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Junior Varsity
Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
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<blockquote data-quote="Steve Kirby" data-source="post: 146235" data-attributes="member: 9411"><p>Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?</p><p></p><p>I think that the biggest issue is that directly on axis at close range a guitar amplifier (especially a distorted or bright country twang) is a pretty nasty beast. Put it in a 50 by 100 room and it will unfortunately sound like that to anyone directly on axis for the first 15 to maybe 25 feet. After that anyone off axis or further back in the room will hear an integration of all the sound coming off the cabinet and room reflections. So 5-10 people (and potentially a microphone) who put themselves in the line of fire will get a sharp nasty sound and everyone else will get what the guitarist was intending (provided they have a clue and know what they are doing). A good guitarist is compensating (I don't like playing with a Fender combo at my feet but I know what will be different about the sound and adjust the expectations at my ears) in what they hear so that what goes into most of the room is what they are trying to achieve. Simple numbers game. Do we cripple the sound or musician so that 5-10 aren't subjected to a harsh sound at the expense of everyone else in the room? Or do we take away the guitarist's control of what they sound like and turn it over to someone who may or may not be familiar with the musician's (the person the audience came to hear) intent so that they can produce their opinion of a good sound into the rest of the room through the PA?</p><p></p><p>The art of micing an amp is getting that room sound that the majority of people heard into a 1/2" aperture right in front of it. Mic positioning and/or channel strip eq become very necessary. I've done enough recording to know what my rig sounds like with the mic in various positions. I've also sat in on other people's rigs and had people sit in on mine enough to be very familiar with how things sound at different distances and angles.</p><p></p><p>Note, all this presumes a certain level of competence and professionalism on the part of the musician. I've seen plenty of guitarists at various levels of gigs with all the classic diseases. Besides outright excessive level the two most common offenses I hear are not turning down when they aren't soloing or playing out front arranged parts. Often driven by needing to drive their amp into distortion to get the sound they heard on a record. I often counsel these folks to have different dirt boxes at different levels or put a volume pedal after the dirt or in the effects loop of their amp. The other is rather than being exceedingly bright is that many people listening to themselves in isolation at home set things up for a "big" or "warm" tone that takes up a lot of sonic space and loses clarity and articulation with the whole band. Which often results in them turning up their level. In a large enough situation, a soundperson can put some cuts in to clean this up. But the guitarist can do this first if they recognize that they are part of an ensemble. Again, professionalism that isn't always there.</p><p></p><p>I have related this before. I recently did a gig where a local hero guitarist (used to tour with a varsity band in the '80s) was a sideman for part of the show, and for one set he brought in a whole other band and they did songs where he sang. That group involved another guitarist who was both loud and muddy sounding. Another long time local icon but without the varsity experience of the first guy to knows to play with a narrower tone. I have to wonder what his objective was as it sounded big and muddy in the small room and he had his amp on the floor at his feet. It must have sounded like no highs at all to him. The problem came when all that mud obliterated the low mids on stage and the vocals sounded really thin and nasal. The singer was pissed. How come his mic didn't sound the way the other singers did when that guy was leading the band. Anything I did only made it worse and I went back to where I had initially set things up. Later in the night we went back to the main line up (I was the main drummer on this gig and couldn't do that much tweaking beyond what you can quickly poke at the Si iPad app) and this guy sang a couple more songs. He turns around after the first one and complains "How come my mic didn't sound like that on my set? What did you change?". I told him I hadn't changed anything but I don't think he believed me. How to tell him that his muddy buddy did him in.</p><p></p><p>My biggest gripe these days in bar gigs is bass players, not guitarists. Bass players who stick their amp in a corner of the stage and go for a big fat sound that just swamps everything below 200. The fundamentals of everything else are overwhelmed and everything sounds bright and thin. That laser beam guitar amp becomes even more obnoxious when the lower end is inaudible. And everyone else will invariable crank up to get what they perceive to be a normal balance with this huge boom smothering the stage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steve Kirby, post: 146235, member: 9411"] Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge? I think that the biggest issue is that directly on axis at close range a guitar amplifier (especially a distorted or bright country twang) is a pretty nasty beast. Put it in a 50 by 100 room and it will unfortunately sound like that to anyone directly on axis for the first 15 to maybe 25 feet. After that anyone off axis or further back in the room will hear an integration of all the sound coming off the cabinet and room reflections. So 5-10 people (and potentially a microphone) who put themselves in the line of fire will get a sharp nasty sound and everyone else will get what the guitarist was intending (provided they have a clue and know what they are doing). A good guitarist is compensating (I don't like playing with a Fender combo at my feet but I know what will be different about the sound and adjust the expectations at my ears) in what they hear so that what goes into most of the room is what they are trying to achieve. Simple numbers game. Do we cripple the sound or musician so that 5-10 aren't subjected to a harsh sound at the expense of everyone else in the room? Or do we take away the guitarist's control of what they sound like and turn it over to someone who may or may not be familiar with the musician's (the person the audience came to hear) intent so that they can produce their opinion of a good sound into the rest of the room through the PA? The art of micing an amp is getting that room sound that the majority of people heard into a 1/2" aperture right in front of it. Mic positioning and/or channel strip eq become very necessary. I've done enough recording to know what my rig sounds like with the mic in various positions. I've also sat in on other people's rigs and had people sit in on mine enough to be very familiar with how things sound at different distances and angles. Note, all this presumes a certain level of competence and professionalism on the part of the musician. I've seen plenty of guitarists at various levels of gigs with all the classic diseases. Besides outright excessive level the two most common offenses I hear are not turning down when they aren't soloing or playing out front arranged parts. Often driven by needing to drive their amp into distortion to get the sound they heard on a record. I often counsel these folks to have different dirt boxes at different levels or put a volume pedal after the dirt or in the effects loop of their amp. The other is rather than being exceedingly bright is that many people listening to themselves in isolation at home set things up for a "big" or "warm" tone that takes up a lot of sonic space and loses clarity and articulation with the whole band. Which often results in them turning up their level. In a large enough situation, a soundperson can put some cuts in to clean this up. But the guitarist can do this first if they recognize that they are part of an ensemble. Again, professionalism that isn't always there. I have related this before. I recently did a gig where a local hero guitarist (used to tour with a varsity band in the '80s) was a sideman for part of the show, and for one set he brought in a whole other band and they did songs where he sang. That group involved another guitarist who was both loud and muddy sounding. Another long time local icon but without the varsity experience of the first guy to knows to play with a narrower tone. I have to wonder what his objective was as it sounded big and muddy in the small room and he had his amp on the floor at his feet. It must have sounded like no highs at all to him. The problem came when all that mud obliterated the low mids on stage and the vocals sounded really thin and nasal. The singer was pissed. How come his mic didn't sound the way the other singers did when that guy was leading the band. Anything I did only made it worse and I went back to where I had initially set things up. Later in the night we went back to the main line up (I was the main drummer on this gig and couldn't do that much tweaking beyond what you can quickly poke at the Si iPad app) and this guy sang a couple more songs. He turns around after the first one and complains "How come my mic didn't sound like that on my set? What did you change?". I told him I hadn't changed anything but I don't think he believed me. How to tell him that his muddy buddy did him in. My biggest gripe these days in bar gigs is bass players, not guitarists. Bass players who stick their amp in a corner of the stage and go for a big fat sound that just swamps everything below 200. The fundamentals of everything else are overwhelmed and everything sounds bright and thin. That laser beam guitar amp becomes even more obnoxious when the lower end is inaudible. And everyone else will invariable crank up to get what they perceive to be a normal balance with this huge boom smothering the stage. [/QUOTE]
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Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
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