Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

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Gordon Brinton

Freshman
Jul 18, 2015
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Near Harrisburg, PA, USA
[FONT=&amp]I generally refuse to put a lot of bass guitar and kick drum in the front line wedges, but I often get demands for electric guitar in there too. I understand if one guitar player wants to hear a second guitar player who is well across the stage. I do give them a little of that. (Or anyone who is plugged in direct without an amp, I know it has to be there,) But I’m talking about the guitar player who has a guitar amp sitting 3 feet behind him wanting to hear his own guitar in his own stage wedge. Do you accommodate them?

EDIT: By the way, I'm talking about electric bands in small clubs, bar gigs, and banquet rooms.
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Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

It's because they're neurotic and deaf. Mostly deaf... and mostly neurotic. I'm serious.

They set themselves up for failure (not hearing clearly) by setting the amp on the floor, pointed at the back of their legs. On another forum we went round and round (some soundmen play guitar, it seems) about why this isn't bad for the player. I still call out bullshit. Players make EQ and level decisions mostly based on what sounds good to them, 6 feet downstage and 5 feet (or more) above their amp. The blistering HF content is never head by them, only the wee bit that can be heard 60 degree or more off-axis of the speaker.

When they get truly deaf they will want it in their wedge, or in situation where they can't turn it up enough to compensate for their hearing loss.

To suggest changing either the location/angle of their amp; or SPL or HF content will get you looks like you've grown a 3rd eye in the middle of your forehead... because they're batshit crazy (ok, the polite word is neurotic) and afraid they'll never get "their tone" back the way it was.

I love the instrument and what can be done with it. I'm much, much less enamoured with many of the players.

Sorry if this isn't much help, but I understand your frustration.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Gordon Brinton said:
I generally refuse to put a lot of bass guitar and kick drum in the front line wedges, but I often get demands for electric guitar in there too. I understand if one guitar player wants to hear a second guitar player who is well across the stage. I do give them a little of that. (Or anyone who is plugged in direct without an amp, I know it has to be there,) But I’m talking about the guitar player who has a guitar amp sitting 3 feet behind him wanting to hear his own guitar in his own stage wedge. Do you accommodate them?

EDIT: By the way, I'm talking about electric bands in small clubs, bar gigs, and banquet rooms.
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If the player has his amp at a reasonable level and pointing out at the audience, asking for some of the mic'd signal in his wedge so that he can hear what his amp sounds like in the audience (and not 60 degrees off-axis) is a perfectly valid request. It's like wanting headphones when you're stuck mixing from behind the stacks.

Now, if the stage volume is already a trainwreck, all bets are off.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Tim McCulloch said:
(some soundmen play guitar, it seems)
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Guilty as charged!

The only time I want MY guitar in MY wedge is if the venue requires extremely low stage volume. I'd prefer not to hear my high notes spewing from a 2" throat horn, thank you very much.

But, if a player has his/her cab isolated so as not to lop off heads in the front row, I don't mind putting their guitar signal in their wedge.

Dave
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

With all due respect, your high notes are most likely "spewing from a 2" throat horn" at the AUDIENCE. Unless, of course, your stage volume is too loud. If that's the case, your high notes (nor any other notes) are most likely going nowhere in the PA.


Dave Pluke said:
Guilty as charged!

The only time I want MY guitar in MY wedge is if the venue requires extremely low stage volume. I'd prefer not to hear my high notes spewing from a 2" throat horn, thank you very much.

But, if a player has his/her cab isolated so as not to lop off heads in the front row, I don't mind putting their guitar signal in their wedge.

Dave
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Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

I will gladly put guitar in the monitor IF in return the guitar player will lower his stage volume. Hey, sometimes it works.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
Whom are you playing for again?
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The whole world, of course ;) .

Mic'd guitar through FOH multi-way systems is not a bad thing. It's just that I prefer to hear a more raw signal coming from (tube) amplifier through (paper cone) guitar speaker when I'm doing the playing.

Dave
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Sure. If it's a situation where they already have their own monitor wedge, why not? I'll sometimes ask for lower amp volume if that's the case, but that's very much a case-by-case scenario. Recently, I had a pedal steel player who was playing through an amp that would start breaking up quickly at medium volumes, which wasn't what he was going for, so I tapped it into the wedge. When it's a really loud band, I'll try to bargain and get the stage volume under control, but I don't push hard. If they aren't willing to work with me after one or two attempts at asking them, it is what it is.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Frederik Rosenkjær said:
Whom are you playing for again?
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BINGO!

This is where nearly every "small room" band fails. It should be about the audience, but it seldom is. It's almost exclusively about each player piling all their gear around them and making it good and loud for their own enjoyment. I get so frustrated when I see good musicians destroy their product, sometimes to the point it's not bearable to be in the room to listen. In the case of guitar cabinets, the coverage is laser like so aiming them at the audience is the worst thing you can do. The coverage is uneven, and often obnoxious.
 
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Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Disclaimer: I'm one of those guitar guys that has ears down by my ankles. All my amps have some kind of JBL and treble knobs are always on 10. I do use a very long guitar cord to tame the ice pick a bit and in a small room the only thing we mic is the kick-snare bass and vocals - rarely the guitar unless we have keys and then everything gets a little out front but NEVER EVER EVER do I want any guitar in my front wedge. Sometimes when a new drummer gets on a bigger stage with a big drum monitor the keyboard player and I will laugh when they start trying to tell the sound person they want guitar in there drum fill! WTF - it's a big open back amp with a JBL - you're gonna hear it everywhere! (even in your ankles)

Anyway - yes I've been on the drivers side of a big outdoor PA and had guys with Marshall half stacks ask for guitar in their wedge. This particular guy was one of those power chord crunchers that had it set to a whisper - had to put him in everything just to hear him - WEIRD.

 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Do vocalists really need themselves in their wedge? The point of monitoring is to hear yourself in relation to the other musicians better. I'd say take it on a case by case basis. For this guitarist, make sure it's pointed as his head and I'd remember that things behind us dont sound the same as what is in front of us. At any rat, the customer is always right - even if they aren't paying you - so if they really want it let them have it, as long as it doesn't cause serious problems.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Max Warasila said:
Do vocalists really need themselves in their wedge? The point of monitoring is to hear yourself in relation to the other musicians better. I'd say take it on a case by case basis. For this guitarist, make sure it's pointed as his head and I'd remember that things behind us dont sound the same as what is in front of us. At any rat, the customer is always right - even if they aren't paying you - so if they really want it let them have it, as long as it doesn't cause serious problems.
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And that's exactly the case, Max... they DO cause serious problems for those of us who are hired to make "MUSIC" come out of the PA for the audience. When a guitarist makes my life hell because I have to mix UP TO HIM in a 3000 seat room there is either serious deafness already in full bloom or serious ego or neurosis also in full bloom.

To then put 3 wedges in front of Mr. Guit-hole at Romulan disruptor levels and watch the rest of band visibly cringe...

I guess I should have taken the "Rockstar 101 Asshole" class in college rather than 4 years of music theory, arranging, ensemble playing, history, etc. because you don't need talent, you just need SPL.
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

WTF does talent have to do with guitar heroism ? The whole point of the Guitar Industrial Complex is to bring the maximum number of buyers, errr players into the market with the maximum investment in electric guitar related toys.

Having bitten that hand that has fed me for the last 35 years or so let me make the observation that there is at play the inescapable fact that rock guitar has relied since the 1950s on some level of feedback between the ampifier and the instrument to achieve the tone and sustain that the genre is based on. This drives the need for SPL plain and simple. There are ways that could achieve this more effectively than a line of Marshalls 20 feet behind the players back but rock guitar is never going to be quiet until rock guitar is no longer a live performance idiom. Actual talent and skill can make this better, it won't make it go away. Just as importantly for most of us the performers are our customers and the customer is always right. You can always go a step further and suggest to your customers that the sound engineer is also a de facto music director and should be listened to in that light. Best of luck with that one.


Tim McCulloch said:
And that's exactly the case, Max... they DO cause serious problems for those of us who are hired to make "MUSIC" come out of the PA for the audience. When a guitarist makes my life hell because I have to mix UP TO HIM in a 3000 seat room there is either serious deafness already in full bloom or serious ego or neurosis also in full bloom.

To then put 3 wedges in front of Mr. Guit-hole at Romulan disruptor levels and watch the rest of band visibly cringe...

I guess I should have taken the "Rockstar 101 Asshole" class in college rather than 4 years of music theory, arranging, ensemble playing, history, etc. because you don't need talent, you just need SPL.
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Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

An experienced guitarist will know what they sound like out front as compared to what they hear on stage. Personally, I hate my guitar coming through wedges. It is disconnected from the actual sound source. It becomes like playing a sampler. An electric guitar is an acoustic instrument comprised of the guitar and the amplification system. That amplification system radiates sound into the acoustic space in many directions with many different sonic components. The cabinet vibrates radiating certain frequencies depending on the wood and construction that the musician has selected. Sound often comes out the back and gets reflected off of something creating a reverberant soundfield. At some point out in front of it all (at least 10-15') it all integrates into a sound. At the close range of a small stage, neither sitting on the floor or on a tilt back stand pointed at the players head bears much relationship to the sound out in the audience. One is dull and the other is excessively bright. The art of micing a guitar amp is to approximate that sound of the rig out in the audience. Typically by going off center on the cone so that the spectral balance is similar to the audience sound. Feeding some of this into sidefill monitors isn't always terrible if it helps the musician recognize what they sound like, but shouldn't be necessary for someone who knows what they are doing.

All that said, there are plenty of folks who come out of Maddison Square Basement and only want to hear themselves shred solos, convincing themselves that they sound exactly like their heroes. And heading right back to the music store if they don't. Like Karaoke "singers" lots of reverb and delay in their monitors probably helps. :roll:
 
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?

Literally the best $20.00 I have ever spent for PA gear was this:
AMP-150_3.png

I have all the guitarists I regularly work with "trained" to put their amps on this stand as soon as they walk on to the stage. It points the amp at their ears (like a wedge) and reduces their stage volume to where I can actually get them into the PA. I use a long gooseneck on top, which also saves a mic stand.

-Mark
 
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