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The Basement
Chrysler paid....
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<blockquote data-quote="John Roberts" data-source="post: 30961" data-attributes="member: 126"><p>Re: Chrysler paid....</p><p></p><p></p><p>And I repeat, you could take all the money from the "rich"(?) and it wouldn't pay for the way we're ramping up spending. </p><p></p><p>How much tax is fair? </p><p></p><p>The last time I looked at tax numbers the vast majority of taxes was paid by the higher earners, with more and more low-mid earners skating. When the majority of voters pay zero taxes, this bloodless revolution will be complete. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Labor" has become a special interest group that currently has new found power. much more than I can ever remember. Those of us not getting special treatment don't appreciate it. </p><p></p><p>I am not wealthy, but I am more sympathetic with people who make money by creating things than those who gain power and wealth by organizing for the purpose of withholding unskilled labor collectively that should be reasonably interchangeable and freely priced based on merit, supply and demand. </p><p></p><p>In another time, there were abuses of the relationship between those with capital and control over the tools of production, and those without. Today wealth can be created by almost anybody with little need for capital or connections, but it requires, effort, initiative, and hard work. </p><p></p><p></p><p>That would be me... I mainly find fault with that characterization... </p><p></p><p>The bad practices that got them (GM and Chrysler) into that hole, were not really fixed, just rolled back a little, while original investors and ownership was scraped off, forced to take the loss. The new owners will have their chance to prove their worth but I am not optimistic about their business plan. </p><p></p><p>This bailout IMO was used to amplify a power shift that had been smothering Detroit for years. The reset with a fresh infusion of capital will not change the direction they are headed. </p><p></p><p>I only find fault with characterizing this as them paying off the loan SIX YEARS earlier than scheduled. Change your headline to they "refinanced" the debt with somebody else SIX YEARS early, and I'm cool. </p><p></p><p>In a political context this may be fodder for arm waving, if you ignore the small print. It has merit from a purely business perspective, but that has been lost to the hyperbole. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>Lets be careful about conflating those sundry screed</p><p></p><p>I am very outraged by the amount of money and time pissed away in the name of reducing unemployment. From where I sit, business has no more certainty today than they had a couple years ago about whether they can afford to start hiring. What are future employee costs going to be? What is the regulatory environment going to look like? When will they finish fleshing out Dodd-Frank? What is Elizabeth Warren up to? etc ...</p><p></p><p>No amount of "wanting" things to be different can change the reality of the many people upside down in mortgages. Even if we wanted to wave our arms and make everybody whole, there isn't enough money in all the piggy banks everywhere. </p><p></p><p>Delaying foreclosures for people who are way past default is not helping anybody. Just like a simple bankruptcy wouldn't destroy the GM factory, foreclosing on an upside down mortgage, frees that house to be sold to someone else, and frees that former owner, to find a different home they can afford... but they need to take the loss, just like the bank that holds the mortgage will lose (are already losing). </p><p></p><p>Right about now the music wells up and we start blaming wall street for taking the money and running... but if they did, that money would be sitting somewhere... Millions of people pissed away all that easy money and now it's all gone. The longer we refuse to accept that, the longer we will linger in this jobless recovery. </p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to forget our own history... we were the low cost labor stealing jobs from GB and Europe a few hundred years ago. That was the "American" spirit based on circumstances then. The American spirit now is to keep creating wealth by creating value, not desperately trying to hold onto some past easier time. </p><p></p><p>It is worthwhile looking at the history of Europe since several nations there are making compelling examples of how we could end up if we continue our present path.. </p><p></p><p>We don't need high speed rail, and even more government largess... we need to get government out of the way and unshackle the private sector to do what they do best... create wealth, not destroy it. </p><p></p><p>JR</p><p></p><p>PS: Hammer you know I love ya... just can't get down with you on this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="John Roberts, post: 30961, member: 126"] Re: Chrysler paid.... And I repeat, you could take all the money from the "rich"(?) and it wouldn't pay for the way we're ramping up spending. How much tax is fair? The last time I looked at tax numbers the vast majority of taxes was paid by the higher earners, with more and more low-mid earners skating. When the majority of voters pay zero taxes, this bloodless revolution will be complete. "Labor" has become a special interest group that currently has new found power. much more than I can ever remember. Those of us not getting special treatment don't appreciate it. I am not wealthy, but I am more sympathetic with people who make money by creating things than those who gain power and wealth by organizing for the purpose of withholding unskilled labor collectively that should be reasonably interchangeable and freely priced based on merit, supply and demand. In another time, there were abuses of the relationship between those with capital and control over the tools of production, and those without. Today wealth can be created by almost anybody with little need for capital or connections, but it requires, effort, initiative, and hard work. That would be me... I mainly find fault with that characterization... The bad practices that got them (GM and Chrysler) into that hole, were not really fixed, just rolled back a little, while original investors and ownership was scraped off, forced to take the loss. The new owners will have their chance to prove their worth but I am not optimistic about their business plan. This bailout IMO was used to amplify a power shift that had been smothering Detroit for years. The reset with a fresh infusion of capital will not change the direction they are headed. I only find fault with characterizing this as them paying off the loan SIX YEARS earlier than scheduled. Change your headline to they "refinanced" the debt with somebody else SIX YEARS early, and I'm cool. In a political context this may be fodder for arm waving, if you ignore the small print. It has merit from a purely business perspective, but that has been lost to the hyperbole. Lets be careful about conflating those sundry screed I am very outraged by the amount of money and time pissed away in the name of reducing unemployment. From where I sit, business has no more certainty today than they had a couple years ago about whether they can afford to start hiring. What are future employee costs going to be? What is the regulatory environment going to look like? When will they finish fleshing out Dodd-Frank? What is Elizabeth Warren up to? etc ... No amount of "wanting" things to be different can change the reality of the many people upside down in mortgages. Even if we wanted to wave our arms and make everybody whole, there isn't enough money in all the piggy banks everywhere. Delaying foreclosures for people who are way past default is not helping anybody. Just like a simple bankruptcy wouldn't destroy the GM factory, foreclosing on an upside down mortgage, frees that house to be sold to someone else, and frees that former owner, to find a different home they can afford... but they need to take the loss, just like the bank that holds the mortgage will lose (are already losing). Right about now the music wells up and we start blaming wall street for taking the money and running... but if they did, that money would be sitting somewhere... Millions of people pissed away all that easy money and now it's all gone. The longer we refuse to accept that, the longer we will linger in this jobless recovery. You seem to forget our own history... we were the low cost labor stealing jobs from GB and Europe a few hundred years ago. That was the "American" spirit based on circumstances then. The American spirit now is to keep creating wealth by creating value, not desperately trying to hold onto some past easier time. It is worthwhile looking at the history of Europe since several nations there are making compelling examples of how we could end up if we continue our present path.. We don't need high speed rail, and even more government largess... we need to get government out of the way and unshackle the private sector to do what they do best... create wealth, not destroy it. JR PS: Hammer you know I love ya... just can't get down with you on this. [/QUOTE]
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