Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

A big factor as to how good a digital console is, and I'm sure Bennett will agree, is how fast one can interact with a large quantity of variables. Related to this, is how quickly one can see the status of large quantity of variables. Choking a great DSP core with a cumbersome, or overly simplified, interface is a fail.
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

My crystal ball says that at some distant future date, this will be more typical, and not the outlier. The question is how to get from here to there.

I came up with a product definition using some similar concepts 15-20 years ago and I considered it too far ahead of the market then (especially the Peavey market).

This price disconnect is a difficult hurdle to overcome. I'm sure the product manager did not ignore the price point. The price for new technology is rarely set high arbitrarily, but forced high in an attempt to recapture NRE and more expensive components than simpler old school solutions.

I wish them success, but expect a rough road ahead. Somebody has to be first and gets all the arrows stuck in their butt.

JR
 
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Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

Guy Graham said:
Whilst some are quick to dismiss, I feel this represents a paradigm shift in the mix user interaction.

I have no need for one, nor am I likely to buy one, but it doesn't stop me recognising a new product that takes modern advances in digital, especially DSP-type stuff, and creates a first-mover entry to a market I'm quite sure others will follow.

Right now the pricepoint may be a prohibitive barrier to entry for most of the target market. However now we have a product that takes digital advances to the next logical level - others will come and be less fearful of abandoning the analogue hangovers inherent in standard digital consoles.

Once the many benefits in losing the analogue hangover are realised (and this will translate to both user interface and price) I can see a significant proportion of more pro types embracing this sort of concept.

I'm pretty sure when original digital consoles first came to market there were price issues many could not reconcile with their existing expectations.
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I agree that there is an opportunity for taking advantages in digital. Mackie did exactly that with their DL1608. Great use of the iPad, and it's at a reasonable price point.

While I applaud Line 6 for thinking outside the box, the only people who will want this device for its simplicity aren't going to pay $2499 for it. Therefore I question the "smarts" of the Line 6 team, as someone there should have put there foot down and said we're making a digital mixer for entry level, a digital mixer for pros, but instead they compromised and tried to reach everyone, which results in a product with a very small potential market. I call it a sofabed - it's a shitty sofa and a shittier bed when you compare it to the purpose-built real deal.
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

The real question is how do inexperienced entry level users feel about the product?

I don't much care for automatic transmissions in cars. The are heavy, more expensive, and less fuel efficient, but it expands the market for cars.

The digital technology is coming down in cost every day. I have no question we are still locked into an "old ways" mentality where lots of parameters that computers could manage faster and better, get clung to by experienced users who learned sound reinforcement using the old ways. One example is the recent arguments over mic pre amp gain control in digital consoles.

I don't miss having to set the choke to start my car on cold mornings. Mic preamp gain trims, seems a similar near-obsolete appendage. let the computer keep the gain above the noise floor and below clipping so you can worry about mixing.

Evolution usually wins out when revolution fails. Time will tell.

I can't tell you how many "experienced" sound men rejected my FLS LEDs on GEC for no other reason than it devalued their hard earned skill of being able to identify feedback frequencies by ear. That's modern life, tools get better and easier to use, get over it.

JR
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

John Roberts said:
The real question is how do inexperienced entry level users feel about the product?

I don't much care for automatic transmissions in cars. The are heavy, more expensive, and less fuel efficient, but it expands the market for cars.
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I think you're generally right on the money, except for the fact that technology has won even in the case of automatic transmissions. I've been car shopping for the last couple years, and one of the cars on my list was the BMW 335. As recently as about 7 years ago the manual tranny was the default, and automatic added $1000 or so to the car. Fuel mileage was better in the manual world too. Fast forward to 2012 and not only is the automatic transmission free and the default, but the auto transmission gets better mileage due to more gears and more intelligent shifting. In the case of the 335, the auto gets 3MPG better city and highway. Not only that, but the performance benefit is gone - 5.4 seconds 0-60 manual, 5.1 seconds auto. For normal drivers I'm sure the spread is far greater due to the skill required for performance shifting.

BMW 335i Sedan - Features & Specs - Specifications - BMW North America

Technology marches on - buckle up and/or get out of the way.
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

John Roberts said:
The real question is how do inexperienced entry level users feel about the product?

I don't much care for automatic transmissions in cars. The are heavy, more expensive, and less fuel efficient, but it expands the market for cars.

The digital technology is coming down in cost every day. I have no question we are still locked into an "old ways" mentality where lots of parameters that computers could manage faster and better, get clung to by experienced users who learned sound reinforcement using the old ways. One example is the recent arguments over mic pre amp gain control in digital consoles.

I don't miss having to set the choke to start my car on cold mornings. Mic preamp gain trims, seems a similar near-obsolete appendage. let the computer keep the gain above the noise floor and below clipping so you can worry about mixing.

Evolution usually wins out when revolution fails. Time will tell.

I can't tell you how many "experienced" sound men rejected my FLS LEDs on GEC for no other reason than it devalued their hard earned skill of being able to identify feedback frequencies by ear. That's modern life, tools get better and easier to use, get over it.

JR
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John - some good points but I'd point out that the price difference between an auto and a manual wasn't that significant; perhaps back in the 60's and 70's it was.

On the FLS LEDs, I'd say that that product had the right features at the right price point for a large majority of the intended users.

My issue remains when a design team and a marketing team don't lay out a clear strategy in advance, which means that price point and features must be considered and kept to in order to be successful, especially in the MI segment of this business. I love technology and won't look back from manual mixers having upgraded to an 01v; at some point I'll move to something newer as well. But when a product is designed with a price point so far off of their intended consumer target, I call fail.

As I stated earlier, I think inexperienced entry level users will show their feelings about the product by not buying it and instead buying the Mackie DL1608. I could be wrong (and Mackie's marketing on the mixer is just plain weird) but I think we'll see people voting with their wallets.
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

As I said, I felt this product strategy was ahead of the market over a decade ago, and it was even more expensive then.

I won't second guess Line 6's internal decision making, In my judgement the high price reflects their cost, not some arbitrary decision to charge a high price.

it wouldn't be the first time a company took a flyer on a novel technology. I wish them success but as i have said before it won't be easy.

JR
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

TJ Cornish said:
I think you're generally right on the money, except for the fact that technology has won even in the case of automatic transmissions. I've been car shopping for the last couple years, and one of the cars on my list was the BMW 335. As recently as about 7 years ago the manual tranny was the default, and automatic added $1000 or so to the car. Fuel mileage was better in the manual world too. Fast forward to 2012 and not only is the automatic transmission free and the default, but the auto transmission gets better mileage due to more gears and more intelligent shifting. In the case of the 335, the auto gets 3MPG better city and highway. Not only that, but the performance benefit is gone - 5.4 seconds 0-60 manual, 5.1 seconds auto. For normal drivers I'm sure the spread is far greater due to the skill required for performance shifting.

BMW 335i Sedan - Features & Specs - Specifications - BMW North America

Technology marches on - buckle up and/or get out of the way.
Click to expand...

BMW is a premium product and automatic transmissions are a mature technology.

I am personally the old luddite who likes the control of a manual transmission. I would probably lose a drag race to some young punk with an automatic. I even recall some successful MOPAR drag racers with the pushbutton automatics, several decades ago.

but.... the target market for Line 6 is not "the old sound guy".

JR

PS: speaking of cars I though it was remarkable when looking at the review for one modern go-fast scooter, that claimed something like 24 MPG... I recall getting single digit MPG from one old ride when i pushed the skinny pedal too hard.
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

John Roberts said:
PS: speaking of cars I though it was remarkable when looking at the review for one modern go-fast scooter, that claimed something like 24 MPG... I recall getting single digit MPG from one old ride when i pushed the skinny pedal too hard.
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It's another premium brand, but the Audi S4 with all wheel drive and automatic is rated at 28mpg while manual is 26mpg. That with a 0-60mph of 4.9sec. Even the automatic only RS5 with 450hp, 0-60 in 4.5sec and 174mph top speed is rated at 23mpg highway (with all wheel drive). My old '64 Ford Galaxy 500 with 390ci V8 got about 12mpg. Flooring it was like flushing a toilet.

Mac
 
Re: Anyone else embracing the Line6 M20D Mixer

John Roberts said:
BMW is a premium product and automatic transmissions are a mature technology.
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There are a lot of 6-speed autos trickling down into far less premium vehicles. At $4+ a gallon for gas and the sales ammunition of another couple MPG, I'm fairly confident you don't have to buy a particularly premium car to still be significantly ahead of a stick shift.
John Roberts said:
PS: speaking of cars I though it was remarkable when looking at the review for one modern go-fast scooter, that claimed something like 24 MPG... I recall getting single digit MPG from one old ride when i pushed the skinny pedal too hard.
Click to expand...
I failed in trying to find it, but I believe Top Gear did a performance comparison between a '60's Bond-era Aston Martin and a modern Honda Accord. I'm sure you can guess which one won.

Due to my need to carry small loads to places where my Express van doesn't easily fit, I have temporarily abandoned my Bimmer dreams, and re-upped with another Explorer. My last one, a 2002 with the V8, made 230HP and got 13MPG in my heavy traffic city driving, 20MPG 100% highway on long trips. My new one, the Sport with the Turbo V6 that comes in the F150, makes 360HP, is significantly faster, and is 16MPG to supposedly 22 highway, not that I've had a chance to drive on the highway much yet. This kind of technological progress I am happy to take.
 
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