Column speakers systems

What is everyone thoughts on “column” systems?
They look more versatile than a standard point source box. Would they be a better alternative than a small 1-3 box line array system?


Speakers I’m talking about are: dB tech IG1T, IG2T, IG3T & IG4T; FBT CLA206A & CLA406.2A; RCF NXL24A, NXL44A, T_4A, & TTL6A
Not talking about the stick PA like Bose L1, JBL PRX-One or Turbosound Inspire rigs.
 

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From what I can tell (and marketing aside), those boxes are point-source boxes with dual woofers and so have a bit more height and vertical pattern control to lower frequencies than a single-woofer box. But there's nothing magical about them.

As far as comparing to a "dash" array, you'll get LF pattern control to about the same point or perhaps a bit lower with the tall point-source box (this comes from the heights of the woofer stacks in the array and in the point-source box), but your HF dispersion will likely be taller with the point-source box and you won't have as many high drivers so your peak HF output will be lower. The point-source box will likely be a bit cleaner, however, and will typically be quicker to deploy.

I've used both types of systems, and the real advantage to the "dash" array is that it lets you use more of the same boxes in a larger array for larger jobs. If you aren't planning on needing to put together a 6-8+ box array system, I think point-source boxes are a better choice (easier to deploy, and usually better sound).
 
What is everyone thoughts on “column” systems?
They look more versatile than a standard point source box. Would they be a better alternative than a small 1-3 box line array system?


Speakers I’m talking about are: dB tech IG1T, IG2T, IG3T & IG4T; FBT CLA206A & CLA406.2A; RCF NXL24A, NXL44A, T_4A, & TTL6A
Not talking about the stick PA like Bose L1, JBL PRX-One or Turbosound Inspire rigs.
They are good for what they are. Also they are bad for what they are. They have to be properly deployed and often there is not enough height in the room to do that. I had very bad experiences with expensive K-Array system only because columns had to go on the top of the sub, making the system useless after people populated dance floor in front of the band stand. I had a chance to listen to IG4T, CLA206 & CLA406 and all all RCF speakers. We all know there is no universal solution in our business, different jobs require different speaker systems, but if you plan to invest in column design speakers, you have to know what to expect in return. If you're looking for a small "wedding band" size system I would suggest (for example) 2 x CLA206A over a single 18" sub per side. The system of this size won't compete with small line array in a long distance penetration, but give you decent coverage in wide rooms with up tp 100-300 pips. Go with (for example) 2 x CLA 406A over dual 18" sub per side if you need more power for large rooms.
It's all about return on investment. Think twice (or three times) about the best tools for your application before you buy anything.
 
We picked up an RCF NX-L2A system for the sole purpose of maintaining a desired visual aesthetic while also providing adequate output for small live performances (wedding bands, etc...). If I needed to ground stack something for that size audience (100-200) that had no aesthetic requirement, I would send out the QRX212, it has more horsepower and similar enough pattern control. As Rob states above, these are just skinny point source systems, nothing magic about it. Four identically processed woofers in a line with an hf horn on top, in the case of the NX-L24A. They DO look nice, and they sound good, better than the JBL SRX812p imho, though I don't think they have quite the horsepower of the SRX.
 
If you specifically do NOT want the sound to travel more than fifteen feet, then these are for you. Yes, I’m being facetious, but the stupid little stick looking things are the worst idea in audio I’ve ever seen. A fad, like hula hoops, and Furby dolls. A normal 12” or 15” 2-way will easily outperform them.
The column concept is Low Q, meaning it has no projection. It is a common misconception that the column has less loss per distance. Quite the opposite. The silly small cones in a row have no efficiency, no pattern control, no projection, and no coverage. If you only want to cover your living room, and have money to throw away, then get some of these, get several. But if you actually want a real sound system, use normal passive speakers, with normal power amps. And I prefer the iPad mixers like SoundCraft Ui series, or MACKIE DLseries. Beats the knob mixers everyday.
(And NO speaker is actually a "point source". A cone speaker has a coverage angle of 90° conical. Theoretical point source means spherical radiation in all directions. A row of small cones is just a row of conical patterns, interfering with each other. Not useful at all.)
 
I've been using IG4T's and IG2T's for some time now. The throw is as good if not better than a standard 15 or 12 and horn and should you stack IG4T's or IG2T's the coupling is great. I see no reason to go back to a "standard" box as with subs these work better for me. The light weight and slim design is a plus as well.
Some reading.




Terrible cheap phone camera but you can get the idea.

Sound coming out from a tent.

Two IG4T's and a single sub still sounding good even going through a tent 50? or so feet back.

Single - double IG4T stack in a small venue

I've been using this setup for 4-5 years now with zero issues. Recommended.

Douglas R. Allen
 
I probably should have specified that I’m talking about installed systems in church sanctuaries, school auditoriums, gymnasiums, and stadiums, where we have been getting a rush of calls from unsatisfied customers who are not getting the performance they were promised. I'm not talking about small bands and DJ's where coverage is less demanding. These things are indeed portable, and cute looking. But for coverage in a space where voice intelligibility is critical, they are completely ineffective.
(Photo. Stupid columns 12 feet tall, and can’t hear more than 1/3 of the way back.)
The theory is crackpot. Sound does not work that way. It needs narrow, focused horns targeted to the back of the room.
 

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I probably should have specified that I’m talking about installed systems in church sanctuaries, school auditoriums, gymnasiums, and stadiums, where we have been getting a rush of calls from unsatisfied customers who are not getting the performance they were promised. I'm not talking about small bands and DJ's where coverage is less demanding. These things are indeed portable, and cute looking. But for coverage in a space where voice intelligibility is critical, they are completely ineffective.
(Photo. Stupid columns 12 feet tall, and can’t hear more than 1/3 of the way back.)
The theory is crackpot. Sound does not work that way. It needs narrow, focused horns targeted to the back of the room.
Honestly when the install calls for directivity control, certainly in the horizonal area, columns are often used depending on room. I wonder what kind of "cute" columns you've heard? Gemini's? Low budget ones are, like other types of speaker designs, not the best. When you look into the Db, RCF, TTL6A and not mentioned something like the Danley https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/sbh20lf/ SBH20LF you're in a different market and design all together. The TTL6A is a trucking box! They work as advertised. I wonder who did the install you pictured? Did they do it right? Any speaker not properly setup will not work as designed. Also, I don't think any professional installer would see the list of speakers that Matt mentioned and was interested in would think he was talking about filling school auditoriums, gymnasiums and stadiums. (Maybe I'm wrong) He did say compared to 1 to 3 box line array systems. I can tell you after measuring Db Ingenia IG4T and IG2T with smaart and using them in the field they work as advertised. The theory is not made up. I don't know what was used and if they were properly installed in these "rush of calls from unsatisfied costumers" systems but without measurements and system type and seeing the data on the install it's hard to say.

EDIT: I will say I feel 2 IG4T's or IG3T's per side will fill a good-sized venue in the high school gym/auditorium type event. I'll post a video of 2 IG3Ts a side outside.





TTL6A demo


 
I probably should have specified that I’m talking about installed systems in church sanctuaries, school auditoriums, gymnasiums, and stadiums, where we have been getting a rush of calls from unsatisfied customers who are not getting the performance they were promised. I'm not talking about small bands and DJ's where coverage is less demanding. These things are indeed portable, and cute looking. But for coverage in a space where voice intelligibility is critical, they are completely ineffective.
(Photo. Stupid columns 12 feet tall, and can’t hear more than 1/3 of the way back.)
The theory is crackpot. Sound does not work that way. It needs narrow, focused horns targeted to the back of the room.
Directivity, whether from a cone driver, a horn or an array, is primarily a function of the size of the emitting area relative to the wavelength. And a column speaker system is going to give you very good directivity along the long axis of the column (usually, the vertical axis), and directivity dictated by the driver choice (which is negligible in the case of the small drivers used in most of the narrow columns) along the short axis of the column. This means that they tend to have very wide horizontal dispersion, and relatively narrow vertical dispersion.

The narrow vertical dispersion can help increase the direct to reverberant ratio in tall spaces by reducing the amount of energy that is splattered onto the ceiling and floor, but the wide horizontal dispersion will dump significant energy onto the side walls in narrow spaces, perhaps counteracting the benefits of the vertical directivity. This is likely what is going on in the room you posted a photo of. Like any tool, column loudspeakers need to be used appropriately to get the best results.

There are plenty of examples over multiple decades where appropriately applied column loudspeakers (often digitally steered) have increased speech intelligibility in a space while having minimal architectural impact.
 
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The JBL CBT 70J is especially bad, I have seen (and heard) them in three places. Very, nay, extremely beamy on the highs. Straight out, on axis, like a laser. Move to the side a couple of degrees and the highs are gone. They ended up putting up more speakers on the sides to cover the back and the balcony.
The supposed purpose of the column is wider horizontal spread. However, to reach the back of the room, exactly the opposite is needed. 67E1D38C-5CAE-4DEB-A6B9-560A499CE8A4.jpegNo off the shelf speaker will do this.
The wide angle is like trying to fill a milk bottle with the wide spray nozzle on the garden hose. Most of it misses the target.
The large auditorium with the 12 foot stick speakers is over 100 feet wide and deep, and over 1500 seats. The stick things (brand as yet unknown) sound good enough up close but, with the room full of noisy kids, they do not project to the back at all. • Don’t be misled by absurd claims that a column of small cone speakers has less loss per distance. The column will sound better than a single driver of the same type, but small speakers are inherently inefficient. One or a hundred. Sound loss per distance is not constant, but is relative to Q (directivity). The more directional (narrow), the less is the loss per distance. Hence the term, "long throw".
• It frustrates and angers me when I see so many churches and schools being sold these things, with grand promises, but like "The Emperor's New Clothes" little is delivered.

I hadn’t seen the dB brand. At least they are on the right track with the downward directed horn, and the 2-way, as opposed to the full range, like BOSE, or the dome tweeters of the CBT. Both terrible. 5A9E6B04-2822-45D1-8647-0BFFA19E6155.png
I fail to see the value in cramming it into a narrow box, and the horn is too small to be effective. Looks like an effort to fit into the fad of a skinny looking box. No acoustic reason for it. But at three grand each, they must be good. I’m sure I’ll never know. Nobody around here is crazy enough to spend that much on a speaker.
They don’t give a sensitivity rating, because they are powered, but small cone speakers are inherently inefficient, so even with a lot of power, the output is going to be low.

• We build custom enclosures designed for specific rooms. Churches and schools.
Seldom two alike.
9995C0AA-0EEA-4A06-B0D3-DBA1E46D6D73.jpegDB93EDF4-044A-4C33-B9E6-E3161ABF38E9.jpeg

And for far less money than our competitors are charging for junk.
And far better sounding too.

*** Yes, I know this started with a guy that wasn’t interested in installed systems, but other people will see this too, and I have seen so much of of this junk lately that I just had to vent a little. And they were certainly installed just fine. It’s the crackpot design that’s at fault.
 
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Directivity of high frequencies, the only thing that matters in speech intelligibility, is determined by the horn or tweeter.
The IG4 that you like is 100° x 90°. Which is pretty wide, not very directional.
Q (directivity) by distribution pattern (coverage angles)
Q. Distribution Pattern
2. 180°x180°
2.9. 140°x140°
3.7. 120°x120°
4.3. 110°x110°
5. 100°x100°
6. 90°x90°
8.7. 60°x90°
12.4. 60°x60°
18.3. 60°x40°
26.8. 40°x40°
7E2E053F-A8CE-4582-AA6A-1384D82585FF.jpeg
 
Directivity of high frequencies, the only thing that matters in speech intelligibility, is determined by the horn or tweeter.
The IG4 that you like is 100° x 90°. Which is pretty wide, not very directional.
Q (directivity) by distribution pattern (coverage angles)
Q. Distribution Pattern
2. 180°x180°
2.9. 140°x140°
3.7. 120°x120°
4.3. 110°x110°
5. 100°x100°
6. 90°x90°
8.7. 60°x90°
12.4. 60°x60°
18.3. 60°x40°
26.8. 40°x40°
View attachment 209649
The IG4T is 100 degrees L/R and 20 degrees up and 70 degrees down. As I'm sure you know that on the outer fringes this is not a ruler response. SPL drops at the outside edges and top and bottom of the horn as with all speakers I've measured with Smaart. It is also frequency dependent in relation to horn size. An average 90X45 box is 5 degrees Left and Right less than the IG4T. Also, with the limited 20 degree up this keeps the highs off the ceiling and leaves more energy to go forward and down. It also helps when turning another speaker upside down and placing it on top, so they combine well. When looking at the phase response of 2 combined they couple very well right up to the highest frequencies. The Left/Right coverage in the horn has a tighter pattern at the top and widens out as it covers lower or down. Hard to describe but a tighter pattern on the top gives more spl to reach out and wider pattern in the lower section gives a little less spl so up close it covers more but not as bright for those sitting close. Kind of the best of both worlds. Should you get a chance give one a listen. The balloon plot for them is very well behaved. Even compared to something like a Danley SM80 which are a very respected point source speaker. Good talking with you. Doug
 

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Sound loss per distance is not constant, but is relative to Q (directivity). The more directional (narrow), the less is the loss per distance. Hence the term, "long throw".
Nope. Loss at a given distance is a function of the source size relative to the wavelength. Pat Brown et al do a good job of showing this for linear sources at https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2010/03/17/line-array-limitations/ but the same physics applies for area sources as well

High-Q speaker systems seem to push sound into a room better than low-Q systems because they excite the reverberant field less and increase the direct to reverberant ratio. And in a reverberant space, if you look only at what your SPL meter reads, a low-Q system will usually put more energy at the back of the room due to lack of falloff past the (shorter) critical distance.
 
I probably should have specified that I’m talking about installed systems in church sanctuaries, school auditoriums, gymnasiums, and stadiums, where we have been getting a rush of calls from unsatisfied customers who are not getting the performance they were promised. I'm not talking about small bands and DJ's where coverage is less demanding. These things are indeed portable, and cute looking. But for coverage in a space where voice intelligibility is critical, they are completely ineffective.
(Photo. Stupid columns 12 feet tall, and can’t hear more than 1/3 of the way back.)
The theory is crackpot. Sound does not work that way. It needs narrow, focused horns targeted to the back of the room.

we're not talking about these...
More along the lines of the db Tech IG series, RCF TT_4A & TTL6A style.
 
I should update myself on what I did...

In early January, I placed an order for the newly announced NXL44Amk2 that RCF just announced. It was said the RCF was going to push these into production and get them over to the States within 3-4 months. Well April comes and no speakers yet, I reached out to my Dealer (@Jeffrey Knorr) and blah blah blah, it's been delayed without an ETA. They reached back and gave us a status of whats instock and what's arriving in the next shipment in week, they had NX32A, NX45A, TT22A, TT-4A and TTL6A.

We chatted for a little bit and I bit the bullet and doubled my budget and went with the TTP4A's and purchased 4 of these speakers. I am very happy that Jeff pushed me towards the TT-4's instead of the basic point source box. I do like the versatile of the boxes, if I need wide coverage, I can set the boxes up side by side... and if I need the distance, I can vertically stack/fly them. I am still trying to figure out what sort of "max crowds sizes" that I can work with (this summer I sold myself as a "SRX835 system")
 
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I’m amazed at the views here. There seems some real misunderstanding about columns and point source systems.columns, ever since their inception do one thing. They cover a wider area on the horizontal plane and a narrower one on the vertical. What they have never, ever done, is cover distance without a drop in volume that is very noticeable, but that’s the inverse square law showing it’s teeth. They have NEVER been able to throw. Focussed arrays point the energy where it is needed and the volume doesn’t drop off so much but they don’t do wide. When PA was public address, this phenomena was what every audio company understood so well. In fact most large venue sound solutions used the drop off in level to mask delay. You would (when we did not have any method of delay compensation) put the next column at a point where the last one was too quiet to annoy. People got it wrong really often and ended up with systems that were impossible. The people who got it right used the wide but not tall feature the way it was intended. In a low ceiling, small pub type venue. Columns can work really well, but if the room is deeper, volume difference gets unbalanced. Those plastic 12” boxes so useful for some things fail on others. So do columns. Pretty much you only have those two choices in basic design. I think this problem is why they started doing trapezoid cabinets, widening the effective pattern, but losing the column line array performance, which never really starts to correlate until you have numerous drivers. It’s not a new problem. Slade we’re doing rock and roll to 1000 capacity ballrooms in the 70s with 4x12” WEM columns, 2 a side with 100W to each one. One set turned in a bit, the other straight out. What has changed in nearly 50 year?
 
I see you are looking at an installed system as opposed to portable . I'm not sure where you are, but Yorkville makes a really good stackable line array system that you can fly from the wall or ceiling and I belive can be stacked as many as needed to get the coverage you need . They are affordable in the sense that most of the competition is even more expensive but make no mistake they are not cheap and one would still require adequate sub coverage for the room . I once rented a system for an outdoor gig and it consisted of 2 subs and two FOH speaker enclosures . That set up at the time retailed out at $16,000.00 Canadian . It was an awesome rig .