Chrysler paid....

[Charlie Zureki]

Hello,

I was so happy to hear at the Corporate Show/Press Conference that Chrysler has repaid their Government's Loans....and, SIX YEARS Earlier than scheduled..too

Once again ...it makes a case that Engineers, Designers, and hard fought Business Degree recipients of the "lesser" Universities seem to understand how to build a car, how to sell it, and how to stucture the business behind it all.

80k+ workers and their families were appreciative of the loans, and the fact they never had to hit the Unemployment lines.

Winners all around.

Hammer

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Chrysler paid....

I'm glad 80k were made happy, what about the millions of us? Some winners, indeed, but not all.

First before we confuse what the news item is about, Chrysler is not really retiring this debt, just borrowing a similar amount from somebody else to lower their interest rate. They were paying something like >10% to the government, way above market rates, because they were ummm bankrupt. The government still holds something like 8% equity, because even the government couldn't justify loans for the whole amount they needed. BTW UAW retirement owns 55% of Chrysler. The government actually owns more of GM at 26% but this is down from a high of 60% reduced by the public offering a few months ago.

Opinions vary. This bail out has certainly helped some interests. OTOH VW just opened a new factory in Chattanooga that will give them a low cost manufacturing base, and provide new employment for the good folks in TN.

I am also following the Government's interference with Boeing's attempt to open a new factory in SC. I sure hope Boeing doesn't just move the new factory to Canada or Mexico. This government advocacy for special interests is certainly not what I want them to focus on. Of course government gifts to big business is equally inappropriate. They need to get the hell out of all business, and stick to governing. [/rant]

JR

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Chrysler paid....

I'm glad 80k were made happy, what about the millions of us? Some winners, indeed, but not all.

If the loans are paid back...in whatever manner, what's to complain about? How would these 80k+ jobs disappearing help the American Economy? I guess I missed that day in Economics Class....

OTOH VW just opened a new factory in Chattanooga that will give them a low cost manufacturing base, and provide new employment for the good folks in TN.

Not to begrudge anyone the chance at a feeding their family, but, does this "low cost manufacturing base" provide enough income to sustain these worker's families? Or, will they need to also get a part-time job to pay for their gasoline to and from work?

Of course government gifts to big business is equally inappropriate. They need to get the hell out of all business, and stick to governing. [/rant]

JR

I agree that gifts to big business is inappropriate, but, Chrysler and GM did not receive gifts, it was LOANS, and the Government should start it's gift termimation with big Oil, Agriculture, the Pharmaceutical, Insurance, Military suppliers, and other Nations....and Tax incentives such as building new VW plant.

While you may say that it was wrong to give these Auto Companies loans... the workers kept their jobs (at less pay), the Loans are being repaid...unlike the Wall Street handouts...and their Billions worth of Bonuses.

Cheers,
Hammer

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Charlie - everyone wants everyone to have high paying jobs - in fact why stop there - I want everyone to be independently wealthy so no one has to work at all. The reality is that we live in a global economy where there are 6 billion people willing to work cheaper than the average American. We have to compete or die - that's the way it is.

Consumers have spoken that we're not willing to pay the large price premium for something to be made in the USA, and government policies trying to "protect" American jobs by propping up an inefficient system in companies such as Government Motors or Chrysler are temporary fixes like giving another dose of crack to stave off the withdrawal symptoms of an addict.

Chrysler and GM got bailed out (more than once) because they have high brand recognition in the minds of consumers and are considered as American as apple pie, though in reality many BMWs, Hondas, Toyotas and others are at least as American made as the "American" big 3, and all of them are filled with foreign parts.

It would be great if a few "loans" from the government could fix everything, but not everyone gets a shot at a loan, and some of those that do (large banks getting TARP money for example) don't want the money but are forced to take it anyway.

We will end up being competitive with the rest of the world one way or another - either we will be able to justify our higher salaries with better ideas, new technology, higher productivity, etc., or our prices will fall to be in line with what the world market will bear. We can delay this a bit with government manipulation of business and the economy, but the endgame is sure.

By the way, "WallStreet" is us too - a corporation is nothing more than a collection of shareholders - individual people.

I don't generally like the Gov't giving "handouts" to "corporations" either, however as these "corporations" bear a lot of the tax burden of an area, often it's just a matter of giving the corporation some of their own money back.

Here in MN, like in many states, we are struggling with spending more money than we are taking in on our tax base. The rallying cry of the left, echoed by our Governor Dayton is to tax the rich more so they pay their "fair share". Too bad for the "rich people" that the rich don't get much say on what their "fair share" is. Too bad for the "not so rich" people that Minnesota is right next to South Dakota, with a much better tax climate. Jobs are already migrating west out of MN.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Chrysler paid....

I agree that gifts to big business is inappropriate, but, Chrysler and GM did not receive gifts, it was LOANS, and the Government should start it's gift termimation with big Oil, Agriculture, the Pharmaceutical, Insurance, Military suppliers, and other Nations....and Tax incentives such as building new VW plant.

While you may say that it was wrong to give these Auto Companies loans... the workers kept their jobs (at less pay), the Loans are being repaid...unlike the Wall Street handouts...and their Billions worth of Bonuses.

Cheers,
Hammer

Hello Hammer, John

First off, does anybody have HBO and watched "Too Big to Fail?"
I know it was not a documentary, but was a good watch.

Second, I know we are going to get into the same old circuitous arguments, but.....
Gotta agree with messing so much with markets. Growing up on a ranch, and seeing how the government subsidies have fucked with our food chain/supply so much, is an eye opener. And then knowing where the government money is going, was certainly not to the small producer. This has had far reaching economic consequences in more ways than just at the top. It has affected the general health of America, and in return the health care system, and is exacerbating my inner Michael Pollan. Then there are the wacky examples of rich duck hunters who get hundreds of thousands of dollars to not harvest the grasses that are on their expensive get away properties just for duck food.

Big Oil. *sigh* My biggest beef here is with Sarah Palin. She basically instituted or at least endorsed, as Governor, big taxes on Alaskan oil, so that the constituents of the state reap the benefits of having the resource in their ground. But is taking the opposite approach in the lower 48 because it is in lock step with the party? WTC?

And then Wall Street. I can see why we are extending the tax cuts so that all of those bonuses will trickle down. (/sarcasm) Again, affecting the food chain, and world wide hunger in general. Legally, firms can't trade in food futures. But they can for their clients. So Goldman Sachs made $1B last year, just in their commissions on trading food futures for their clients. We know how well that works with oil. But now we are talking about a necessity, a basic need of life. For everyone world wide. And if GS is making $1B on our food supply..........

Regards, Jack

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Chrysler paid....

The vast majority of stock ownership is by institutional investors, not individuals. Show up at an annual meeting and attempt to address the audience and board while flouting your 100-1000 shares... you won't get heard. Wall Street is NOT "us" no matter what we would like it to be.

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Chrysler paid....

The vast majority of stock ownership is by institutional investors, not individuals. Show up at an annual meeting and attempt to address the audience and board while flouting your 100-1000 shares... you won't get heard. Wall Street is NOT "us" no matter what we would like it to be.

I work for an "institutional investor". This money is "ours" too - institutional investors invest on behalf of their clients, which are either individuals, or corporations, which again are made of individuals. There aren't large pools of faceless money that we can raid for either taxation or litigation - everything ultimately is in your or my 401K, or belongs to somebody.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Chrysler paid....

If the loans are paid back...in whatever manner, what's to complain about? How would these 80k+ jobs disappearing help the American Economy? I guess I missed that day in Economics Class....

First my apologies for revisiting this can of worms...

The jobs are not what gets saved, it's control over those still serviceable means of production. If GM and Chrysler were sent to simple bankruptcy, the factories that were productive wouldn't be torn down, they would be reopened by some new business entity and workers would be hired to man those productive factories.

Who knows, the new car companies might be so competitive that VW wouldn't have a chance, but as it turns out the "new" GM and "new" Chrysler are not that different from the old ones that VW still sees an opportunity to compete with them here on US soil.

Not to begrudge anyone the chance at a feeding their family, but, does this "low cost manufacturing base" provide enough income to sustain these worker's families? Or, will they need to also get a part-time job to pay for their gasoline to and from work?

$14.50 an hour. just a shade less than UAW's $28/hr , the 2007 UAW contract allows for new hires at $14. Either one number is too high or the other too low... opinions vary.

I recall when Mercedes built their plant in Tuscaloosa, they attracted some workers away from Peavey, despite being in the next state, so the pay is all relative.

I agree that gifts to big business is inappropriate, but, Chrysler and GM did not receive gifts, it was LOANS, and the Government should start it's gift termimation with big Oil, Agriculture, the Pharmaceutical, Insurance, Military suppliers, and other Nations....and Tax incentives such as building new VW plant.

Again not to rehash old business but there was an expedited bankruptcy process with bond and debt holders getting rather poor treatment, the government did more and is doing more than a simple loan. A friend of mine with a small business was owed a bunch of money by the old GM, he didn't do well at all.

IMO it is not the federal government's job to pick winners and losers in private industry.

While you may say that it was wrong to give these Auto Companies loans... the workers kept their jobs (at less pay), the Loans are being repaid...unlike the Wall Street handouts...and their Billions worth of Bonuses.

Cheers,
Hammer

great now we don't need to raise the debt ceiling.

Damn those wall street fat cats... lets raise their taxes....

Gas it too expensive lets raise taxes on oil companies,,, that'll show them. As if the oil companies can't and won't pass along that cost increase to consumers. I find it remarkable that people fall for these punish even if you shoot yourself in the foot arguments, but they still seem to play well in some circles. If we want cheaper gas, we need to drill for more oil, not punish the oil companies and make it harder for them to develop new oil finds.

By now at least some people must be realizing that there is a bill coming due for all this increased borrowing and spending. We won't balance these budgets on the back of the millionaires (or just >$250k) , even if you take all of their money. The tax man is coming for you and me because the millionaires don't have enough money, only we do.

JR

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Chrysler paid....

The tax man is coming for you and me because the millionaires don't have enough money, only we do.
JR

"We" don't have enough money either, and as long as there remains such a large disconnect between the consumers of government services and those that pay for them, nothing will ever change. The consumers will continue to vote in folks who implement new "essential" services, and vote that the "rich" should pay for them for the greater good.

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Hello Hammer, John

First off, does anybody have HBO and watched "Too Big to Fail?"
I know it was not a documentary, but was a good watch.

Sorry I don't get HBO,, but I have been paying close attention, and formed my own conclusions.

Second, I know we are going to get into the same old circuitous arguments, but.....
Gotta agree with messing so much with markets. Growing up on a ranch, and seeing how the government subsidies have fucked with our food chain/supply so much, is an eye opener. And then knowing where the government money is going, was certainly not to the small producer. This has had far reaching economic consequences in more ways than just at the top. It has affected the general health of America, and in return the health care system, and is exacerbating my inner Michael Pollan. Then there are the wacky examples of rich duck hunters who get hundreds of thousands of dollars to not harvest the grasses that are on their expensive get away properties just for duck food.

I am currently reading Adam Smiths "Wealth of nations", and while a pretty dry read, it is interesting how much we knew hundreds of years ago.

Farming is an important business and needs occasional government support to make it through the natural peaks and valleys of good crop years and bad.. That virtuous support for the national good had been distorted and taken advantage of to ludicrous ends. The latest farm state giveaway is ethanol subsidies. Don't get me started. Farm price supports are a good concept but not how the politicians have abused and misused these to buy votes in early primary states.

Big Oil. *sigh* My biggest beef here is with Sarah Palin. She basically instituted or at least endorsed, as Governor, big taxes on Alaskan oil, so that the constituents of the state reap the benefits of having the resource in their ground. But is taking the opposite approach in the lower 48 because it is in lock step with the party? WTC?

Sarah doesn't get much love... AK is a special case, state owned oil, so wealth from that was directly shared with state residents.

Revenue from drilling in the Gulf was shared with gulf region states, which is why they (we) are still suffering from the foot dragging in restarting drilling here.

Big oil, must buy most oil on world markets, since we don't own it in the first place we can't very well expect to share the profit. Perhaps if we expanded drilling here on federal lands... we have lots of oil/gas/shale/etc here.

Big oil makes big profits (amounts not percentages), because the companies are SO BIG. We shouldn't have allowed them to consolidate, but there is actually merit in this large scale when it comes to having deep enough pockets to pay for the occasional oil tanker running aground or underwater bad cement job, with well head shear that didn't work.

And then Wall Street. I can see why we are extending the tax cuts so that all of those bonuses will trickle down. (/sarcasm) Again, affecting the food chain, and world wide hunger in general. Legally, firms can't trade in food futures. But they can for their clients. So Goldman Sachs made $1B last year, just in their commissions on trading food futures for their clients. We know how well that works with oil. But now we are talking about a necessity, a basic need of life. For everyone world wide. And if GS is making $1B on our food supply..........

Regards, Jack

I have watched the price of a can of corn go from $.33 to $.67 or more in a short time because of ethanol. The developing world discovering a taste for meat, will also increase costs all along the food chain and cows eat pounds of grain to make a pound of meat, etc.

All markets need to be regulated, and speculation limited so they can't manipulate and distort prices in the short term, but in general futures speculation is virtuous and good for markets as it steers investment toward mitigating future shortages. Right now the commodity markets are a little crazy because of all the liquidity put in circulation by helicopter Ben to prop up asset values so there's too much fast money chasing finite assets. The same pukes who were flipping houses, are now flipping cotton and cocoa. This quantitative easing hasn't worked for home values, but the stock market, silver and gold have been rocking... in a mixed bet against the dollar.

JR

PS: How about those Heat..? just barely breaking 100 pts at the end of single overtime... now that's good defense by both teams. The opposite of watching an all star game. No wonder the civilians are unimpressed by the series.

 

[Jack Arnott]

Re: Chrysler paid....

PS: How about those Heat..? just barely breaking 100 pts at the end of single overtime... now that's good defense by both teams. The opposite of watching an all star game. No wonder the civilians are unimpressed by the series.

I was working on that one on the side too.

 

[Ben Lagman]

Re: Chrysler paid....

now if only this could happen to citigroup...

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Charlie - everyone wants everyone to have high paying jobs - in fact why stop there - I want everyone to be independently wealthy so no one has to work at all. The reality is that we live in a global economy where there are 6 billion people willing to work cheaper than the average American. We have to compete or die - that's the way it is.

So, when did this "global economy" start? Something fairly new huh? There have always been numerous people that will work for less money, where and when does it end? It appears that some Americans would be happy if the Average wage was $1 per hour....like China. Lower wages = more control of the population. And..how does lowering the wages of the majority of Americans (middle class) actually benefit our Western Countries or the Western People?

C

onsumers have spoken that we're not willing to pay the large price premium for something to be made in the USA, and government policies trying to "protect" American jobs by propping up an inefficient system in companies such as Government Motors or Chrysler are temporary fixes like giving another dose of crack to stave off the withdrawal symptoms of an addict.

Huh? First off... American Auto quality and pricing is comparable to other Manufacturers. I suppose you haven't seen any studies/surveys in the last three years? The quality issues of American products were not the fault of the average Worker, but of the Management that directs them. And...I guess you don't understand that they ARE showing a PROFIT...that's why they CAN pay back their loans.

The U.S. Government's job is to protect the people and their form of Government. This protection also applies to the "welfare" of it's people. In this case "welfare" includes financial security ...jobs.

It would be great if a few "loans" from the government could fix everything, but not everyone gets a shot at a loan, and some of those that do (large banks getting TARP money for example) don't want the money but are forced to take it anyway.

Yeah...they're really upset that they were "forced" to take Loans... gimme a break. These Banks/Insurance Companies took the Loans because, if they hadn't, the World-wide Economy would have collapsed... and these Executives probably would have been arrested, tried and convicted (if not assassinated).

We will end up being competitive with the rest of the world one way or another - either we will be able to justify our higher salaries with better ideas, new technology, higher productivity, etc., or our prices will fall to be in line with what the world market will bear. We can delay this a bit with government manipulation of business and the economy, but the endgame is sure.

While I agree with this statement... how does the Average large Corporation worker become "more productive" ...he's at the mercy of his supervisors and Company Management?

By the way, "WallStreet" is us too - a corporation is nothing more than a collection of shareholders - individual people.

The top 2% of Americans own 85% of the American Wealth. While they may be individuals, they are definitely not Average Americans.

Here in MN, like in many states, we are struggling with spending more money than we are taking in on our tax base. The rallying cry of the left, echoed by our Governor Dayton is to tax the rich more so they pay their "fair share". Too bad for the "rich people" that the rich don't get much say on what their "fair share" is.

Every State has had spending issues, and for a very long time. Btw... The "rich" don't pay their fair share of taxes now, and the "Ultra Rich" don't pay any taxes. Ever read the GAO report? Most Corporations in the U.S. don't pay any taxes, but, unlike the American worker, they have representation through lawyers and lobbyists.

Why is there, this...class warfare argument anytime anyone discusses American laborers? The Rich don't want any help deciding what to do with their money.... so why are some people inclined to beg pity for them? They don't care if you eat....why should you care if they can afford another mansion or airplane?

I opened the original post guessing that people would feel happy that another Company, it's workers, and it's support Companies were saved from closing their doors, and unemployment lines, but, some seem to find fault in every situation. They paid back their loans to the U.S. Government and yet some can find fault that they shifted some of their remaining loan money to a lower liability. (which any smart Company would do).

Where's the moral outrage when there's still 30 million Americans still unemployed, that the Wall Street Banks are still floating checks, homes are still being foreclosed, and the Execs are still padding their portfolios? Where's the outrage that Executives can fincially ruin a Company, pay themselves Millions, and continually are re-upped for their position with little chance of being ousted by the common stock shareholders?

Those of you that wish to submit to "Global Wages" are welcome, but, I'll side with those that have the American spirt for a better quality of life. For those that think $14 is a generous wage, you need to get out more. As someone posted... the American Auto Company workers make $14 to $28 per hour. The top end is for those that are skilled labor... Electricians, Robot Technicians, Millwrights, Die Cutters, Pneumatic/Hydraulic Techs, Machinists, etc....and that's average for those trades.

Hammer

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Every State has had spending issues, and for a very long time. Btw... The "rich" don't pay their fair share of taxes now, and the "Ultra Rich" don't pay any taxes. Ever read the GAO report? Most Corporations in the U.S. don't pay any taxes, but, unlike the American worker, they have representation through lawyers and lobbyists.

And I repeat, you could take all the money from the "rich"(?) and it wouldn't pay for the way we're ramping up spending.

How much tax is fair?

The last time I looked at tax numbers the vast majority of taxes was paid by the higher earners, with more and more low-mid earners skating. When the majority of voters pay zero taxes, this bloodless revolution will be complete.

Why is there, this...class warfare argument anytime anyone discusses American laborers? The Rich don't want any help deciding what to do with their money.... so why are some people inclined to beg pity for them? They don't care if you eat....why should you care if they can afford another mansion or airplane?

"Labor" has become a special interest group that currently has new found power. much more than I can ever remember. Those of us not getting special treatment don't appreciate it.

I am not wealthy, but I am more sympathetic with people who make money by creating things than those who gain power and wealth by organizing for the purpose of withholding unskilled labor collectively that should be reasonably interchangeable and freely priced based on merit, supply and demand.

In another time, there were abuses of the relationship between those with capital and control over the tools of production, and those without. Today wealth can be created by almost anybody with little need for capital or connections, but it requires, effort, initiative, and hard work.

I opened the original post guessing that people would feel happy that another Company, it's workers, and it's support Companies were saved from closing their doors, and unemployment lines, but, some seem to find fault in every situation.

That would be me... I mainly find fault with that characterization...

The bad practices that got them (GM and Chrysler) into that hole, were not really fixed, just rolled back a little, while original investors and ownership was scraped off, forced to take the loss. The new owners will have their chance to prove their worth but I am not optimistic about their business plan.

This bailout IMO was used to amplify a power shift that had been smothering Detroit for years. The reset with a fresh infusion of capital will not change the direction they are headed.

They paid back their loans to the U.S. Government and yet some can find fault that they shifted some of their remaining loan money to a lower liability. (which any smart Company would do).

I only find fault with characterizing this as them paying off the loan SIX YEARS earlier than scheduled. Change your headline to they "refinanced" the debt with somebody else SIX YEARS early, and I'm cool.

In a political context this may be fodder for arm waving, if you ignore the small print. It has merit from a purely business perspective, but that has been lost to the hyperbole.

Where's the moral outrage when there's still 30 million Americans still unemployed, that the Wall Street Banks are still floating checks, homes are still being foreclosed, and the Execs are still padding their portfolios? Where's the outrage that Executives can fincially ruin a Company, pay themselves Millions, and continually are re-upped for their position with little chance of being ousted by the common stock shareholders?

Lets be careful about conflating those sundry screed

I am very outraged by the amount of money and time pissed away in the name of reducing unemployment. From where I sit, business has no more certainty today than they had a couple years ago about whether they can afford to start hiring. What are future employee costs going to be? What is the regulatory environment going to look like? When will they finish fleshing out Dodd-Frank? What is Elizabeth Warren up to? etc ...

No amount of "wanting" things to be different can change the reality of the many people upside down in mortgages. Even if we wanted to wave our arms and make everybody whole, there isn't enough money in all the piggy banks everywhere.

Delaying foreclosures for people who are way past default is not helping anybody. Just like a simple bankruptcy wouldn't destroy the GM factory, foreclosing on an upside down mortgage, frees that house to be sold to someone else, and frees that former owner, to find a different home they can afford... but they need to take the loss, just like the bank that holds the mortgage will lose (are already losing).

Right about now the music wells up and we start blaming wall street for taking the money and running... but if they did, that money would be sitting somewhere... Millions of people pissed away all that easy money and now it's all gone. The longer we refuse to accept that, the longer we will linger in this jobless recovery.

Those of you that wish to submit to "Global Wages" are welcome, but, I'll side with those that have the American spirt for a better quality of life. For those that think $14 is a generous wage, you need to get out more. As someone posted... the American Auto Company workers make $14 to $28 per hour. The top end is for those that are skilled labor... Electricians, Robot Technicians, Millwrights, Die Cutters, Pneumatic/Hydraulic Techs, Machinists, etc....and that's average for those trades.

Hammer

You seem to forget our own history... we were the low cost labor stealing jobs from GB and Europe a few hundred years ago. That was the "American" spirit based on circumstances then. The American spirit now is to keep creating wealth by creating value, not desperately trying to hold onto some past easier time.

It is worthwhile looking at the history of Europe since several nations there are making compelling examples of how we could end up if we continue our present path..

We don't need high speed rail, and even more government largess... we need to get government out of the way and unshackle the private sector to do what they do best... create wealth, not destroy it.

JR

PS: Hammer you know I love ya... just can't get down with you on this.

 

[John Norris]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Seeing the title "Too Big Too Fail" for an upcoming drama made me think of a phrase used by my favorite economist, Simon Johnson: "If (a financial institution) is too big to fail, then it's too big to exist." Here's a sample clip from the clear speaking Johnson, who was chief economist at the IMF, and who now teaches at the Sloan School at MIT.

He smells a rat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leseSiJnLFw&feature=related

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Chrysler paid....

It appears that some Americans would be happy if the Average wage was $1 per hour....like China. Lower wages = more control of the population. And..how does lowering the wages of the majority of Americans (middle class) actually benefit our Western Countries or the Western People?

I submit that statements like this are part of the class warfare too. Whenever I am critical of the Kyoto treaty or other radical lifestyle-threatening environmental proposals, I usually get accused of "liking pollution". I've just started admitting to stepping on kitties and puppies - it saves time, since no one ever stops to listen to what I have to say anyway.

I started my first response saying that I wish for a world where no one has to work at all. My wishing for that to happen hasn't made it come true, nor have unions, government bailouts, and protectionism been able to stop the effects of globalization, though many people wish it can/will. I don't like some of the consequences of globalization - certainly I want everyone to earn a more than livable wage. The problem is that the consumers of goods (us), even those who are proponents of those things shop at Walmart and refuse to pay more than $10 for a shirt, necessitating that the shirt either come from a foreign place with lower wages, or forcing US companies to compete in some fashion to be able to sell a shirt for $10. By in large US companies can't/haven't competed, which is why 99% of textiles are imported.

Btw... The "rich" don't pay their fair share of taxes now, and the "Ultra Rich" don't pay any taxes.

That's a common rallying cry, but it's not true. There are certainly ways to shelter some income (whether there should be or not depends on a person's view of the desirability of the government affecting behavior such as charitable giving or home ownership), but the "rich" and the "ultra rich" pay, depending on one's definitions of these arbitrary terms, 70% - 95% of all income taxes.

Why is there, this...class warfare argument anytime anyone discusses American laborers? The Rich don't want any help deciding what to do with their money.... so why are some people inclined to beg pity for them? They don't care if you eat....why should you care if they can afford another mansion or airplane?

I opened the original post guessing that people would feel happy that another Company, it's workers, and it's support Companies were saved from closing their doors, and unemployment lines, but, some seem to find fault in every situation. They paid back their loans to the U.S. Government and yet some can find fault that they shifted some of their remaining loan money to a lower liability. (which any smart Company would do).

Where's the moral outrage when there's still 30 million Americans still unemployed, that the Wall Street Banks are still floating checks, homes are still being foreclosed, and the Execs are still padding their portfolios? Where's the outrage that Executives can fincially ruin a Company, pay themselves Millions, and continually are re-upped for their position with little chance of being ousted by the common stock shareholders?

Those of you that wish to submit to "Global Wages" are welcome, but, I'll side with those that have the American spirt for a better quality of life. For those that think $14 is a generous wage, you need to get out more. As someone posted... the American Auto Company workers make $14 to $28 per hour. The top end is for those that are skilled labor... Electricians, Robot Technicians, Millwrights, Die Cutters, Pneumatic/Hydraulic Techs, Machinists, etc....and that's average for those trades.

Hammer

My moral outrage is due to the attitudes of entitlement that some folks have in the country (I'm not meaning you in this statement Hammer) and the shortsightedness of unending desire for more programs and "reality modifications" paid for by the transfer of wealth from "those other guys". In my opinion, this is not the American spirit.

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Chrysler paid....

My moral outrage is due to the attitudes of entitlement that some folks have in the country (I'm not meaning you in this statement Hammer) and the shortsightedness of unending desire for more programs and "reality modifications" paid for by the transfer of wealth from "those other guys". In my opinion, this is not the American spirit.

Yes...and that outrage of "attitude of entitlement" should extend to those in big finance that continually bankrupt the system by their schemes to separate money from those that need it the most.....the working man. Wall Street schemed and took the housing market down with it. Then, they blamed those that had aspired to have the "nice home in a safe neighborhood". (of course there was some greed along with the brainwashing perpetuated by those handing out Mortgages) But, the Mortgagee was deemed the sole culprit....as always.... it's the little guy that takes the brunt.

Then, there's the College Education mess. They hype higher education to young people as a cure to their future life's ambitions and security, yet there's few jobs to be had for those that do graduate. The cost of attending a traditional University is out of the reach of the majority. Many are compelled to take college loans to pay for this "education" and are saddled with a debt they cannot possibly pay down, because the best job they can find is a bit over minimum wage.

The biggest elephant in the room, of this financial mess, is least spoken of....and that is this quagmire of the two Wars of Afganistan and Iraq. It's well documented that the "Hawks" were scheming to invade those Countries years in advance. It only took time to get a Government and some easily manipulated stooges in place to launch their agenda.

While the talk of terrorist hunting rambled on, the Military equipment manufacturers ramped up their production. It was Viet Nam all over again, except the new technologies helped to spare a large difference in casualties, of American Boys and Girls, but, not of the 400,000 plus Iraqi's who've been killed.

We have 600+ Military installations around the World...why? Our budget for the Iraq & Afganistan War, and "normal" operations exceed 700 Billion dollars a year. Surely, there's a better way to keep Americans safe than to invade a foreign land.... hell, we don't even enforce our own borders....yet, we're trying to guess who & what handfull of crackpots are planning some offensive action against us. The REAL reasons for all of this War is to line some pockets and to pamper the power-mad egos of a group of elitists.

What I find the most offensive, is that, the same fools that complain about "Big Government" are those that defend the Billions of Dollars spent initiating new Agencies that are redundant to those we have now. They complain about Taxes being too high, yet, seem to have their hand in the pot or have lobbyists that buy projects.

We need reform, but it doesn't start with the little guy.

Hammer

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Chrysler paid....

Yes...and that outrage of "attitude of entitlement" should extend to those in big finance that continually bankrupt the system by their schemes to separate money from those that need it the most.....the working man. Wall Street schemed and took the housing market down with it. Then, they blamed those that had aspired to have the "nice home in a safe neighborhood". (of course there was some greed along with the brainwashing perpetuated by those handing out Mortgages) But, the Mortgagee was deemed the sole culprit....as always.... it's the little guy that takes the brunt.

A lot of people up and down the food chain benefitted from the artificial prosperity created by false, inflated home values... In fact the entire economy was fat and happy while the music was playing... A lot of unrelated businesses were also stimulated by that rising tide. Now it's time to pay the piper for all the non-existant wealth that was really spent by real people, on real (overpriced) stuff.

I'm sorry that the "can't lose" investment of buying a home, turned into a loser for so many people, but there is no such thing as a can't lose investment.

Then, there's the College Education mess. They hype higher education to young people as a cure to their future life's ambitions and security, yet there's few jobs to be had for those that do graduate. The cost of attending a traditional University is out of the reach of the majority. Many are compelled to take college loans to pay for this "education" and are saddled with a debt they cannot possibly pay down, because the best job they can find is a bit over minimum wage.

As a drop out, who hired and managed numerous engineers with and without degrees, a college education is IMO over rated. We as individuals control and are responsible for our destiny. Government help, invariably makes things worse. One of the few government programs that appeared productive, was a proactive retraining program in a small European country (Denmark?). Instead of paying unemployed to sit on their ass, they received targeted training that made them more employable.

The biggest elephant in the room, of this financial mess, is least spoken of....and that is this quagmire of the two Wars of Afganistan and Iraq. It's well documented that the "Hawks" were scheming to invade those Countries years in advance. It only took time to get a Government and some easily manipulated stooges in place to launch their agenda.

This discussion is always going on in the background between thoughtful people, but the public discussion as managed by partisan operatives is always reduced to some lowest common denominator, for a public with an attention span that can barely grasp one concept at a time. At the moment the popular message is pushing grand ma over the cliff by taking away her medicare.

Ironically in response to the wisdom of our military adventures, Iraq is starting to stand out as a beacon as the rare arab democracy, in the middle of an arab spring democratic movement in several nations, with the arab street hungry for self rule. You can argue this would have happened anyhow. I am not so sure.

While the talk of terrorist hunting rambled on, the Military equipment manufacturers ramped up their production. It was Viet Nam all over again, except the new technologies helped to spare a large difference in casualties, of American Boys and Girls, but, not of the 400,000 plus Iraqi's who've been killed.

It was almost Viet Nam over again, be we had leadership that didn't quit in the middle of the fight. There is much fault to find in the early prosecution or even choice of where to fight, but so far it is looking promising. Young democracies are always messy (so are old ones).

We have 600+ Military installations around the World...why? Our budget for the Iraq & Afganistan War, and "normal" operations exceed 700 Billion dollars a year. Surely, there's a better way to keep Americans safe than to invade a foreign land.... hell, we don't even enforce our own borders....yet, we're trying to guess who & what handfull of crackpots are planning some offensive action against us. The REAL reasons for all of this War is to line some pockets and to pamper the power-mad egos of a group of elitists.

We can have an honest debate about all of this,,, there are many politicians that steer military spending for local benefit whether we as nation need these programs or not. Congress needs to be fixed, and an amendment to limit total spending to a percentage of GDP will damp down all spending and make us more critical of our spending choices. Now they are spending like it's monopoly money with no consequences. The amount of waste in government spending is spectacular. Government programs invite fraud. We need to run a tighter ship.

What I find the most offensive, is that, the same fools that complain about "Big Government" are those that defend the Billions of Dollars spent initiating new Agencies that are redundant to those we have now. They complain about Taxes being too high, yet, seem to have their hand in the pot or have lobbyists that buy projects.

We need reform, but it doesn't start with the little guy.

Hammer

Huh? You have lost me on this one... We don't need more government and new laws, we need them to actually do their real job, and enforce old laws, while some recent ones seem to be over reaching and need to be trimmed back to something realistic.

of course i could be wrong...

JR

 

[TJ Cornish]

Re: Chrysler paid....

I agree with a lot of what you said in your last post, but keep in mind re: housing that the Gov't was one of the major proponents of making home ownership easier (Fanny + Freddie) - meaning less qualified people with poorer credit able to buy, contributing to house prices going up, not to mention the Greenspan money easing after the internet bubble driving down interest rates to historical lows, creating this imaginary buying power in the first place.

Anything rising faster than the average wage is unsustainable - education costs both college and public, home prices, taxes, etc. We've broken the back of home prices, at least for a while - we'll see if there's a similar pullback on education or taxes.

Edit - I was replying to Charlie - JR posted while I was typing...

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Chrysler paid....

I'm sorry that the "can't lose" investment of buying a home, turned into a loser for so many people, but there is no such thing as a can't lose investment.

Don't be sorry for me... I never lost a home, nor have I ever believed that housing was an investment. That, "can't lose" and "investment" verbage was commonly used by the Real Estate Industry.

Huh? You have lost me on this one... We don't need more government and new laws, we need them to actually do their real job, and enforce old laws, while some recent ones seem to be over reaching and need to be trimmed back to something realistic.

I agree, and that is exactly what I was saying. We have too much Government, and in the wrong areas. We never needed the TSA, DHS, and dozens of other new organizations, and going back even further, we never needed the ATF. When these Agencies were enacted, they were fed Billions of Dollars, and in some cases.....the budgets are not even known. All of these duties could have been handled by the FBI, Border Agents and State or Federal Police.

Yet, some of those that complain of "Big Government" are benefitting from these Agencies through Equipment Contracts...such as Body Scanners and Failed Security systems and incomplete Border Security Systems.

I find this hypocrisy intolerable...just like the National Health care plan .....some claim they were against it,(Health Insurance Co.s) and yet, the big Health Insurers will stand to benefit from it when it becomes manditory for those to purchase a Health care plan.

Hammer