BEs and System DSP

BEs and System DSP

  • No access whatsoever

    Votes: 19 30.2%

  • Will make changes at BE's request

    Votes: 44 69.8%

  • Unlimited Access

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    63
Spenser Hamilton

Spenser Hamilton

Senior
Sep 12, 2012
653
6
18
SW Ontario
This is a question for providers, I welcome input from the many talented BEs on the board as well though.

I have a short story to go along with this, what I am wondering what the status quo is for allowing BEs access to change system processor settings? I've attached a poll.

Long story short: We recently had a show where the BE disabled output EQ on the processor, spent some time EQing the system on his mix outputs(essentially recreating what was already supposed to happen in the processor) and then complain all night that the rig sounded bad (it did sound bad). We do a lot of work in the room in question, and usually the BEs are able to get outstanding mixes out of the rig, so I'm not convinced it's any fault on our part.

Talking to some local colleagues, several were surprised that we even allowed the engineer to make changes to the DSP, however, many riders specify that the engineer has access to the processor. I've even seen one or two riders lately that state "system tech is NOT to ask band to reduce output level under any circumstance".

What do you guys think?
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

I was going to vote will make SOME changes but probably not major EQ changes more along the line of adjusting the relative levels of each band pass, definitely never adjust limiters and level adjustments would probably to turn down rather than up. What was his problem with how I was set up? G
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

I will make changes at the BE's request, which is seldom needed.

In the 1800 seat theater I occasionally system tech at, the "dsp" is a network of multiple DME boxes, running to (among other things) three powered Vertec arrays with on-board dsp. I am running factory presets on the Vertecs, and the only processing we are doing there is limiting at clipping points. There is no room eq preset in either the Vertecs or the DME network (It's a damn fine room, luckily). FOH console is PM5D, and there is some room eq there if needed.

Most touring acts we are seeing either don't care or are carrying Galileo rigs and can tune to their heart's content. The "must have DSP access" line in the rider is a safeguard against really really bad systems or systems where the design didn't include guest-adjustable EQ. If you have the right equipment, the right firmware, the right presets, and it is properly tuned to the room, then lock it down. Any decent BE can take it from their with his own gear or with whatever EQ you provide them at FOH.

As far as output reduction goes, if you've got the right amount of PA and you have it protected from blatant stupidity you'll never have to ask that it be turned down.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

As a system engineer, the BE is welcome to run by me what he wants, and I will decide if it can be implemented within the constraints of whomever I am responsible to for the system.

As a BE, I ask for access in my rider, and expect to never have to use it. If I have to go into the DSP that means other things are already majorly wrong. I think I have told the story before about the performing arts center that had 2 way tops plus subs, and had a three way crossover in their drive rack: subs to subs, highs to the tops, mids going no where.

Part of this also comes down to the provider configuring their system in a way that is workable for a visiting tech. In the OP's example, I would have a saved scene in the dsp with no eq, but the limiters, crossovers, etc. set. Call up that scene, and then let them have a go at eq for the space. If they can't get it, you can always go back to your preset for the space that includes your eq.

As for statements about volume control, there is no way I would turn over control of both the limiters and total volume to any visitor without a clear mandate from whomever owns the rig. If it were my rig, that part of the rider would not be accepted and there would be an override statement in MY contract. Actually, on the medium club/festival circuit I tend to work, I can't think of a single booking agent actually including the rider as part of the contract. If a rider is not specifically made part of the contract, it is not a binding agreement.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Thanks for the replies guys. The output levels and limiters were not altered as far as I know, the output EQ was disabled even after being told that it probably wouldn't sound good, things went downhill from there. They were, of course, "our fault".

The 'no turning down' clause has shown up once or twice this year, one of those jobs didn't happen because the venue opted not to bid on gig, the other was passed on to another shop higher on the food chain. For the most part we always have enough rig for the gig, so we've never had to turn anyone down, I just found that line to be peculiar.

Jay: We saved a preset for the BE, next show we just reverted back to our preset.

Evan: Does that fall in line with what you would expect when out with a band? Would you be terribly offended if denied access to the DSP?
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

You can never guard your self from running into idiots. In general I would say that the BE should have access to the Input of the processor (Over all EQ, ability to provide different mixes/inputs if wanted) anything on the output side should be handled by the Systech (Alignment, zoning,polarity, System EQ, Limiters etc). It should be a corporation to get the best sound possible for the audience, can't understand why its so hard for people to understand.
WHat part of "your" BE Ego, is rampaged, that you can't High pass the Vocals a little higher (now that your in a reverberant concrete hall) than yesterday, and how can it be a argument to get the systech to turn down the +15db haystacked subs, for the jazz trio.....etc

As for volume (overall level) we have laws in most EU countries that triumphs any ego (so as long as you provide enough PA to meet the limit, and can document what the level is, its not your "problem" (you will take the heat for it though :) )
/R
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Here is the deal. The provider is responsible to provide a tuned system. The BE is responsible to make sure the system is in fact tuned. Any questions?

The provider knows their system and if it applies usually knows the room. If they did their job and tuned it correctly then there should not be a problem or even a question and the BE can do what he was hired to do, MIX. Unfortunately in the real world that is not always the case and then the BE is forced to tune the system, mix around the problems, or have it sound bad.
 
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Re: BEs and System DSP

Spenser Hamilton said:
Evan: Does that fall in line with what you would expect when out with a band? Would you be terribly offended if denied access to the DSP?
Click to expand...

In my rider it states: "Systems must be loaded with the MANUFACTURER'S latest presets. CUSTOM presets are not acceptable."

99% of the time, PA companies listen, and I only have to deal with the input processing. On the rare occasion that their system is completely fucked, I will bypass their DSP all together and use my Lake to drive the rig.



Evan
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

My rider dictates, and I do actually demand, access to all DSP settings. I too have a line in the rider that demands all systems be on most recent manufacturer presets. This was mostly added for Vertec providers, who are the worst offenders when it comes to making their own presets.

I would never change output settings (FKA crossover settings) but frequently change input eq. I almost always turn down the subs. On a Galileo I always like to look and see how the provider has used it's myriad tuning options. I like using array correction and atmospheric correction, so I will often add that in if they have opted not to. This is, of course, after listening.

The more zones, the less likely I am to dive in. I did two shows at Hamer Hall in Melbourne last week. They have over 100 outputs from their D-mitri feeding Milo, M'elodie delay clusters, under balconies, etc. It was tuned by Bob McCarthy. It sounded amazing. There was no array correction or atmospheric correction, but I wasn't going to touch it.

Earlier in the summer I dug myself into a hole at Central Park Summer Stage. They had hired someone to tune their Mica array and there were some very strange filters in, like a shelving boost of everything below 500. The system tech said they often bypass some of it but leave some in. I listened and it just didn't sound very good. The system tech agreed. 8 per side Mica outdoors should not take a lot of work to make me happy. So I started over. I was disappointed with the results. It happens. Lesson learned.

Occasionally I have system techs who are resistant to opening up their DSP's. I am mixing an act in the 80db range so there is no chance of damaging the PA. There is not a good defense of limiting its access other than speaker protection. I don't think I have ever lost the argument.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Jason Raboin said:
My rider dictates, and I do actually demand, access to all DSP settings. I too have a line in the rider that demands all systems be on most recent manufacturer presets. This was mostly added for Vertec providers, who are the worst offenders when it comes to making their own presets.

...

Occasionally I have system techs who are resistant to opening up their DSP's. I am mixing an act in the 80db range so there is no chance of damaging the PA. There is not a good defense of limiting its access other than speaker protection. I don't think I have ever lost the argument.
Click to expand...

Herein lies the central issue of trust. No gig pays enough to cover gear destruction. I will never sign a contract that says a BE has full access to the DSP, because that of course includes the speaker protection - there's no reason ever for a BE to change that (I'm using manufacturer presets, but even if I wasn't, it's still my call how hard the gear can be pushed). Anyone who won't accept that limitation isn't a gig I want to provide for.

Other than that, I have no problem letting the BE have access to EQ, delay, and whatever other parameters they think they need. If the BE's adjustments make it worse (IMO) but the BE is happy - fine. If the BE wants to start over, I have a recall button. Maybe the BE does a better job of tuning than I can. In that case, I've hopefully learned something.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

I was down this road before black box presets. Every BE seemed to have a different idea of how a rig should sound and felt that the way to achieve it was to make DSP changes in our OmniDrives. Eventually I locked them and told the BEs that only our boss had the password, and he was in Argentina.

Now with the VerTec rigs, all the DSP is in the amplifiers. When a BE asks for DSP access I tell them "it's the stock JBL v4.2 processing, it's locked by JBL. There is no access." EQ the rig any way you like, and you can change subsystem alignment (FF, L/R, subs) at the desk if you choose to do so."

YMMV and all that, but if a rig was properly aligned and tuned based on factory processing there is very little a BE can or should be doing inside the DSP.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Tim McCulloch said:
I was down this road before black box presets. Every BE seemed to have a different idea of how a rig should sound and felt that the way to achieve it was to make DSP changes in our OmniDrives. Eventually I locked them and told the BEs that only our boss had the password, and he was in Argentina.

Now with the VerTec rigs, all the DSP is in the amplifiers. When a BE asks for DSP access I tell them "it's the stock JBL v4.2 processing, it's locked by JBL. There is no access." EQ the rig any way you like, and you can change subsystem alignment (FF, L/R, subs) at the desk if you choose to do so."

YMMV and all that, but if a rig was properly aligned and tuned based on factory processing there is very little a BE can or should be doing inside the DSP.
Click to expand...

+1. Same here. We run Turbosound presets loaded into PLM20000Q amps. The presets are locked from the factory. The BE can do all the tweaking they want on the EQ and sub system delays via Lake.
 
Our EAW rigs are all processed by our ux processors using grey boxes, and I've never had a BE worth paying ask me for more than some input eq or changing input level to line up with the output of their console. I've had some terrible BEs tell me the system is set up wrong and offer to fix it for me. Usually I already have some clues from the advance, but sometimes my first clue that the BE is terrible is, before hearing the system, they ask to change the settings in the processor. I never let anyone other than me into the processor. I will make whatever input changes they want.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus 4
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Seconding what most people have said really. As a system tech I wouldn't let anyone touch the output side of things unless they could give me a really good reason to. I'd make sure any EQ tweaks etc could be done at the console.

As a BE I'd expect the same - I want to be able to fine tune a system to my/the bands requirements at the desk with nothing more than EQ/level changes. If I need more than that the tech hasn't done their job properly.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Thanks for all the input everyone, at this point I'm just sitting back and considering all the different angles that have been presented here.

More info: JBL SRX cabs, Crown Macrotechs, DBX Driverack loaded with presets from Harman for main PA, we tie into the house rig for balcony fills. I do double duty at these jobs as I work at the company that supplied production as well as being the house audio tech for the venue in question, so I feel I've got a good idea what does and does not work in the room. We've never had an issue with this configuration for other artists, I don't feel that we dropped the ball, I'm sure the band tech feels differently though.

Charles Harrigan said:
but sometimes my first clue that the BE is terrible is, before hearing the system, they ask to change the settings in the processor.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, this was the case. "Can we start with everything flat?" before the rig had made a single sound that day.

I'm tempted to move the processor from the FOH rack to one of the amp racks at this point, would save on return lines too.
 
Re: BEs and System DSP

Spenser Hamilton said:
Oddly enough, this was the case. "Can we start with everything flat?" before the rig had made a single sound that day.

I'm tempted to move the processor from the FOH rack to one of the amp racks at this point, would save on return lines too.
Click to expand...

I would think this comes from the expectation of a graphic eq on the mains. Starting with everything flat may not be a bad policy. I would not expect that to include the speaker processor settings, which should be the manufacturer's specified parameters. I try to avoid using the processor for show system eq. That should be an external eq next to the console, or an eq built into the console. I prefer the ones in the console because there is already one there on every output.

Mac
 
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