes in "underground" parties featuring BASS HEAVY requirements.
In the past, I had basically 4 EAW SB284c Subs for my "wall of bass", (2 on each side) topped off with 2 Peavey FH1s for "mids" and 4 Peavey SP3s as "tops".
Move ahead a few years, and I got rid of one pair of the SB284cs because they were super heavy and very "unwieldy", albeit incredibly rugged cabs that never once gave me a single "issue" other than hurting my back.
Now, I have a new "budget" ($2500 ish) and I'd like to kind of "get the sound back together" for a show.
I was CONSIDERING building some Lab Subs, but I've never undertaken a task anywhere NEAR as daunting, BUT!!!! I've found a local group of "cabinet builders" (real kitchen cabinet builders, not sub woofer cabinet builders) who have agreed to help me do what I wanna do.
Now to the meat of the question.
I WAS!!!! still planning on using the SP3s as my tops, only because they have served me OKAY for years, and I don't have a massive budget to redo everything.
What are your thoughts on how to go forward?
Right now, I have no subs, (the SB284cs are sitting in a bar I run sound at on the weekends, and I sure as hell never wanna move those puppies again), some JBL 4520 "mids", and those 4 SP3s as my tops.
Would building 4 lab subs (2 each side) and "acquiring" a pair of dual 18s to be on top of those be recommended?
My application is dance music of all kinds, low bass being PREFERABLE, but clean bass too.
Sorry if my question sounds scattered, it's just so much I wanna ask all at once but not "overwhelm".
Cheers.
-Eric
P.S. I read something about Art Weller's dual 12 front firing Lab Subs, are those "loud" enough for dance music shows of 200 + people, or should I keep with the original labs?
 
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Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Hello everyone.
I'm a small time "promoter" (though it seems like that's kind of a pejorative term around these parts!) that specializes in "underground" parties featuring BASS HEAVY requirements.
In the past, I had basically 4 EAW SB284c Subs for my "wall of bass", (2 on each side) topped off with 2 Peavey FH1s for "mids" and 4 Peavey SP3s as "tops".
Move ahead a few years, and I got rid of one pair of the SB284cs because they were super heavy and very "unwieldy", albeit incredibly rugged cabs that never once gave me a single "issue" other than hurting my back.
Now, I have a new "budget" ($2500 ish) and I'd like to kind of "get the sound back together" for a show.
I was CONSIDERING building some Lab Subs, but I've never undertaken a task anywhere NEAR as daunting, BUT!!!! I've found a local group of "cabinet builders" (real kitchen cabinet builders, not sub woofer cabinet builders) who have agreed to help me do what I wanna do.
Now to the meat of the question.
I WAS!!!! still planning on using the SP3s as my tops, only because they have served me OKAY for years, and I don't have a massive budget to redo everything.
What are your thoughts on how to go forward?
Right now, I have no subs, (the SB284cs are sitting in a bar I run sound at on the weekends, and I sure as hell never wanna move those puppies again), some JBL 4520 "mids", and those 4 SP3s as my tops.
Would building 4 lab subs (2 each side) and "acquiring" a pair of dual 18s to be on top of those be recommended?
My application is dance music of all kinds, low bass being PREFERABLE, but clean bass too.
Sorry if my question sounds scattered, it's just so much I wanna ask all at once but not "overwhelm".
Cheers.
-Eric
P.S. I read something about Art Weller's dual 12 front firing Lab Subs, are those "loud" enough for dance music shows of 200 + people, or should I keep with the original labs?
You are talking about kinda very different cabinets.

The lab subs are larger and probably heavier, than your EAWs and a good bit louder. The actual response is hard to tell without seeing measured data-simple numbers often give WRONG answers-even from the largest manufacturers. That is why measured-unprocessed data is important.

When you are asking if Arts dual 12s "loud enough", how many are you talking about and how loud is loud?

The front loaded cabinets are not as loud and have higher distortion. But some people associate the distortion with the "proper" sound.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each different type of sub.

It is NOT the number of people, but rather the actual size of the area to be covered and whether it is indoors or out. Outside takes a minimum of twice the amount of sub cabinets-with 4 times being a better idea to get the same "feeling" as inside or kinda close. But that can vary.
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

If this is just for one show, you're probably better off just renting what you need.

Now, the SB284c appears to be a pretty typical dual 18 sub in terms of size, weight, and presumably performance. It's an install box, so lacks proper handles (unless some have been added after they left the factory). But you aren't going to get any significant size savings by building something new, and you may not get any weight savings either. If your current boxes are too big and heavy, that leaves you with the option of building a pile of smaller boxes to be used in multiples.

Generally, the tradeoffs you can make when designing and building a subwoofer are size, efficiency, and low frequency extension. Efficiency translates directly into how much amplifier power and how many boxes you need. The LAB sub makes a different set of tradeoffs from Art's design, and one may be more suitable for your application than the other, depending on what your exact needs are.

What are you planning on powering these new subs with?
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Another pertinent question would be: Program material or live?

Whatever you do, I'd recommend omitting what you're calling "mids" and just finding a decent sub to go up to 90-110Hz to support your SP3's. Either front load your subs or use folded/tapped horns - don't do both!

Something like this could do nicely: https://soundforums.net/threads/11199-No-compromises-front-loaded-double-18”-cab/page6

Dave
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

1)Would building 4 lab subs (2 each side) and "acquiring" a pair of dual 18s to be on top of those be recommended?
My application is dance music of all kinds, low bass being PREFERABLE, but clean bass too.
Sorry if my question sounds scattered, it's just so much I wanna ask all at once but not "overwhelm".
Cheers.
-Eric
2)P.S. I read something about Art Welter's dual 12 front firing Lab Subs, are those "loud" enough for dance music shows of 200 + people, or should I keep with the original labs?
1) No, as others stated, go with one type of sub. The LabSub or my Welter Systems 2x12 bass reflex both sound decent up to >100 Hz as long as kept within Xmax. The front loaded design has a bit less distortion than the horn loaded design for a given excursion level, but is not as loud (per driver/watt) for a given excursion level.

2) You can fit almost four WS2x12" in the space of one LabSub, and four would have a good deal more output- four WS2x12" equal the output of eight Meyers 650P dual 18" at 40 Hz.
That said, my single 18" Keystone Sub design probably has a bit more output than a LabSub and is just over half the size (and about 4 times easier to build), there have been advances in drivers in the last dozen years that mean you don't have to lug as big of a "wall of bass" as we once did. Of course, the louder the cabinets have become, the more is expected...

Art
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Let's just go easy and go back to square one.
What if I scrapped everything, and decided to start from scratch?
All of the shows I do sound for now a days are dance party type shows, not rock n roll on this system, so we'd need tight bass, I'd prefer a "modular" system that could be good for a street party or toned down enough for a house party/club party.
Usually the places we use are warehouse spaces, and about 2500 sq feet of coverage is all that I'd like to be "responsible for".
I'd like to have some real subs, (crossed at say LC >25 HZ, HP >100 HZ,) some kick bins, (crossed at say LC >100 HZ HP >120-150 HZ?) then some Mid Tops, (150 HZ +).
Power wise, what I have now to push them is old school behringer EP stuff, (not Inuke) and I've been very "pleased" with their "value".
(have run them hot for years, only had "minimal" issues)
If you were me, how would you go?

I realized everyone said if you're going to do horns, stick with front loaded or horns, but don't combine.
What would give me the low lows, (35 - 40 hz) and decent highs that aren't ear splitting?
Thoughts were originally doing 2 labs on each side, then 2 bass bins above them, (USB or something like that?) then Mid tops. (MT121/MT122s)

I'm reading that Keystone Subs might be loud, could I get away with putting 12" or 15" Lab Subs in them instead of the 18" s and still expect this result: "my single 18" Keystone Sub design probably has a bit more output than a LabSub and is just over half the size"

I ask because when I looked at the keystone "plans", it seemed like something I could do even with my "minimal" skills, way easier than the lab sub construction.
Anyways, sorry if I sound scattered, I'm trying to figure out what to do, and scrapping everything and starting all over is looking more and more "attractive"...
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD


Now that I've read the thread more, I'm leaning towards 4 Keystones (2 each side, preferably with lab drivers) or 8 WS 2x12, (4 each side) then some sort of "kick" above them, then Mid tops (say the MT122s).
Any advice on this "approach"?
Should I just keep the SP3s as tops, (they have served me well for years!) keep using the FH1s, then get some real folded horn Subs for the lows?
(since the FH1 are folded)
GRRR...
So hard to choose!
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Probably no reason to spend 2500$ on subs alone for 200+people, 2 keystones loaded with 18sw115 or tbw100 will be more than enough(if you still lack bass yiu can build his waveguides for another 3 db), if you are unhappy with your tops you could go the bfm otop12 route, with todays bass expectations I think they could pair well with the pair of keystones and you could probably build two otop12, 2 keystone and buy amps for everything for around 2500$

4 keystone or 8 ws12 would probably not fit your budget(amps included) if you want to upgrade tops as well, and for 200 people it's way overkill anyway(this is more of a question how big the venue is rather than amount of people otoh)
 
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Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

I'd like to have some real subs, (crossed at say LC >25 HZ, HP >100 HZ,) some kick bins, (crossed at say LC >100 HZ HP >120-150 HZ?) then some Mid Tops, (150 HZ +).

What type of DSP are you planning on running? In my mind (which can be a scary place...), you're more likely to get a pile of mud with the above configuration than punch. I just don't see the benefit of running one quarter or one half of an octave through your "kick bins".

If you don't like your SP3's below 150Hz, I'd recommend sticking with a front-loaded subwoofer to cover the 35Hz-150Hz range. True, you'll need more cabs to get the real low stuff, but it'd be a lot easier to align than your proposed setup. Something like the Clair ML18 or a B&C S18AN might do the trick and would be modular, so you could bring as few or as many as the gig warranted.

Dave
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

if you are unhappy with your tops you could go the bfm otop12 route

That should read: if you are unhappy with your tops and want to be even less happy you could go the bfm otop12 route.

Pretty much every decent MI level box on the market sounds WAY better these days. I can't believe Bill is still pushing that stuff.
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

That should read: if you are unhappy with your tops and want to be even less happy you could go the bfm otop12 route.

Pretty much every decent MI level box on the market sounds WAY better these days. I can't believe Bill is still pushing that stuff.

We ever gonna get that like button back?
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Let's just go easy and go back to square one.
What if I scrapped everything, and decided to start from scratch?
All of the shows I do sound for now a days are dance party type shows, not rock n roll on this system, so we'd need tight bass, I'd prefer a "modular" system that could be good for a street party or toned down enough for a house party/club party.
Usually the places we use are warehouse spaces, and about 2500 sq feet of coverage is all that I'd like to be "responsible for".
I'd like to have some real subs, (crossed at say LC >25 HZ, HP >100 HZ,) some kick bins, (crossed at say LC >100 HZ HP >120-150 HZ?) then some Mid Tops, (150 HZ +).
Power wise, what I have now to push them is old school behringer EP stuff, (not Inuke) and I've been very "pleased" with their "value".
(have run them hot for years, only had "minimal" issues)
If you were me, how would you go?

How much amplifier power do you have available for the subs? And what are you trying to gain with your "kick bins"?

There are a few top boxes that benefit from an additional low frequency element, but the SP3s aren't one of them. And the alignment gets much messier (and more challenging) the more types of boxes you have cobbled together.
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

How much amplifier power do you have available for the subs? And what are you trying to gain with your "kick bins"?

There are a few top boxes that benefit from an additional low frequency element, but the SP3s aren't one of them. And the alignment gets much messier (and more challenging) the more types of boxes you have cobbled together.

So, I have 2 behringer EP4000s devoted to the subs.
I was hoping with the "kick bins" to get a little "rounded" mid low, but I think I see what you're saying, the only reason I ever though we needed "mid lows" with the SP3s was because we were sold FH1 Clones with them, and "suggested" to use them as mid cabs with our Front Firing Dual 18s.
Looking back on it, the guy who sold them to us as a package definitely had more "motivation" to get rid of all of them at once, and though I'm not saying he was "shady", I'm not saying I trust his "advice" considering we were "uninformed customers", if ya know what I mean?

I cobbled together the sound system we have now many many years ago when I was young, dumb, and into throwing shows, thinking: "Well, more speakers and volume is good, right?"
Now that I'm older, some of the "bad habits" haven't fallen off, even if I feel like I know what good sound "sounds" like now.

Does that make sense?
If you think we could "get by" with just subs and tops, (no separate kick bins for the 100 - SOMETHING HERE before 300 HZ), than I'll take your word.
Lots of why I figured we needed something in between had more to do with my "perception" on what I've seen/heard used out than actual: "I read in a manual that...", does that make sense?

(To put it another way, I've always figured Mid Cabs/kick bins/whatever were required, since I've always just "seen" them!)

So far, I feel I have already learned more in the brief moments chatting here, than I have over the years "successfully" (that being a relative term!) running shows for people with low expectations, and even lower grade equipment...
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

In general, when you need kick bins is if you have some real dedicated subs which needs to be crossed around 70-80(x1 cab, scoops for example) up to around 150-160. Turbo bph-238 is obviously popular!

What does MI mean?

merely suggested the otop12 becouse it's a straightforward build which is supposedly loud, and wouldn't break the bank. I've never heard them but I have heard the dr280 which I think sounds awesome.

I'm into edm and I generally like the idea of excluding kicks, using a sub design capable of 30/35-100 Hz then a strong top with sufficient kick in it.

If you already have the berry 4000's you could bridge them to a keystone 18sw115 loaded each.
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Assuming I went the Keystone sub route, could I reliably eliminate kick bins, if so, back to the question I had earlier, what would appropriate tops/mid-tops be recommended?
I've read the BFM suggestions, obviously some didn't agree with those, but if ya don't agree, what would you recommend?
Cheers
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Assuming I went the Keystone sub route, could I reliably eliminate kick bins, if so, back to the question I had earlier, what would appropriate tops/mid-tops be recommended?
I've read the BFM suggestions, obviously some didn't agree with those, but if ya don't agree, what would you recommend?
Cheers

You don't need kick bins with Keystones.

My experience with BFM is that anything would be better, keep the SP3s until you can budget for something better.
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

If you think we could "get by" with just subs and tops, (no separate kick bins for the 100 - SOMETHING HERE before 300 HZ), than I'll take your word.

It isn't a matter of "getting by" - it's a matter of "cleaning up". Get rid of your FH1's. They aren't helping you.

(To put it another way, I've always figured Mid Cabs/kick bins/whatever were required, since I've always just "seen" them!)

And I have not. Rhetorical question for you: How many 5-way Concert rigs have you seen?

Please take my comments as constructive criticism, as they're intended.

IMHO, if you want to "push more air" in the situations you've described, get more front-loaded subs. I haven't heard Art's 2x12 cabs, but the concept is appealing. Looks like the Eminence LAB12 can easily run to about 180Hz and could go higher, with a little EQ'ing. Maybe the Keystone subs would perform equally well - perhaps Art can speak to that.

Again, keep your SP3's, as long as they've served you well. After all, they are "an homage" to a well established 3-way design. If running passively, your existing crossover points are at 650Hz & 2.1kHz. Try actively crossing over between the 15" and the mid/high section. Might add the punch and clarity you're seeking.

I think if you'd do this (3-way active system via quality DSP, with the mid-to-high passive), you could keep your subs down where they belong (<120Hz).

Dave
 
Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Looks like the Eminence LAB12 can easily run to about 180Hz and could go higher, with a little EQ'ing. Maybe the Keystone subs would perform equally well - perhaps Art can speak to that.

I think if you'd do this (3-way active system via quality DSP, with the mid-to-high passive), you could keep your subs down where they belong (<120Hz).

Dave
Both the WS 2xLab12" and the Keystone can make it to 180 Hz, the Keystone has way more output in the 60-160 Hz range, and because the BC18SW115 has far less thermal compression, one Keystone will have about the same LF output as two of the 2x12".
 

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Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

Dave Pluke said:
And I have not. Rhetorical question for you: How many 5-way Concert rigs have you seen?

Please take my comments as constructive criticism, as they're intended.

IMHO, if you want to "push more air" in the situations you've described, get more front-loaded subs. I haven't heard Art's 2x12 cabs, but the concept is appealing. Looks like the Eminence LAB12 can easily run to about 180Hz and could go higher, with a little EQ'ing. Maybe the Keystone subs would perform equally well - perhaps Art can speak to that.

Again, keep your SP3's, as long as they've served you well. After all, they are "an homage" to a well established 3-way design. If running passively, your existing crossover points are at 650Hz & 2.1kHz. Try actively crossing over between the 15" and the mid/high section. Might add the punch and clarity you're seeking.

I think if you'd do this (3-way active system via quality DSP, with the mid-to-high passive), you could keep your subs down where they belong (<120Hz).

Dave

So hard to decide!!
Front loaded subs have served us well for many years, but Tapped Horn style just seems like what we've been "missing".
GRRR...
What to do...
I've officially "ditched" the FH1 Cabs, sold them to someone on craigslist, and you were so right, removing those and running the "remains" of the system we have now gave us incredibly nicer lows in the tops, sort of "rounded" them more, a big complaint was always: "tops sound really sharp, mids sound distorted!"...
Never thought it was because of those cabs, just figured they were necessary, because more is good, right?
LoL.
(kind of "inherited" them with the SP3s because the guy used them for lows for the sp3s, another long story)
Anyways, I know ya said for more air go with the Front Loaded Subs, but now that I've had a chance to start over from scratch, (on the bottom end, at least!) Art has sold me on his keystones...

Oh, BTW, when asking about the "5 way" street system, what I've seen when I was OUT OF TOWN, (never seen one locally!) are these crazy bastards with 4 lab subs on the bottom, invader subs on top of the lab subs, then some sort of "dual 15 mid horn" (dual 15 folded horn looking thing) and then regular looking tops, (mt122s?).
If I can get the pics off my old camera, I'll throw them up later.
That was my "standard" because that system had more power and volume and bass you could "feel" than any other "DIY" system I've seen.
(I've seen plenty of Turbosound/PK/EAW/JBL Line Arrays/etc.)
My style is way more "DIY" and less "commercial", and I always admired the feel of those systems, so when I decided to "overhaul" our old reliable, (we had 4 dual 18 cabs, 2 SB284Cs went into a permanent install at a bar I moonlight in, 2 other "generic" dual 18 RCF Driver
Loaded Cabs "walked off" the back of our pickup truck when it was in the shop!!! :cry:) I went back to the drawing board, with the "vision" in mind of recreating that killer system.
However, my back cringed at some of the thoughts, and my mind wandered onto some of these boards, reading what I could, and just thinking all along, well, we need 8 labs, 4 invaders, 2 usbs, 4 mt122s, lol.

Both the WS 2xLab12" and the Keystone can make it to 180 Hz, the Keystone has way more output in the 60-160 Hz range, and because the BC18SW115 has far less thermal compression, one Keystone will have about the same LF output as two of the 2x12".

Okay, so I found a guy in our crew whose dad is a cabinet maker by trade, (has access to tons of big CNC machines, and a whole "shop" for us to EXPLOIT!) :twisted:
I gave him the Keystone Plans, and I'm hoping he's able to digest them, and come back with a REASONABLE quote to fabricate them.
If he comes back with a hugely ridiculous one, is it something I could attempt to undertake without too much concern?
I'm not expecting you guys to know my woodworking skills, so let's just say they don't exist.
The last thing I ever built was a chicken coop that is entirely "functional" but isn't the prettiest.
Unlike the guy in our crew's dad, I don't have table saws, a workshop, or access to a CNC machine, but I do have a circular saw.
Would I be better off trying a "mock up" with cheap plywood from the local big box store just to get an idea down, before wasting my "skills" (or lack thereof!) on an expensive piece of BB?

The plan is to get Keystones one way or the other.
:razz:

Assuming we get keystones built, next question would be if we used the BC18SW115 Driver, and we built 2 subs, (going to start with 2, because we can always build more, right???!!!) would a Behringer EP4000 PER SUB be enough?
This is how we've run our EAW SB284Cs for years, (no longer part of our system) and it's given us great headroom and powerful bass.


Anyways, thanks for reading all of my rambling noob questions, and sorry for digressing there at the end, just didn't want anyone else to feel like I'd ignored their statements, I love constructive criticism, it's something I try to give myself.



Cheers.
 
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Re: Another "WHAT SHOULD I GET/BUILD" THREAD

I've officially "ditched" the FH1 Cabs, sold them to someone on craigslist, and you were so right, removing those and running the "remains" of the system we have now gave us incredibly nicer lows in the tops, sort of "rounded" them more, a big complaint was always: "tops sound really sharp, mids sound distorted!"...

Whew! You had me doubting myself there for awhile ;) .


Assuming we get keystones built, next question would be if we used the BC18SW115 Driver, and we built 2 subs, (going to start with 2, because we can always build more, right???!!!) would a Behringer EP4000 PER SUB be enough?

One EP4000, bridged into one 8 ohm BC18SW115 looks good on paper. Only way to know for sure is to give it a try.

Dave