Would moving from 4 eaw 650z with ux8800 to 6 apogee 3x3s2 be a good move? I know the 3x3 are older. Can you still get parts? Any thoughts would be great.
apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
- Thread starter Eric Baker
- Start date
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
It depends on what you want. The 3x3s will get louder, even 1-1, but they won't sound as good and parts are not easy to get if they are available at all. By now I doubt you'll find a fully working processor for Apogee speakers, so you will probably have to roll your own and live without the built in protection of the Apogee processor.
Mac
It depends on what you want. The 3x3s will get louder, even 1-1, but they won't sound as good and parts are not easy to get if they are available at all. By now I doubt you'll find a fully working processor for Apogee speakers, so you will probably have to roll your own and live without the built in protection of the Apogee processor.
Mac
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Sell the EAW's to me. Seriously though I agree with both Mac and Tim. The issues with the Apogee are the sliding frequency magic of the proprietary analog processor can not be duplicated by anything digital currently that I am aware of and the drivers are custom ferrofluid cooled jobs that few people can still do a recone on. I really liked the 3x3's back in the day but unless they are really cheap and you just wanted a louder rig (in which case I would still keep the 650z rig for smaller shows) you would most likely be better off with something more current or adding a few more 650's to your rig. Just my opinion.
Sell the EAW's to me. Seriously though I agree with both Mac and Tim. The issues with the Apogee are the sliding frequency magic of the proprietary analog processor can not be duplicated by anything digital currently that I am aware of and the drivers are custom ferrofluid cooled jobs that few people can still do a recone on. I really liked the 3x3's back in the day but unless they are really cheap and you just wanted a louder rig (in which case I would still keep the 650z rig for smaller shows) you would most likely be better off with something more current or adding a few more 650's to your rig. Just my opinion.
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Thanks guys. I thought everyone would tell me to stick with the 650's. I like the way they sound, but they seem to be weak in the low mid. That's why I was thinking of getting something that was just a little bit better.
Thanks guys. I thought everyone would tell me to stick with the 650's. I like the way they sound, but they seem to be weak in the low mid. That's why I was thinking of getting something that was just a little bit better.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Add kick bins if it matters that much.
What are you powering the 15s with?
Add kick bins if it matters that much.
What are you powering the 15s with?
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Silas the 15's are powered with two qsc 6.0pfc in stereo which is about 1400 watts per 15.
Silas the 15's are powered with two qsc 6.0pfc in stereo which is about 1400 watts per 15.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Yep, I don't think you're going to get much more out of them! Are you constantly hitting clip lights, or is it more of a general system EQ or limiter problem? I hear the 8800s have limiters that are difficult to get right - they often limit early.
Yep, I don't think you're going to get much more out of them! Are you constantly hitting clip lights, or is it more of a general system EQ or limiter problem? I hear the 8800s have limiters that are difficult to get right - they often limit early.
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
The limiters hit before the amp clips. I will play around with the limiter settings.
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
I assume you are using them with a sub (?) if so raise the sub / low mid crossover from 90 Hz to 120 Hz and see how you go.
I assume you are using them with a sub (?) if so raise the sub / low mid crossover from 90 Hz to 120 Hz and see how you go.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
There are other, possibly better ways to do this. If you have aligned your subs and tops with Smaart or some other FFT software, raising the crossover will necessitate a different alignment. Most subs sound terrible when crossed over that high. However, if you keep the sub crossover lower, but apply a boost around 100 or 120 to BOTH the subs and tops (to keep the phase identical, and not affect alignment), things have a tendency of staying pretty clean. The boost doesn't have to be much to be effective - 3dB goes a long way.
Of course this is highly dependent on where your subs are in relation to your tops, and what kind of alignment you shoot for. If the subs and tops are directly stacked, it will probably work fine. If the subs are in a center cluster and the tops are flown or stacked on the sides, good luck...the above ideas will probably just make things worse for most of the audience...
There are other, possibly better ways to do this. If you have aligned your subs and tops with Smaart or some other FFT software, raising the crossover will necessitate a different alignment. Most subs sound terrible when crossed over that high. However, if you keep the sub crossover lower, but apply a boost around 100 or 120 to BOTH the subs and tops (to keep the phase identical, and not affect alignment), things have a tendency of staying pretty clean. The boost doesn't have to be much to be effective - 3dB goes a long way.
Of course this is highly dependent on where your subs are in relation to your tops, and what kind of alignment you shoot for. If the subs and tops are directly stacked, it will probably work fine. If the subs are in a center cluster and the tops are flown or stacked on the sides, good luck...the above ideas will probably just make things worse for most of the audience...
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
I did this all the time when I needed maximum SPL out of my old 650’s. The difference in time alignment need between 90 Hz to 120 Hz LR crossover will be minimal.
In this situation most EAW subs will be OK up to 120 Hz.
I’m not sure I understand your EQ suggestion but …if you use PEQ to effectively raise the sub crossover frequency as you suggested you are doing the same thing as razing the crossover frequency. The amplitude response and phase response are directly related and you end up in the sameplace.
BTW with a 24db LR crossover – both the LP and HP phase responses match.
I do agree that if the subs are separated from the 650 by a large distance it will start to sound that way, and the higher the crossover frequency the more noticeable it will be … but it’s not difficult to try, and if Eric does not like it just change it back.
What is important is that you align the 650’s with the subs – using a UX8800 will not automatically give you an aligned system. The latency for a UX8800 is 3.13 ms on the subs but varies from about 5ms to 11 ms for the mid highs depending on which speaker you are using (eg 650,850,750 etc). i.e if you stack 650s on top of your subs (say SB850s) you will need to delay the subs - sorry cannot remember the UX latency for the 650z …??
I did this all the time when I needed maximum SPL out of my old 650’s. The difference in time alignment need between 90 Hz to 120 Hz LR crossover will be minimal.
In this situation most EAW subs will be OK up to 120 Hz.
I’m not sure I understand your EQ suggestion but …if you use PEQ to effectively raise the sub crossover frequency as you suggested you are doing the same thing as razing the crossover frequency. The amplitude response and phase response are directly related and you end up in the sameplace.
BTW with a 24db LR crossover – both the LP and HP phase responses match.
I do agree that if the subs are separated from the 650 by a large distance it will start to sound that way, and the higher the crossover frequency the more noticeable it will be … but it’s not difficult to try, and if Eric does not like it just change it back.
What is important is that you align the 650’s with the subs – using a UX8800 will not automatically give you an aligned system. The latency for a UX8800 is 3.13 ms on the subs but varies from about 5ms to 11 ms for the mid highs depending on which speaker you are using (eg 650,850,750 etc). i.e if you stack 650s on top of your subs (say SB850s) you will need to delay the subs - sorry cannot remember the UX latency for the 650z …??
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
I have the subs running up to 90hz now. I'm using Jbl sr4719x as subs. I stack two subs on their sides and then put the 650's up. I did delay the subs. I have not used any software to figure the delay though. I did the invert the subs and play with the delay. I ended up somewhere around 5ms I think. Would it make a huge improvement to have smart figure out the delay? I have been looking at getting smart or something along those lines. I have even thought about bringing one of the forum member in and do smart for me. Do to the limited knowledge of smart on my part.
I have the subs running up to 90hz now. I'm using Jbl sr4719x as subs. I stack two subs on their sides and then put the 650's up. I did delay the subs. I have not used any software to figure the delay though. I did the invert the subs and play with the delay. I ended up somewhere around 5ms I think. Would it make a huge improvement to have smart figure out the delay? I have been looking at getting smart or something along those lines. I have even thought about bringing one of the forum member in and do smart for me. Do to the limited knowledge of smart on my part.
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Hi Eric
JBL rate the sr4719x to 1.1KHz http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-X%20Series/SR4719X.pdf... so I don’t think you will have a problem if you cross over a little higher.
The delay … my guess is it will be between 2 to 5ms – put a tone in at that frequency and adjust the delay for maximum output (sub + 650) … or do the opposite; invert the polarity of the sub and adjust for maximum cancellation, and then flip the polarity back (many years ago JBL used the opposite polarity on their speakers to everyone else … not sure about the 2241’s in your box - you may need to check)
FWIW a while ago some of us started compiling a list of the appropriate delays for EAW speaker combinations with the UX8800, no 650z’s but from memory it was less than the SB528/650e listed below.
SB528(5ms) with KF650i/E
SB528 (4.5ms) with KF730
SB730 (3.75ms) with KF730
SB730 (2ms -6db) with 2 x JFX260i BiAmp
SB750 (7ms) with KF750 (using KF750x2-4 TRI Greybox)
SB750 (8ms) with KF750 (using KF750+KF755 TRI Greybox)
SB750 (4.5ms) with KF730
SB850 (4.5ms) with KF730
…anyway I don’t think with your setup you will have any problems if you raise the crossover to 120 or so. You will lose a little sub output but it will take a lot of strain of the 15’s in the KF650s.
Are you running the 650's 2-way or 3-way ? ... they will definitely go harder in 3-way mode.
Peter
Hi Eric
JBL rate the sr4719x to 1.1KHz http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-X%20Series/SR4719X.pdf... so I don’t think you will have a problem if you cross over a little higher.
The delay … my guess is it will be between 2 to 5ms – put a tone in at that frequency and adjust the delay for maximum output (sub + 650) … or do the opposite; invert the polarity of the sub and adjust for maximum cancellation, and then flip the polarity back (many years ago JBL used the opposite polarity on their speakers to everyone else … not sure about the 2241’s in your box - you may need to check)
FWIW a while ago some of us started compiling a list of the appropriate delays for EAW speaker combinations with the UX8800, no 650z’s but from memory it was less than the SB528/650e listed below.
SB528(5ms) with KF650i/E
SB528 (4.5ms) with KF730
SB730 (3.75ms) with KF730
SB730 (2ms -6db) with 2 x JFX260i BiAmp
SB750 (7ms) with KF750 (using KF750x2-4 TRI Greybox)
SB750 (8ms) with KF750 (using KF750+KF755 TRI Greybox)
SB750 (4.5ms) with KF730
SB850 (4.5ms) with KF730
…anyway I don’t think with your setup you will have any problems if you raise the crossover to 120 or so. You will lose a little sub output but it will take a lot of strain of the 15’s in the KF650s.
Are you running the 650's 2-way or 3-way ? ... they will definitely go harder in 3-way mode.
Peter
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Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Peter I'm running the system 3-way. JBL does not run opposite polarity in this box I have checked that already. I did have a older pair of cabs that where like that. I will try to running the sub up to 120 and check the delay again. So you don't feel that smart would make a big difference?
Peter I'm running the system 3-way. JBL does not run opposite polarity in this box I have checked that already. I did have a older pair of cabs that where like that. I will try to running the sub up to 120 and check the delay again. So you don't feel that smart would make a big difference?
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
Regarding the Apogee 3x3 -
Someone mentioned that they have sliding filters - they don't. Meyer had sliding filters, not Apogee. Regarding replacement parts, the mids (EV DH1) and the highs (Radian 1") are still available. I am not sure about the 15"s, but you can ask Bary at index. He's an Apogee expert and he usually has all the spare parts.
IMO the main drawback of the 3x3 is it's size and weight, it's big and heavy. Regarding the processor, it would be best to get the original Apoge processor. If you need to use another processor, I would advise to contact Bary, he could probably help you with settings for other processors.
Regarding the Apogee 3x3 -
Someone mentioned that they have sliding filters - they don't. Meyer had sliding filters, not Apogee. Regarding replacement parts, the mids (EV DH1) and the highs (Radian 1") are still available. I am not sure about the 15"s, but you can ask Bary at index. He's an Apogee expert and he usually has all the spare parts.
IMO the main drawback of the 3x3 is it's size and weight, it's big and heavy. Regarding the processor, it would be best to get the original Apoge processor. If you need to use another processor, I would advise to contact Bary, he could probably help you with settings for other processors.
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
I think you should be able to get it close enough as I suggested above to test the 120Hz crossover idea. The only problem with this method is you can easily end up being 360 or even 720 degrees out, but in this case the boxes are physically aligned and you know to expect a delay on the subs of between 2-5 ms.
If you picked 4 ms with this method and Smaart told you, it should have been 4.5 ms …but you could not hear the difference between 4 and 4.5 when you listened, neither will the audience :roll: ... so I think you should be OK.
You just need a signal generator (e.g iPhone app) at the cross over frequency of 120Hz or what ever you decide to try, set the subs and 650s so they are producing about the same level and adjust the delay for maximum output. (you can gain up the subs to suit you taste after you have set the delay)
With a 24dB LR crossover the phase/time alignment (of the crossover output) will not change with frequency, however the speakers in the 650s and the subs will however have slightly different low frequency phase responses. When you raise the crossover frequency there will be a small relative change, I think you will luck if you notice anything.
Good luck ...
I think you should be able to get it close enough as I suggested above to test the 120Hz crossover idea. The only problem with this method is you can easily end up being 360 or even 720 degrees out, but in this case the boxes are physically aligned and you know to expect a delay on the subs of between 2-5 ms.
If you picked 4 ms with this method and Smaart told you, it should have been 4.5 ms …but you could not hear the difference between 4 and 4.5 when you listened, neither will the audience :roll: ... so I think you should be OK.
You just need a signal generator (e.g iPhone app) at the cross over frequency of 120Hz or what ever you decide to try, set the subs and 650s so they are producing about the same level and adjust the delay for maximum output. (you can gain up the subs to suit you taste after you have set the delay)
With a 24dB LR crossover the phase/time alignment (of the crossover output) will not change with frequency, however the speakers in the 650s and the subs will however have slightly different low frequency phase responses. When you raise the crossover frequency there will be a small relative change, I think you will luck if you notice anything.
Good luck ...
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Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
I can't speak to the Meyers, but I have first hand experience with the old Apogee SR1 and SR2 systems, and the processors for those definitely used sliding, or at least shifting, crossover points. At low power levels, the crossover point from 15s to horn was very low, probably in the range of 500 Hz. Once you pushed them harder, the crossover point moved higher, letting the 15s do more of the work. They went from sounding pretty good, to rather nasty, when this happened. I haven't used the 3x3s, so it's possible they didn't use the same technology, but the SR series certainly did.
GTD
Uh-oh, I must be losing my mind! It's been too long. The SR2s were Renkus, not Apogee. Please disregard most of that crap above :blush: (The part about about the SRs sounding OK at low level, and getting harsh as they got loud was correct.)
I can't speak to the Meyers, but I have first hand experience with the old Apogee SR1 and SR2 systems, and the processors for those definitely used sliding, or at least shifting, crossover points. At low power levels, the crossover point from 15s to horn was very low, probably in the range of 500 Hz. Once you pushed them harder, the crossover point moved higher, letting the 15s do more of the work. They went from sounding pretty good, to rather nasty, when this happened. I haven't used the 3x3s, so it's possible they didn't use the same technology, but the SR series certainly did.
GTD
Uh-oh, I must be losing my mind! It's been too long. The SR2s were Renkus, not Apogee. Please disregard most of that crap above :blush: (The part about about the SRs sounding OK at low level, and getting harsh as they got loud was correct.)
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Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
If you were entertaining the idea....
Used Apogee Model A 3 Loudspeaker Management Processors Nice | eBay
If you were entertaining the idea....
Used Apogee Model A 3 Loudspeaker Management Processors Nice | eBay
Re: apogee 3x3s2 vs eaw 650z
That would be a processor for Apogee AE-3 speakers, a small 10"+1" model, not a 3x3, a dual 15"+2"+1".
Mac
That would be a processor for Apogee AE-3 speakers, a small 10"+1" model, not a 3x3, a dual 15"+2"+1".
Mac