Compact line array or point source.

S

Steve Ferreira

Sophomore
Jan 12, 2011
189
0
16
Toronto, Canada
Hi everyone,

The company where I work at is looking to purchase a compact line array or possibly a point source system. We already own a Meyer M2D rig and an M1D rig. The problem we are having with the M2Ds is weight. Most of the points here are 1000lbs and the M1Ds don't throw enough. We also have to pay for points to be used. We need a rig for mainly ballrooms. I have been asked to get as much information as possible so that we can sit down and see what will work best for us.

We do have some areas that concern us, such as:
Weight
Cross rentability
Truck pack
Doesn't have to fill riders, but the more acceptable the better
Throw distance 150' ish without delays

We have a budget set aside for this purchase, but if we need to, we can strech it a bit higher if justifiable. The following is what we are looking to purchase:
20x mid/top
4x subs to fly
6-8x dual 18's for ground stacking
All acc and hardware
Powered would be nice but not a deal breaker

The front runners are the following manufacturers

D&D V-series
Martin MLA Compact
Renkus IC square
Meyer JM1P


I mentioned to them JBL Vertec, but with the VTX line being released we are wondering if this line will have a compact box soon and the 4887A discontinued.

Looking for pros and cons, and if you have heard any of these boxes, opinions are very welcome.

Thanks
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

It depends how big the rooms are, what the application is, and how you're able/expected to present the system. For ballrooms I expect to get mostly corporate during weekday morning/afternoons, with special events that have cover bands, DJ's, and/or guest musicians doing an abbreviated set for galas/fundraisers/etc, not necessarily needing a concert system.

That being said, I'm a huge fan of distributed systems with smaller boxes. One of the first things I'll usually suggest is to move away from a line array if it's not going to add an actual benefit. Most of the clients I work with don't want to see the audio, even if there's a big musical act involved.

If I were building inventory from scratch I would look heavily at L'Acoustics; their speakers scale from a 5" coaxial up to large format line arrays with everything you need in between including powered boxes, they have 4 channel amps, custom colors, and are one of the more rider friendly names in the industry.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

I think where weight is concerned, the V-series is a great option. A 12 box hang is just under 1000 lbs. They fly easily and sound great. I'm also a big fan of the MLA system, but as a powered box, it will be heavier (109 lbs for the MLA-C vs 75 lbs for the V). The technology behind MLA is quite impressive though, and the companion DSX sub is also a great box.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

You should definitely consider L'Acoustics. Kara is much cheaper than V, and is also a great box. The downside is its 120 deg horizontal coverage which means in longer throw applications its at a big disadvantage compared to V.

d&b would be my first choice, they have a very complete range of products, including a much bigger range of point source products than L'acoustics. Not to mention they make hands down the best and most rider friendly monitor wedge out there at the moment (the M2).

I would stay away from MLA-C. Is very clever, but in my experience its 'cleverness' only really comes into play when you have complex spaces, which a ballroom really isnt. Its big and heavy, and the platform is still new. I'm also not convinced about Martin's long term liquidity as a company. They tried and failed to sell not too long ago, and as far as I know, nobody has paid full price for an MLA package yet, and they certainly haven't grabbed a big share of the market.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Vertec 4886 was released in late 2009 and has a number of tweaks that the VTX does. It isn't being discontinued anytime soon. The M1D has a peak SPL of 125dB from 60Hz on up. 4886 is 136dB from about 80Hz, and only a couple pounds per box heavier.

According to the calculator, 3 4883 sub modules plus 12 4886 and the fly bar are 637lbs not including cabling, which is in Genie ST-20 land if you need to skip the flypoints altogether.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Don't rule out the d&b Q series. They are the hotel ballroom king. They are a very capable box, and with a 75 degree horn, they have no issues throwing 150'+ feet. They're cheaper than V series, and still have gobs of output. I do like the v-series a lot, but they're 30lbs heavier, and with the extra Q's you can put up, I feel like you get more control/output/coverage with the Q box.

If you've got the budget available, there is no better option than d&b.



Evan
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

The Q1s are amazing speakers, the only problem I have with them is the rigging. The T and V Series have a really great system(especially for hanging) with everything on the box; the Qs have a lot of loose pins and plates. It's not hard, but more inconvenient and if you lose any pieces (like anything else D&B) it's going to be $$$.

Also something to consider is that the Q-Subs aren't cardioid.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Thanks for the replies so far everyone. I don't think we will even look at the MLA-C anymore because of it's weight. Sitting at 109lbs a box isn't really going to give us a long enough array once you factor in motor, bumper, cabling. Also the sub that flies with them is 325lbs.

I've been doing some research on the Karas, d&b, Arcs, and Jm1p's. Hopefully I can also get infront of some of these to have a listen.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Steve Ferreira said:
Thanks for the replies so far everyone. I don't think we will even look at the MLA-C anymore because of it's weight. Sitting at 109lbs a box isn't really going to give us a long enough array once you factor in motor, bumper, cabling. Also the sub that flies with them is 325lbs.

I've been doing some research on the Karas, d&b, Arcs, and Jm1p's. Hopefully I can also get infront of some of these to have a listen.
Click to expand...

Good stuff.

For the size of order you are looking at, make the company work for it. Get the 3 brands there to come in and do you a demo in the config you want. That will let you listen to them all properly, and give you a good idea of what your after-sales support will be like
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Steve Ferreira said:
We do have some areas that concern us, such as:
Weight
Cross rentability
Truck pack
Doesn't have to fill riders, but the more acceptable the better
Throw distance 150' ish without delays

We have a budget set aside for this purchase, but if we need to, we can strech it a bit higher if justifiable. The following is what we are looking to purchase:
20x mid/top
4x subs to fly
6-8x dual 18's for ground stacking
All acc and hardware
Powered would be nice but not a deal breaker

The front runners are the following manufacturers

D&D V-series
Martin MLA Compact
Renkus IC square
Meyer JM1P

Thanks
Click to expand...

Steve,

Prejudices first: I'm friends with the lead system tech of the largest MLA house in the USA, and we've talked about the product extensively over time. I also know Ralph Heinz from RH, though haven't chatted with him recently. I'm also a believer that the deeper the hang, the better, so that increases the importance of lightness. With that in mind, here goes.

MLA is the most advanced PA you can buy today. It also sounds very transparent, and is easy to voice anyway you like. The front to back consistency is spectacular. The software is mature and reasonably polished. You need to do your homework with MLA before gigs to get the maximum performance. I've only interacted with the compact in demo a setting. Biggest impression of it was very clear mids and highs (it uses the baby B&C 0.7" compression drivers up high). It is not particularly small or light given the name.

My IC live exposure was in a demo environment that I feel was too compromised to give a fair judgement of the product. RH also has a lot of beam steering experience.

Can't speak to the Meyer box specifically. MAPP is fantastic tool for realistic predictions, but it has no training wheels.

D&B product is always consistent in performance and voicing. I've not heard the V personally, but I fully expect it to fall in line with Q, J, C, or E series. As a system tech their stuff is always nice to see because it is easier to get multiple zones with different boxes to play nicely together in terms of sounding similar. I know the guys at Fulcrum Acoustic listen to all their boxes together in the same place, and it feels like D&B does the same, given the voicing consistency.

---

Assuming a demo indicates that it has enough LF grunt for the shows you do, I would suggest looking at the JBL 4886 (not 4887). This box surprised me in terms of its capabilities and sound quality. Internally it has most of the upgrades that JBL is now applying in the VTX. It is very compact and has low weight.

---

You are probably not going to make a bad choice at this level, regardless of system choice.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Hi everyone,

First of all I would like to thank everyone for their input and private messages. We haven't made a final decision yet, the powers above me are considering a M'elodie rig since we have so much Meyer gear. I will update as things move along.

Thanks
 
I'm so out of my league here, but for what it's worth, the company I work for has both a M'elodie rig and a d&b v-series rig. The d&b's will throw farther, both boxes are about the same weight, the M'elodies are brighter. However, something I like about the M'elodies is that I can take them to any place with any kind of power and they work there, whereas the d&b's require 3-phase power. This comes in handy in locations that don't have a power disconnect. Been in a lot of ballrooms that don't...
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Chris W said:
I'm so out of my league here, but for what it's worth, the company I work for has both a M'elodie rig and a d&b v-series rig. The d&b's will throw farther, both boxes are about the same weight, the M'elodies are brighter. However, something I like about the M'elodies is that I can take them to any place with any kind of power and they work there, whereas the d&b's require 3-phase power. This comes in handy in locations that don't have a power disconnect. Been in a lot of ballrooms that don't...
Click to expand...

The d&bs needing 3-phase power must be your own doing with the way you've set up your racks? The amps are just single phase (don't know about the new D80 or whatever it's called, but that's not out yet anyway).
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Steve Ferreira said:
Hi everyone,

The company where I work at is looking to purchase a compact line array or possibly a point source system. We already own a Meyer M2D rig and an M1D rig. The problem we are having with the M2Ds is weight. Most of the points here are 1000lbs and the M1Ds don't throw enough. We also have to pay for points to be used. We need a rig for mainly ballrooms. I have been asked to get as much information as possible so that we can sit down and see what will work best for us.

We do have some areas that concern us, such as:
Weight
Cross rentability
Truck pack
Doesn't have to fill riders, but the more acceptable the better
Throw distance 150' ish without delays

We have a budget set aside for this purchase, but if we need to, we can strech it a bit higher if justifiable. The following is what we are looking to purchase:
20x mid/top
4x subs to fly
6-8x dual 18's for ground stacking
All acc and hardware
Powered would be nice but not a deal breaker

The front runners are the following manufacturers

D&D V-series
Martin MLA Compact
Renkus IC square
Meyer JM1P


I mentioned to them JBL Vertec, but with the VTX line being released we are wondering if this line will have a compact box soon and the 4887A discontinued.

Looking for pros and cons, and if you have heard any of these boxes, opinions are very welcome.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Steve,

I know there are many naysayers on this forum, but I believe TVI audio could quote you a system to meet your specs, including # of boxes, for $50K or less (don't hold me to that number, just a guess). The 210's weigh about 75lbs each, they also have a flyable sub, all available powered.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Brandon Blakeney said:
Steve,

I know there are many naysayers on this forum, but I believe TVI audio could quote you a system to meet your specs, including # of boxes, for $50K or less (don't hold me to that number, just a guess). The 210's weigh about 75lbs each, they also have a flyable sub, all available powered.
Click to expand...

How much extra would it cost to take the TVI name off it?
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Chris White II said:
I'm so out of my league here, but for what it's worth, the company I work for has both a M'elodie rig and a d&b v-series rig. The d&b's will throw farther, both boxes are about the same weight, the M'elodies are brighter. However, something I like about the M'elodies is that I can take them to any place with any kind of power and they work there, whereas the d&b's require 3-phase power. This comes in handy in locations that don't have a power disconnect. Been in a lot of ballrooms that don't...
Click to expand...


The D12 racks that I use have a 3-phase L21-20 on the front, the power cables from the amps to the panel are edison though. Most of the time I'd wager the front panel isn't used on them.
 
Re: Compact line array or point source.

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
The d&bs needing 3-phase power must be your own doing with the way you've set up your racks? The amps are just single phase (don't know about the new D80 or whatever it's called, but that's not out yet anyway).
Click to expand...

It seems you're right. We have 3 D12s in a rack with a power/signal distribution unit as well. Never mind.
 
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