Digital layouts for analog guys

[Jeff Hague]

Hey again all!
I have been doing live sound for over 30 years but almost feel like a newb on digital desks. I didn't get my 1st digital console until about 3 years ago - Presonous SL24.
Now I have 2 Soundcraft Performers - a 1 and a 3. I have used them both a few times and can get around them just fine but haven't done anything fancy. Lately, I have the 3 set up on my desk and have been fiddling with all of the things that can be done in the digital realm that really weren't possible on analog consoles - assigning inputs to whatever fader on whatever layer you want, assigning inputs to more than 1 fader for parallel processing or to have separate eq when running monitors from FOH, assigning outputs at will, saving scenes and presets, the list goes on.
1 of my professional new years resolutions for 2015 is to learn and own digital workflows. I am curious how other engineers set up their digital consoles, what kinds of cool things do you do with the advanced features, how you lay out VCAs & mute groups, etc.
Thanks for any input you can give!
Jeff

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

I've found that with the short setup and changeover times I'm typically working with, I find myself using a very "analog" workflow even on digital consoles. Things like keeping the patch 1:1, not using presets, and hardly bothering with mute and other control groups (not really worth setting up for 16 channels...). OTOH, convenience features like scribble strips, channel color coding, tablet mixing, and offline show prep do get used. Also using the console as a system processor for smaller systems (having individual delay and EQ on each output is quite nice) is something I seem to be doing quite a bit, especially with self-powered speakers.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Hi Jeff-

The joy of most digital mixers is the wide latitude with configuration you get, and that's also the downfall.

I can't say my workflow is 100% analog but it's still similar. I only change input patching if something is FUBAR on stage and I can't live with it and they can't fix it up there. Much like getting into the doghouse to repatch something, so I tend to agree with Rob T.

One of the tips is to set channel dynamics thresholds (comp/gate, as appropriate for the input) when you're roughing in the input trim and EQ, but don't engage them until you decide they're needed.

If you have layer splits through your vocals you may want to change input order, putting all your vox on the same layer by skipping inputs or using the soft patch...

I use DCAs and mute groups much like I did in Ye Olde Analogue Dayz, so perhaps others can contribute if they've found some "digital advantage" to either.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

As Tim said, the great advantage to the workflow of a digital mixer is in its ability to be customized for a particular situation.

Setting up the DCA's and mute groups to suit your needs is one of the great features for me. I also really like the ability to use the off-line editor to pre-setup the mixer.

As an example, my band is currently auditioning keyboard players. We didn't have keys before, but it was really nice to sit at home, modify my board setup complete with scribble strips, coloring, channel order, DCA's etc ... so that all I had to do when the people show up for the audition was to simply plug stuff in and adjust levels a little.

This was also really nice for a wedding I did for my niece last fall. I setup the mixer so that I could duck the music on announcements while at home. All I had to do once I setup was to adjust the level of the duck.

If I did mix for more bands than I do (which I currently only do a few times a year ..... other than my own band), I would have a scene for each of them to recall. There are also lots of venues in my area that provide the FOH system (minus the mixer). It is really nice to just walk in and load a scene once we have done the venue before and set everything up.

There are lots of things that could be used inside my mixer..... like the multi-band compressor. I haven't touched it yet since my fear is that I will do more harm than good. Digital mixer to the rescue though! In the next couple of months I will play around with multi-track recordings I make of my band and learn for myself how to use the multi-band compressor well in an environment where I can A/B the sound without screwing up a gig when I do the wrong thing.

The use of multi-track playback through the mixer has become a really great learning tool for me. Being able to isolate a single track, then adjust the channel eq, gate and compressor settings has brought an entirely new level of sound to our band.

Also, the multi-track recordings have provided me with the best sounding demo's and videos we have ever had. I know of many guys that provide their clients with the multi-track recordings as either a paid service, or for free.

Finally, lots of new bands are becoming accustomed to being able to adjust their monitor mix from a smart phone. Some bands are even listing this as a requirement on their riders. Being able to provide this is going to become more the norm than the exception as digital mixing with remote interfaces for monitoring become the norm.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

#1: Don't use all the features. You don't have to use insert just because you have a comp/gate on every input. Use where necessary. Gain, level, highpass, move on. Just as on an analog board.

#2: You don't have to use a DCA/Mute group just because you have them.

#3: It's ok to use subgroups just as you would do on an analog desk, if you like to mix that way. Just don't double-bus anything.

#4: Before loading any plugins of any kind on any desk, ask yourself: What do I want with this plugin, and how will I use it to improve the sound on this particular source. You should probably turn up the vocals instead.

#5: Just because it's digital and has a million features, mixing is still a balancing act. What's more important, the hihat comp, snare bottom gate, tape saturation plugin on the toms or is the lead vocal clear with audible words carefully placed on top of a well balanced mix?

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

#1: Don't use all the features. You don't have to use insert just because you have a comp/gate on every input. Use where necessary. Gain, level, highpass, move on. Just as on an analog board.

#2: You don't have to use a DCA/Mute group just because you have them.

#3: It's ok to use subgroups just as you would do on an analog desk, if you like to mix that way. Just don't double-bus anything.

#4: Before loading any plugins of any kind on any desk, ask yourself: What do I want with this plugin, and how will I use it to improve the sound on this particular source. You should probably turn up the vocals instead.

#5: Just because it's digital and has a million features, mixing is still a balancing act. What's more important, the hihat comp, snare bottom gate, tape saturation plugin on the toms or is the lead vocal clear with audible words carefully placed on top of a well balanced mix?

Indeed. In fact, there is a case to be made that many people get a worse mix on a digital mixer simply because they can't keep their fingers out of the soup! It is so easy to setup compression on a channel, that many people find themselves using compression where none is needed.

Now, I am a strong supporter of the use of gates on the toms and kick. It is hard to mess this up in a destructive way, and it makes a world of difference in the mix IME.

Still, using your example (which I completely agree with), if you have a multi-track recording of the band, you can work with the real FOH setup after hours getting the vocal eq and channel processing down so that you do have a very good clear vocal on top of a well balanced mix .... thus learning what it takes to get the golden mix sound live without having to experiment while live.

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Still, using your example (which I completely agree with), if you have a multi-track recording of the band, you can work with the real FOH setup after hours getting the vocal eq and channel processing down so that you do have a very good clear vocal on top of a well balanced mix .... thus learning what it takes to get the golden mix sound live without having to experiment while live.

Just remember that for most of us, the multitrack recording only tells half the story as there is also a significant of direct sound from instruments that needs to be accounted for in the mix.

 

[Glenn Adams]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

All very good points. I find that I never set an old console up in advance of a show, nor the proc rack other than the speaker system processor and once it had all the configurations in it never again did it see light in the shop.

but with the ability to pre wrench a show I am spending lots more time with it or the software in advance.
It's not a good vs bad thing, just that it is more hours spent that the old systems did not receive.

Lighting is the same. You have to program shows well in advance. No pulling out a dimmer pack and board at the show and setting your matrix and groups, plugging in and go. Now it is hours and hours even if you are a DJ.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Just remember that for most of us, the multitrack recording only tells half the story as there is also a significant of direct sound from instruments that needs to be accounted for in the mix.

Very true. My band may well be more of the exception with vDrums, Kemper guitar, DI bass, and only the lead guitar 2x12 cab covered with a plexiglass shield and mic'ed. Very little stage noise to change the mix from the recorded playback.

While the levels may be off because of the stage noise, it is still useful to adjust the channel strips with the recorded multi-track playback..... but your point is well taken and should be considered by anyone reading my suggestion.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

All very good points. I find that I never set an old console up in advance of a show, nor the proc rack other than the speaker system processor and once it had all the configurations in it never again did it see light in the shop.

but with the ability to pre wrench a show I am spending lots more time with it or the software in advance.
It's not a good vs bad thing, just that it is more hours spent that the old systems did not receive.

Lighting is the same. You have to program shows well in advance. No pulling out a dimmer pack and board at the show and setting your matrix and groups, plugging in and go. Now it is hours and hours even if you are a DJ.

True. Do you believe that the result of this extra work is a better show .... or just more work?

 

[Rob Timmerman]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

True. Do you believe that the result of this extra work is a better show .... or just more work?

Prep work almost always results in a smoother, less stressful, show. I'd argue that's worth it even if the show isn't better.

 

[Doug Johnson]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

I don't tend to prep individual shows ahead of time. I do have several basic show templates set up, and channel presets tailored toward microphone/types and usages. I will usually decide which template I will start with ahead of time. I also once I do a show I save the files, which not only helps should I do that show again, it also adds to my template library.
Doug

 

[Jeff Hague]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

#1: Don't use all the features. You don't have to use insert just because you have a comp/gate on every input. Use where necessary. Gain, level, highpass, move on. Just as on an analog board.

#2: You don't have to use a DCA/Mute group just because you have them.

#3: It's ok to use subgroups just as you would do on an analog desk, if you like to mix that way. Just don't double-bus anything.

#4: Before loading any plugins of any kind on any desk, ask yourself: What do I want with this plugin, and how will I use it to improve the sound on this particular source. You should probably turn up the vocals instead.

#5: Just because it's digital and has a million features, mixing is still a balancing act. What's more important, the hihat comp, snare bottom gate, tape saturation plugin on the toms or is the lead vocal clear with audible words carefully placed on top of a well balanced mix?

I agree - I learned early on even in my analog days that just because I had comps in the rack, only use them when needed.
I am curious though you say to never double bus anything? I have only had the opp to do it once but what I have been playing with is splitting the input to 2 faders on kick, snare, bass, guitars and the lead vocal. This gives me 1 channel with little or no dynamics applied (what Im used to) and a second channel with dynamics so I can A/B them in real time.

 

[Jeff Hague]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

As Tim said, the great advantage to the workflow of a digital mixer is in its ability to be customized for a particular situation.

Setting up the DCA's and mute groups to suit your needs is one of the great features for me. I also really like the ability to use the off-line editor to pre-setup the mixer.

As an example, my band is currently auditioning keyboard players. We didn't have keys before, but it was really nice to sit at home, modify my board setup complete with scribble strips, coloring, channel order, DCA's etc ... so that all I had to do when the people show up for the audition was to simply plug stuff in and adjust levels a little.

This was also really nice for a wedding I did for my niece last fall. I setup the mixer so that I could duck the music on announcements while at home. All I had to do once I setup was to adjust the level of the duck.

If I did mix for more bands than I do (which I currently only do a few times a year ..... other than my own band), I would have a scene for each of them to recall. There are also lots of venues in my area that provide the FOH system (minus the mixer). It is really nice to just walk in and load a scene once we have done the venue before and set everything up.

There are lots of things that could be used inside my mixer..... like the multi-band compressor. I haven't touched it yet since my fear is that I will do more harm than good. Digital mixer to the rescue though! In the next couple of months I will play around with multi-track recordings I make of my band and learn for myself how to use the multi-band compressor well in an environment where I can A/B the sound without screwing up a gig when I do the wrong thing.

The use of multi-track playback through the mixer has become a really great learning tool for me. Being able to isolate a single track, then adjust the channel eq, gate and compressor settings has brought an entirely new level of sound to our band.

Also, the multi-track recordings have provided me with the best sounding demo's and videos we have ever had. I know of many guys that provide their clients with the multi-track recordings as either a paid service, or for free.

Finally, lots of new bands are becoming accustomed to being able to adjust their monitor mix from a smart phone. Some bands are even listing this as a requirement on their riders. Being able to provide this is going to become more the norm than the exception as digital mixing with remote interfaces for monitoring become the norm.

Unfortunately Soundcraft's offline editor for the Si Performers doesnt seem to be quite ready for prime time. I have found a lot of bizarre issues like not being able to assign certain inputs to faders even after being sure they arent already assigned elsewhere. Restarting it sometimes clears that up.

Do you allow folks to adjust their own monitors when using wedges or only if they are on IEMs? I did that with 1 band I worked for regularly and they loved it (and so did I) but they were all on IEMs. I am abit reluctant to try it with wedges.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

I agree - I learned early on even in my analog days that just because I had comps in the rack, only use them when needed.
I am curious though you say to never double bus anything? I have only had the opp to do it once but what I have been playing with is splitting the input to 2 faders on kick, snare, bass, guitars and the lead vocal. This gives me 1 channel with little or no dynamics applied (what Im used to) and a second channel with dynamics so I can A/B them in real time.

That's not what Helge is referring to - he's talking about using ONE input and sending it via 2 signal paths to the same destination (output) at the same time.

An example would be Group Compression, where you assign inputs to L/R AND Group 1/2 (with inserted stereo compressor), the outputs of which are the routed to L/R. The processing latency of the inserted comp would create comb filtering when mixed back in with the directly-routed inputs. You can experiment with this using any music recording or pink noise. Higher up in the digital mixer food chain (Avid VENUE, Midas Pro series, DigiCo, etc) the console software keeps track of processing latency and compensates (delays) signals with less or no processing to phase-match the processed stuff.

When you split a physical input to 2 channels and use only the channel strip processing there is no time difference between them, provided they use the same route to the output(s).

One of the things I had to wrap my head around when moving from analog to digital was that (initially, anyway) it was easier to deal with some of the "oh, by the way...." things in analog and that I needed to prepare better when making physical i/o decisions, whether auxes were pre/post and where the pick off occured, etc when setting up a digital desk. After getting more familiar with individual digital mixers this has become a non-issue but at first it seemed like a really big deal.

I suggest you give a lot of thought to these things when you can spend some pressure-free time behind the desk, i.e. set it up at home and experiment. What happens when you've got all your mix outputs in use and the videographer asks for a send? What do you do when the bride's uncle participates via Skype, and you need a mix-minus feed for him to make the toast, how would you set that up internally in the mixer and then interface with a computer or tablet?

As for player-based monitor mixing, you're right that it can be a double edged sword. It can take a lot of pressure off of you, but you'll receive the blame for any feedback or what happens if a player ends up changing another mix (or the house mix). You still have physical control at the mixer and if it gets really ugly you can kick the player off the network by blocking his MAC address. You still have control.

edit ps. It's still a very good idea to have remote mixing set up even if you don't let the musos have control over it. Being onstage with the players as you set up their mixes is very beneficial.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Tim is correct in his description of double busing except one thing, the Soundcraft Vi-seres does NOT have automatic latency compensation AFAIK.

I tested this a couple of years back on a Vi1 with Smaart, it had a different processing latency on channels going directly to L/R vs those who was routed through a subgroup before they arrived at L/R.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Tim is correct in his description of double busing except one thing, the Soundcraft Vi-seres does NOT have automatic latency compensation AFAIK.

I tested this a couple of years back on a Vi1 with Smaart, it had a different processing latency on channels going directly to L/R vs those who was routed through a subgroup before they arrived at L/R.

That was my recollection but in another post elsewhere, I was scolded and told the Vi did use compensation. I will defer to your Smaart test.

 

[mackerr]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Tim is correct in his description of double busing except one thing, the Soundcraft Vi-seres does NOT have automatic latency compensation AFAIK.

I tested this a couple of years back on a Vi1 with Smaart, it had a different processing latency on channels going directly to L/R vs those who was routed through a subgroup before they arrived at L/R.

Path length is the usual vector for different latency. Most consoles I have used do not change latency with comps or eqs in use or not, but most consoles will have different latency for a signal that goes input to stereo bus vs input to group to stereo bus. I disagree with Tim's earlier assertion that assigning to groups 1&2 and only compressing group 2 is a problem. Routing to stereo and group 2 then to stereo will be a problem whether you use any processing or not.

Mac

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Unfortunately Soundcraft's offline editor for the Si Performers doesnt seem to be quite ready for prime time. I have found a lot of bizarre issues like not being able to assign certain inputs to faders even after being sure they arent already assigned elsewhere. Restarting it sometimes clears that up.

Do you allow folks to adjust their own monitors when using wedges or only if they are on IEMs? I did that with 1 band I worked for regularly and they loved it (and so did I) but they were all on IEMs. I am abit reluctant to try it with wedges.

I let them if they want, but you have to watch and help out if the monitor starts to squeal (which is what I am guessing you are worried about). I warn them at sound check that moving the monitor volume up might cause feedback so they are aware of the issue. Also, I setup a DCA for all monitors so that if there is a squeal, I can quickly lower the volume on all of them without hunting down the culprit at the time of the fire.

IEM's of course would be perfectly safe

 

[Scott Bolt]

Re: Digital layouts for analog guys

Prep work almost always results in a smoother, less stressful, show. I'd argue that's worth it even if the show isn't better.

That is my opinion as well.... plus, I just think it is cool to have all the channel strips named and colored with all the basics setup before hand. I always like to make it a test to see how quickly I can get everything setup and rung out without any issues. When I do have an issue, I modify my process check-list (I am an engineer ... so there must be a process check list ) to eliminate it next time.