Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
- Thread starter Gordon Brinton
- Start date
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Do you play guitar? There are some who don't connect their hands to their tone who can deal with the unnatural closer range sound of these stupid things, just as some folks can mentally compensate for the muffled sound of their amp on the floor. I can not think of any guitarist who's tone and control of tone that I admire who points their amp at their head. In my book it's a clueless, no-playing (to use one of Miles' terms) soundman thing. If there's too much sound coming off the stage, get plexi baffles. In a pinch I've put guitar cases opened up in front of amps or standing up opened as baffles between the amp and a drummer or keyboard player. I actually have a plexi baffle that comes halfway up the top speaker in my 2-12 cabinet. It's great. Just enough natural sound leaks over the top so that the audience can hear a true representation of the amp and it also funnels some sound up so that it's easier to hear on a short stage. I've also used it with a 1-12 when I've had to stand right on top of the amp and then mic the amp for the audience. By changing the distance from the speaker to the baffle, you can kind of tune the sound so that it sounds good to the musician.
The closest you can get on a short stage to the sound that an amp has out in the room is to put it flat about hip high. The old chair thing works perfectly, albeit not so pro looking. A road case such as you'd find for a Fender combo (except the taller Super Reverbs) is excellent and just about the right height. Although putting the road case behind an open back amp helps give a consistent stage sound to the musician instead of unknown distance, open space, or drapes. I also carry around a small folding canvas sling camp stool. It's also a great height. And with a small combo you can slightly lean the amp back on the sling so it hits you in the hip on a short stage.
Try to "train" me, or any number of great guitarists I know, and you will get an ear full alright. You better be able to take that guitar and make it sing or pro guitarists will just chalk you up as just another controlling amateur who's read too much internet.
Literally the best $20.00 I have ever spent for PA gear was this:
I have all the guitarists I regularly work with "trained" to put their amps on this stand as soon as they walk on to the stage. It points the amp at their ears (like a wedge) and reduces their stage volume to where I can actually get them into the PA. I use a long gooseneck on top, which also saves a mic stand.
-Mark
Do you play guitar? There are some who don't connect their hands to their tone who can deal with the unnatural closer range sound of these stupid things, just as some folks can mentally compensate for the muffled sound of their amp on the floor. I can not think of any guitarist who's tone and control of tone that I admire who points their amp at their head. In my book it's a clueless, no-playing (to use one of Miles' terms) soundman thing. If there's too much sound coming off the stage, get plexi baffles. In a pinch I've put guitar cases opened up in front of amps or standing up opened as baffles between the amp and a drummer or keyboard player. I actually have a plexi baffle that comes halfway up the top speaker in my 2-12 cabinet. It's great. Just enough natural sound leaks over the top so that the audience can hear a true representation of the amp and it also funnels some sound up so that it's easier to hear on a short stage. I've also used it with a 1-12 when I've had to stand right on top of the amp and then mic the amp for the audience. By changing the distance from the speaker to the baffle, you can kind of tune the sound so that it sounds good to the musician.
The closest you can get on a short stage to the sound that an amp has out in the room is to put it flat about hip high. The old chair thing works perfectly, albeit not so pro looking. A road case such as you'd find for a Fender combo (except the taller Super Reverbs) is excellent and just about the right height. Although putting the road case behind an open back amp helps give a consistent stage sound to the musician instead of unknown distance, open space, or drapes. I also carry around a small folding canvas sling camp stool. It's also a great height. And with a small combo you can slightly lean the amp back on the sling so it hits you in the hip on a short stage.
Try to "train" me, or any number of great guitarists I know, and you will get an ear full alright. You better be able to take that guitar and make it sing or pro guitarists will just chalk you up as just another controlling amateur who's read too much internet.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
My original concern with this thread was, too much sound (instrumentation) in the monitors. I was trying to clean them up for the sake of clarity, but guitar beaming is a problem too.
There is not always room for baffles and a dangling cord can easily knock them over.
I think I've tried just about every remedy for guitar-burn in the audience. Raising or tilting it up tends to send too much guitar directly toward the vocal mic. Cross-firing guitar amps seems to work well, but can cause problems for a vocalist standing center stage. I've even seen guitar amps moved in front of the guitarist and tilted up like a floor wedge, but an open-back amp still spews volume into the audience.
I once talked a rock band into turning their guitar amps around, facing them toward the rear wall, (including the bass rig). The reflected sound was dispersed nicely and seemed to eliminate all beaming problems. (Even the bass player said that he could hear his own rig better). The guitar's mid-range and high-end could still be heard and stage volume appeared more under control. It was one of the easiest small club rock shows I had ever mixed because I now had full control of guitar volume in the audience area. As a soundman, I really appreciated the results. But alas, the guitarists didn't like it for reasons they couldn't convey. It seems they just didn't want to let go of conventional methods.
My original concern with this thread was, too much sound (instrumentation) in the monitors. I was trying to clean them up for the sake of clarity, but guitar beaming is a problem too.
There is not always room for baffles and a dangling cord can easily knock them over.
I think I've tried just about every remedy for guitar-burn in the audience. Raising or tilting it up tends to send too much guitar directly toward the vocal mic. Cross-firing guitar amps seems to work well, but can cause problems for a vocalist standing center stage. I've even seen guitar amps moved in front of the guitarist and tilted up like a floor wedge, but an open-back amp still spews volume into the audience.
I once talked a rock band into turning their guitar amps around, facing them toward the rear wall, (including the bass rig). The reflected sound was dispersed nicely and seemed to eliminate all beaming problems. (Even the bass player said that he could hear his own rig better). The guitar's mid-range and high-end could still be heard and stage volume appeared more under control. It was one of the easiest small club rock shows I had ever mixed because I now had full control of guitar volume in the audience area. As a soundman, I really appreciated the results. But alas, the guitarists didn't like it for reasons they couldn't convey. It seems they just didn't want to let go of conventional methods.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Jeff Beck has been known to do that, so, it can't be all bad! Especially in smaller rooms, that can allow for the amp to be run at its "sweet spot" without artificial attenuation. Another potential benefit is that it can negate the need to put guitar in the drummer's (or other players') mix. Closed back cabinets, as already mentioned, are extremely directional.
To continue the name dropping; Prince sets a 4x12 cab at the side of the stage, aiming straight across the front toward his vocal mic.
Dave
Jeff Beck has been known to do that, so, it can't be all bad! Especially in smaller rooms, that can allow for the amp to be run at its "sweet spot" without artificial attenuation. Another potential benefit is that it can negate the need to put guitar in the drummer's (or other players') mix. Closed back cabinets, as already mentioned, are extremely directional.
To continue the name dropping; Prince sets a 4x12 cab at the side of the stage, aiming straight across the front toward his vocal mic.
Dave
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
There are also Beam Blockers which attach to the inside of the grillecloth in the center to block the dust cap beam and disperse the sound a bit. The Bogner Cube has one built into the grille frame. (greatest guitar monitor cabinet I've ever heard. I've seen folks from Steve Vai to Norman Brown use them on stage as what they hear with the rest of Vai's rig being stage props. Although I personally prefer the spread of an open back cabinet, I used a Cube for years in places where I was jammed up agains a draped or carpeted wall)
Turning the amps around depends on what the back wall is. Heavy drapes or carpet will suck a lot of highs and it may be some work to compensate. We're probably talking different musical genres here as turning the amp around mostly makes a difference with closed back cabs of the stack variety used for raunchier stuff. Which also have dispersion patterns that are very narrow due to interference of the 4 drivers (all of Ivan's posts about destructive interference also apply to guitar cabinets). The other thing with such rigs is that they have an excess of bass energy. Which sounds great to some guitarists, in love with that big heavy thump. But also obliterates what the bass player is doing. Probably why metal/rock bass playing has degenerated into just following the root of the guitar chord (other than the occasional Jack Bruce/I wanna be a guitar player guitar riff stuffed in).
The examples of Beck and Prince are actually good. Jeff has amazing tone production in his hands and needs to hear as much as possible the natural sound of his amp. Before his ears got so bad he used to have wedges with guitar speakers in them connected directly to guitar amp heads so that he was enveloped in the natural sound of his rig rather than what a mic picked up and played back though a full range speaker. Prince in contrast (although a fabulous player) uses a very highly processed sound and is a studio rat by nature. He uses devices rather than his fingers to produce his sound. So he doesn't need that direct connection. As long as he can hear the notes he's playing and that the effects he wanted are engaged, he's good. People like that make a recording producer or soundman's life easy as they aren't bothered by being disconnected from their rig. People like Jeff Beck, Robben Ford, Larry Carlton, Michael Landau, the folks I'd rather listen to (and would like to play like in my dreams) do utilize that closed loop between their hands and what they hear in the air.
Sorry for the earlier rant. I just get so tired of non-playing people trying to tell me how I should utilize my instrument. In big festivals, they have pretty much complete control and can do whatever they want, playing "producer" all they want. Although the more they try to do that, the worse things get as we will have already arranged our dynamic cues and if you start jacking faders around it's going to sound bad when someone drops down and then turns up to stick in an arranged line. But in a small venue, where the task is sound "reinforcement" that same arrangement is 90% of what is needed. A bit of fill on instruments to spread the sound out to the other side (although I've never seen a symphony orchestra with basses on the left or both sides so that people over there get the same "balance". Classical music is arranged to make use of spatial counterpoint as well as pitch and timbre) but mostly the task is to "reinforce" those things that acoustically need it. Vocals, horns, some aspects of the drum kit. YMMV
As much as possible I try to keep the front line wedges to vocals only. When I only had 4 monitor mixes my standard was one mix across the front with vocals only, one for the drummer and a separate sidefill mix on each side to feed instruments into. As someone else said, primarily for people to hear the folks on the other side of the stage but I will add some of them if they really want it.
There are also Beam Blockers which attach to the inside of the grillecloth in the center to block the dust cap beam and disperse the sound a bit. The Bogner Cube has one built into the grille frame. (greatest guitar monitor cabinet I've ever heard. I've seen folks from Steve Vai to Norman Brown use them on stage as what they hear with the rest of Vai's rig being stage props. Although I personally prefer the spread of an open back cabinet, I used a Cube for years in places where I was jammed up agains a draped or carpeted wall)
Turning the amps around depends on what the back wall is. Heavy drapes or carpet will suck a lot of highs and it may be some work to compensate. We're probably talking different musical genres here as turning the amp around mostly makes a difference with closed back cabs of the stack variety used for raunchier stuff. Which also have dispersion patterns that are very narrow due to interference of the 4 drivers (all of Ivan's posts about destructive interference also apply to guitar cabinets). The other thing with such rigs is that they have an excess of bass energy. Which sounds great to some guitarists, in love with that big heavy thump. But also obliterates what the bass player is doing. Probably why metal/rock bass playing has degenerated into just following the root of the guitar chord (other than the occasional Jack Bruce/I wanna be a guitar player guitar riff stuffed in).
The examples of Beck and Prince are actually good. Jeff has amazing tone production in his hands and needs to hear as much as possible the natural sound of his amp. Before his ears got so bad he used to have wedges with guitar speakers in them connected directly to guitar amp heads so that he was enveloped in the natural sound of his rig rather than what a mic picked up and played back though a full range speaker. Prince in contrast (although a fabulous player) uses a very highly processed sound and is a studio rat by nature. He uses devices rather than his fingers to produce his sound. So he doesn't need that direct connection. As long as he can hear the notes he's playing and that the effects he wanted are engaged, he's good. People like that make a recording producer or soundman's life easy as they aren't bothered by being disconnected from their rig. People like Jeff Beck, Robben Ford, Larry Carlton, Michael Landau, the folks I'd rather listen to (and would like to play like in my dreams) do utilize that closed loop between their hands and what they hear in the air.
Sorry for the earlier rant. I just get so tired of non-playing people trying to tell me how I should utilize my instrument. In big festivals, they have pretty much complete control and can do whatever they want, playing "producer" all they want. Although the more they try to do that, the worse things get as we will have already arranged our dynamic cues and if you start jacking faders around it's going to sound bad when someone drops down and then turns up to stick in an arranged line. But in a small venue, where the task is sound "reinforcement" that same arrangement is 90% of what is needed. A bit of fill on instruments to spread the sound out to the other side (although I've never seen a symphony orchestra with basses on the left or both sides so that people over there get the same "balance". Classical music is arranged to make use of spatial counterpoint as well as pitch and timbre) but mostly the task is to "reinforce" those things that acoustically need it. Vocals, horns, some aspects of the drum kit. YMMV
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Steve, not to engage or continue a pissing contest, but you are getting at my point - the reason most guitarists put there amps there and make all their tonal/processing decisions is because....
Wait for it......
That's what they've always done, what they've seen done, and there's no changing anything.
I think the actual disconnect between player and instrument is exactly at the speaker sitting on the floor as that is what causes the aural disconnect between what is coming off of the speaker and the player's ears. What you and countless other players have done is rationalize that disconnect - you adjust for whatever sounds right or good to you (and that makes sense). The problem is that almost nobody hears your "sound" that way; not other players on the stage nor much of the audience and certainly not the microphone placed anywhere within 30° of on-axis and <6 feet away.
I suggest that the issue is one of custom and expectation. If you had learned your craft with your amp in a different physical relationship to your ears, you'd still play and sound as you would have anyway. You'd still twist the knobs, apply processing, make decisions about stings & picks & technique, all to get what your looking for. Had this been a more direct path to your ears, come time to play out, the sound heard and created by you is the sound that more people will benefit from in the amplified and IEM'd world. Since any change will be glacial I'll continue to hack away at the guitar strip EQ so what comes out of the PA sounds the way your rig sounds to you. See, I'm a nice guy, mostly.
Steve, not to engage or continue a pissing contest, but you are getting at my point - the reason most guitarists put there amps there and make all their tonal/processing decisions is because....
Wait for it......
That's what they've always done, what they've seen done, and there's no changing anything.
I think the actual disconnect between player and instrument is exactly at the speaker sitting on the floor as that is what causes the aural disconnect between what is coming off of the speaker and the player's ears. What you and countless other players have done is rationalize that disconnect - you adjust for whatever sounds right or good to you (and that makes sense). The problem is that almost nobody hears your "sound" that way; not other players on the stage nor much of the audience and certainly not the microphone placed anywhere within 30° of on-axis and <6 feet away.
I suggest that the issue is one of custom and expectation. If you had learned your craft with your amp in a different physical relationship to your ears, you'd still play and sound as you would have anyway. You'd still twist the knobs, apply processing, make decisions about stings & picks & technique, all to get what your looking for. Had this been a more direct path to your ears, come time to play out, the sound heard and created by you is the sound that more people will benefit from in the amplified and IEM'd world. Since any change will be glacial I'll continue to hack away at the guitar strip EQ so what comes out of the PA sounds the way your rig sounds to you. See, I'm a nice guy, mostly.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
I think that the biggest issue is that directly on axis at close range a guitar amplifier (especially a distorted or bright country twang) is a pretty nasty beast. Put it in a 50 by 100 room and it will unfortunately sound like that to anyone directly on axis for the first 15 to maybe 25 feet. After that anyone off axis or further back in the room will hear an integration of all the sound coming off the cabinet and room reflections. So 5-10 people (and potentially a microphone) who put themselves in the line of fire will get a sharp nasty sound and everyone else will get what the guitarist was intending (provided they have a clue and know what they are doing). A good guitarist is compensating (I don't like playing with a Fender combo at my feet but I know what will be different about the sound and adjust the expectations at my ears) in what they hear so that what goes into most of the room is what they are trying to achieve. Simple numbers game. Do we cripple the sound or musician so that 5-10 aren't subjected to a harsh sound at the expense of everyone else in the room? Or do we take away the guitarist's control of what they sound like and turn it over to someone who may or may not be familiar with the musician's (the person the audience came to hear) intent so that they can produce their opinion of a good sound into the rest of the room through the PA?
The art of micing an amp is getting that room sound that the majority of people heard into a 1/2" aperture right in front of it. Mic positioning and/or channel strip eq become very necessary. I've done enough recording to know what my rig sounds like with the mic in various positions. I've also sat in on other people's rigs and had people sit in on mine enough to be very familiar with how things sound at different distances and angles.
Note, all this presumes a certain level of competence and professionalism on the part of the musician. I've seen plenty of guitarists at various levels of gigs with all the classic diseases. Besides outright excessive level the two most common offenses I hear are not turning down when they aren't soloing or playing out front arranged parts. Often driven by needing to drive their amp into distortion to get the sound they heard on a record. I often counsel these folks to have different dirt boxes at different levels or put a volume pedal after the dirt or in the effects loop of their amp. The other is rather than being exceedingly bright is that many people listening to themselves in isolation at home set things up for a "big" or "warm" tone that takes up a lot of sonic space and loses clarity and articulation with the whole band. Which often results in them turning up their level. In a large enough situation, a soundperson can put some cuts in to clean this up. But the guitarist can do this first if they recognize that they are part of an ensemble. Again, professionalism that isn't always there.
I have related this before. I recently did a gig where a local hero guitarist (used to tour with a varsity band in the '80s) was a sideman for part of the show, and for one set he brought in a whole other band and they did songs where he sang. That group involved another guitarist who was both loud and muddy sounding. Another long time local icon but without the varsity experience of the first guy to knows to play with a narrower tone. I have to wonder what his objective was as it sounded big and muddy in the small room and he had his amp on the floor at his feet. It must have sounded like no highs at all to him. The problem came when all that mud obliterated the low mids on stage and the vocals sounded really thin and nasal. The singer was pissed. How come his mic didn't sound the way the other singers did when that guy was leading the band. Anything I did only made it worse and I went back to where I had initially set things up. Later in the night we went back to the main line up (I was the main drummer on this gig and couldn't do that much tweaking beyond what you can quickly poke at the Si iPad app) and this guy sang a couple more songs. He turns around after the first one and complains "How come my mic didn't sound like that on my set? What did you change?". I told him I hadn't changed anything but I don't think he believed me. How to tell him that his muddy buddy did him in.
My biggest gripe these days in bar gigs is bass players, not guitarists. Bass players who stick their amp in a corner of the stage and go for a big fat sound that just swamps everything below 200. The fundamentals of everything else are overwhelmed and everything sounds bright and thin. That laser beam guitar amp becomes even more obnoxious when the lower end is inaudible. And everyone else will invariable crank up to get what they perceive to be a normal balance with this huge boom smothering the stage.
I think that the biggest issue is that directly on axis at close range a guitar amplifier (especially a distorted or bright country twang) is a pretty nasty beast. Put it in a 50 by 100 room and it will unfortunately sound like that to anyone directly on axis for the first 15 to maybe 25 feet. After that anyone off axis or further back in the room will hear an integration of all the sound coming off the cabinet and room reflections. So 5-10 people (and potentially a microphone) who put themselves in the line of fire will get a sharp nasty sound and everyone else will get what the guitarist was intending (provided they have a clue and know what they are doing). A good guitarist is compensating (I don't like playing with a Fender combo at my feet but I know what will be different about the sound and adjust the expectations at my ears) in what they hear so that what goes into most of the room is what they are trying to achieve. Simple numbers game. Do we cripple the sound or musician so that 5-10 aren't subjected to a harsh sound at the expense of everyone else in the room? Or do we take away the guitarist's control of what they sound like and turn it over to someone who may or may not be familiar with the musician's (the person the audience came to hear) intent so that they can produce their opinion of a good sound into the rest of the room through the PA?
The art of micing an amp is getting that room sound that the majority of people heard into a 1/2" aperture right in front of it. Mic positioning and/or channel strip eq become very necessary. I've done enough recording to know what my rig sounds like with the mic in various positions. I've also sat in on other people's rigs and had people sit in on mine enough to be very familiar with how things sound at different distances and angles.
Note, all this presumes a certain level of competence and professionalism on the part of the musician. I've seen plenty of guitarists at various levels of gigs with all the classic diseases. Besides outright excessive level the two most common offenses I hear are not turning down when they aren't soloing or playing out front arranged parts. Often driven by needing to drive their amp into distortion to get the sound they heard on a record. I often counsel these folks to have different dirt boxes at different levels or put a volume pedal after the dirt or in the effects loop of their amp. The other is rather than being exceedingly bright is that many people listening to themselves in isolation at home set things up for a "big" or "warm" tone that takes up a lot of sonic space and loses clarity and articulation with the whole band. Which often results in them turning up their level. In a large enough situation, a soundperson can put some cuts in to clean this up. But the guitarist can do this first if they recognize that they are part of an ensemble. Again, professionalism that isn't always there.
I have related this before. I recently did a gig where a local hero guitarist (used to tour with a varsity band in the '80s) was a sideman for part of the show, and for one set he brought in a whole other band and they did songs where he sang. That group involved another guitarist who was both loud and muddy sounding. Another long time local icon but without the varsity experience of the first guy to knows to play with a narrower tone. I have to wonder what his objective was as it sounded big and muddy in the small room and he had his amp on the floor at his feet. It must have sounded like no highs at all to him. The problem came when all that mud obliterated the low mids on stage and the vocals sounded really thin and nasal. The singer was pissed. How come his mic didn't sound the way the other singers did when that guy was leading the band. Anything I did only made it worse and I went back to where I had initially set things up. Later in the night we went back to the main line up (I was the main drummer on this gig and couldn't do that much tweaking beyond what you can quickly poke at the Si iPad app) and this guy sang a couple more songs. He turns around after the first one and complains "How come my mic didn't sound like that on my set? What did you change?". I told him I hadn't changed anything but I don't think he believed me. How to tell him that his muddy buddy did him in.
My biggest gripe these days in bar gigs is bass players, not guitarists. Bass players who stick their amp in a corner of the stage and go for a big fat sound that just swamps everything below 200. The fundamentals of everything else are overwhelmed and everything sounds bright and thin. That laser beam guitar amp becomes even more obnoxious when the lower end is inaudible. And everyone else will invariable crank up to get what they perceive to be a normal balance with this huge boom smothering the stage.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
So what happens if he has a vocal mic and moves off to the side?...exactly! Chaos.
Personally, in a club situation...or any situation...I think an amp behind the player facing ANY audience members is far from the best move. Put the amp on the side....the whole band will hear you AND hold you responsible for staying in context with the other players.
Literally the best $20.00 I have ever spent for PA gear was this:
I have all the guitarists I regularly work with "trained" to put their amps on this stand as soon as they walk on to the stage. It points the amp at their ears (like a wedge) and reduces their stage volume to where I can actually get them into the PA. I use a long gooseneck on top, which also saves a mic stand.
-Mark
So what happens if he has a vocal mic and moves off to the side?...exactly! Chaos.
Personally, in a club situation...or any situation...I think an amp behind the player facing ANY audience members is far from the best move. Put the amp on the side....the whole band will hear you AND hold you responsible for staying in context with the other players.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
25 feet out of 100 feet is 1/4 of the room. For large arenas, having a large cabinet creating hot spots on the stage is not affecting the audience significantly. When you get into a smaller room, the musicians need to be far more aware of what their stage volume does to the sound of the room for the audience. The job of the sound provider is to make the sound as good as possible for the entire crowd. Yes, it does mean making sacrifices to come up with the best possible average. In my opinion, it's worth changing the sound a small amount for the back of the room to significantly improve the sound in the front of the room.
Saying that a performer on stage knows what the sound is like out in the room better than someone out in the room is a pretty strong statement. If you don't respect that your sound tech is up to that task, then you won't have a very good working relationship at all.
25 feet out of 100 feet is 1/4 of the room. For large arenas, having a large cabinet creating hot spots on the stage is not affecting the audience significantly. When you get into a smaller room, the musicians need to be far more aware of what their stage volume does to the sound of the room for the audience. The job of the sound provider is to make the sound as good as possible for the entire crowd. Yes, it does mean making sacrifices to come up with the best possible average. In my opinion, it's worth changing the sound a small amount for the back of the room to significantly improve the sound in the front of the room.
Saying that a performer on stage knows what the sound is like out in the room better than someone out in the room is a pretty strong statement. If you don't respect that your sound tech is up to that task, then you won't have a very good working relationship at all.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
If that causes chaos, the amp is too freakin loud. If I cue up a vocal mic and get more guitar than vocal, it's a fail. The real problems start when the amp isn't pointed at the player's head and it's still louder than the vocal in the vocal mic. Whole band yelling for "more vocal, more vocal", yeah sure, let's spread that mess around to all the wedges, too. No winning today, put in the plugs and try to put on a happy face. Congrats, dood, yer tone ROCKS!!
If that causes chaos, the amp is too freakin loud. If I cue up a vocal mic and get more guitar than vocal, it's a fail. The real problems start when the amp isn't pointed at the player's head and it's still louder than the vocal in the vocal mic. Whole band yelling for "more vocal, more vocal", yeah sure, let's spread that mess around to all the wedges, too. No winning today, put in the plugs and try to put on a happy face. Congrats, dood, yer tone ROCKS!!
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Hi Steve:
Sorry you got your panties in such a knot over my use of the word "trained". Educated might have been a better term, but I'm fine with either.
I regularly work with excellent players, and if there is a problem my approach is to work with the players to solve it. If the guitar is too loud, I'll suggest solutions like asking the guitarist if he's interested in putting his amp on a stand or road case, side-washing it to cover the stage and not the audience, explaining to him that the more guitar he will allow me to get into the PA the better it will cover the room (especially to the sides), or whatever will work. There's also turning the amp down and being a team player. I've done too many gigs with the guitarist's amp on the ground, the Guitar fader off on the board, and it's still the loudest thing in the mix.
-Mark
Hi Steve:
Sorry you got your panties in such a knot over my use of the word "trained". Educated might have been a better term, but I'm fine with either.
Yes; it's my first instrument, although my main instrument is drums.
Amp stands don't make the amp any closer, they take a directional device and aim it on axis to the player so that he can hear the actual tone and volume their amp produces. Most guitarists that place their amp on he floor are used to a hi's-rolled-off, muffled sound and don't realise how loud or bright their amps are to most of the audience. I haven't had a guitarist yet who hasn't turned down their amp volume after it has either been placed on a road case or tilted back on an amp stand.
Good thing Miles' quote doesn't apply to me, then. I spent 4 years in Music School at University and College, then spent the next 15 years playing and teaching professionally before getting into live sound, which I done full time for the last 20 years mixing 150+ shows a year. If you'd like to hear my playing, here's a link: https://soundcloud.com/markoakley/little-drummer-boy . I'm playing drums and bass, programmed the piano and brass and also arranged, recorded and mixed it. My daughter is playing flute. You play drums too? Great; why don't you post something you've played on?
Plexi baffles will certainly cut down the sound of the amp to both the guitarist and the audience but will also change the tone the player has (presumably) worked on. Isn't there a simpler solution, like aiming the amp so that the guitarist can actually hear the volume and tone he is producing? Many small combo amps come with swivel side-arms just for this purpose. And I never suggested that the amp be aimed at the guitarist's vocal mic (if he sings). My favorite position would be side-fill.
I regularly work with excellent players, and if there is a problem my approach is to work with the players to solve it. If the guitar is too loud, I'll suggest solutions like asking the guitarist if he's interested in putting his amp on a stand or road case, side-washing it to cover the stage and not the audience, explaining to him that the more guitar he will allow me to get into the PA the better it will cover the room (especially to the sides), or whatever will work. There's also turning the amp down and being a team player. I've done too many gigs with the guitarist's amp on the ground, the Guitar fader off on the board, and it's still the loudest thing in the mix.
Sorry, Steve, but you're coming off as the hot-headed amateur here. I'm responding to real life problems with actual (and obvious) solutions that I've encountered in my 20+ years of live audio as well as 15 years of live playing. Next time be sure you know a persons experience before calling them controlling, amateur, clueless, and non-playing. Real pro's let their work speak for them.
-Mark
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Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Plexi is my normal answer...and EVERY guitarist who has tried it loves it and many have bought their own plexi because of the experience. Creates a sweet spot that the player can retreat to and that can be adjusted by living the glass.
Plexi is my normal answer...and EVERY guitarist who has tried it loves it and many have bought their own plexi because of the experience. Creates a sweet spot that the player can retreat to and that can be adjusted by living the glass.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
The number one problem most live sound engineers at the local level usually face is excessive stage volume. As both a guitar player and working sound engineer with decades in the business, I face this problem nearly every weekend when mixing bands. What is missing with most bands is an understanding of the 'big picture' of live sound. That is, the need to play at a level at which stage volume is not killing the audience, and that all instruments can be put in the house mix and be able to be balanced for the best possible sound delivered to the audience. The original topic of loud monitors or guitar in the monitors is a part of the 'big picture'. Too often, I get bands that play at a level at which they feel the need to fill the entire room with their stage amp volume, as if they are not being mic'd and there is no PA in the room. As most techs know, the normal result of that is nothing is in the house PA mix except vocals and kick drum, and the sound is chaotic for the audience.
As I get older, I tend to be more assertive and try to politely get loud guitar players to either turn down, side wash their amps, or put a road case in front of it, with some guitar then put in their wedge. Other bands I mix regularly do get the 'big picture', and bring in small guitar amps and side wash them or let me shield them. One band I mixed had two guitar players, and they both used small Fender Blues Jr. amps, placed in FRONT of them, facing them like a monitor wedge. Now that is a band that truly understands the mission to obtain a reasonable stage volume along with a well-balanced and full house mix of the performance! Other bands I work with are on in-ears, which is great, since they can play their amps at a lower level, side wash or rear-face them, and there are no stage monitors to contend with.
When I play shows with my own band as the guitar player, I routinely use a small stage amp, and shield it both front and back. Our sound guy loves me, lol. The band also cooperates with stage volume, and we often get compliments on our mixes at shows. I get my 'sound' on stage by listening directly to my amp, then I shield it. I know that the sound I want to put out there is being put out there through the PA. I also put some of my guitar in my wedge. I don't care if it doesn't sound 'exactly' like my amp itself sounds, it is just a reference for me to hear what is going on. I trust that 'my sound' is going out to the PA to the audience, and that is the only thing that I care about.
So yes, the original topic of guitar in the monitors and loud monitors is one part of the overall big picture. The only thing you can do is try to educate people to focus on the 'big picture' and do what you can to get cooperation. The rewarding part is that some nights, you get that cooperation, and it all comes together with a good mix and a happy crowd and venue. That's what keeps up going. : )
The number one problem most live sound engineers at the local level usually face is excessive stage volume. As both a guitar player and working sound engineer with decades in the business, I face this problem nearly every weekend when mixing bands. What is missing with most bands is an understanding of the 'big picture' of live sound. That is, the need to play at a level at which stage volume is not killing the audience, and that all instruments can be put in the house mix and be able to be balanced for the best possible sound delivered to the audience. The original topic of loud monitors or guitar in the monitors is a part of the 'big picture'. Too often, I get bands that play at a level at which they feel the need to fill the entire room with their stage amp volume, as if they are not being mic'd and there is no PA in the room. As most techs know, the normal result of that is nothing is in the house PA mix except vocals and kick drum, and the sound is chaotic for the audience.
As I get older, I tend to be more assertive and try to politely get loud guitar players to either turn down, side wash their amps, or put a road case in front of it, with some guitar then put in their wedge. Other bands I mix regularly do get the 'big picture', and bring in small guitar amps and side wash them or let me shield them. One band I mixed had two guitar players, and they both used small Fender Blues Jr. amps, placed in FRONT of them, facing them like a monitor wedge. Now that is a band that truly understands the mission to obtain a reasonable stage volume along with a well-balanced and full house mix of the performance! Other bands I work with are on in-ears, which is great, since they can play their amps at a lower level, side wash or rear-face them, and there are no stage monitors to contend with.
When I play shows with my own band as the guitar player, I routinely use a small stage amp, and shield it both front and back. Our sound guy loves me, lol. The band also cooperates with stage volume, and we often get compliments on our mixes at shows. I get my 'sound' on stage by listening directly to my amp, then I shield it. I know that the sound I want to put out there is being put out there through the PA. I also put some of my guitar in my wedge. I don't care if it doesn't sound 'exactly' like my amp itself sounds, it is just a reference for me to hear what is going on. I trust that 'my sound' is going out to the PA to the audience, and that is the only thing that I care about.
So yes, the original topic of guitar in the monitors and loud monitors is one part of the overall big picture. The only thing you can do is try to educate people to focus on the 'big picture' and do what you can to get cooperation. The rewarding part is that some nights, you get that cooperation, and it all comes together with a good mix and a happy crowd and venue. That's what keeps up going. : )
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
As a musician, why would I want to hear something different than the audience? Personally I want the audience to hear what I hear.
I've started using the term "stage wash" more often, as a catch all for the bad sound that fights with the PA system. This is a performance, not a practice session for only the musicians.
With any solid PA system, the guitar amp creates tone, while the PA conveys that tone as accurately as possible to the audience. Just like the sound tech shouldn't degrade the tone, the guitar player shouldn't degrade the transfer to the audience.
This is an area where more church system installs, at least in our area, get it and focus on lowering stage wash to improve overall sound. Insistence on high levels of stage wash in my experience is 98% ego or "but that's how we got the dinosaurs to dance, why change now?".
As a musician, why would I want to hear something different than the audience? Personally I want the audience to hear what I hear.
I've started using the term "stage wash" more often, as a catch all for the bad sound that fights with the PA system. This is a performance, not a practice session for only the musicians.
With any solid PA system, the guitar amp creates tone, while the PA conveys that tone as accurately as possible to the audience. Just like the sound tech shouldn't degrade the tone, the guitar player shouldn't degrade the transfer to the audience.
This is an area where more church system installs, at least in our area, get it and focus on lowering stage wash to improve overall sound. Insistence on high levels of stage wash in my experience is 98% ego or "but that's how we got the dinosaurs to dance, why change now?".
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
I don't have a problem with anything in a wedge that makes it work for the artist. If there is a problem with balance or volume we can usually get it worked out at sound check. In the few cases where the stage volume of a particular instrument is way too loud it is not the wedge that is the problem. I had rather have the volume in the wedge than from a forward facing amp for all the obvious reasons.
I don't have a problem with anything in a wedge that makes it work for the artist. If there is a problem with balance or volume we can usually get it worked out at sound check. In the few cases where the stage volume of a particular instrument is way too loud it is not the wedge that is the problem. I had rather have the volume in the wedge than from a forward facing amp for all the obvious reasons.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
A technique I like is to use my guitar amp AS a wedge. I saw Frank Gambale do this several years ago - his guitar speaker cab was placed downstage, tilted back and aimed upwards directly at him, right next to his monitor wedge. This arrangement has a few benefits:
It points the amp at the null of the (presumably directional) vocal mic, if present, rather than at its business end.
It gives the guitarist maximum 'Me' without blasting bandmates or audience.
It aims the icepick at the player, who might then decide to make adjustments to compensate.
It places the amp's controls (if a combo amp) within easy reach to facilitate and encourage those adjustments.
This, of course, assumes there's PA and tech capable of conferring the amp's tone to the audience without any 'direct reinforcement' from the amp itself...
A technique I like is to use my guitar amp AS a wedge. I saw Frank Gambale do this several years ago - his guitar speaker cab was placed downstage, tilted back and aimed upwards directly at him, right next to his monitor wedge. This arrangement has a few benefits:
It points the amp at the null of the (presumably directional) vocal mic, if present, rather than at its business end.
It gives the guitarist maximum 'Me' without blasting bandmates or audience.
It aims the icepick at the player, who might then decide to make adjustments to compensate.
It places the amp's controls (if a combo amp) within easy reach to facilitate and encourage those adjustments.
This, of course, assumes there's PA and tech capable of conferring the amp's tone to the audience without any 'direct reinforcement' from the amp itself...
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
Give that man a cigar!
Give that man a cigar!
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
U
Did this WHENEVER I played...also allows very controlled feedback control.
U
Did this WHENEVER I played...also allows very controlled feedback control.
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
HEY - where is the LIKE-button
HEY - where is the LIKE-button
Re: Do guitar players really need guitar in their own stage wedge?
In small rooms doesn't it always seems to come down to the acoustic drums? Even with good players and a cooperative band that gets it - by the time you have a proper blend of instruments with vocals on top, for most popular styles of music the result simply overpowers small bars and pubs. In retrospect, the few bands I worked with that adapted to electronic drums had almost no trouble with volume on stage or out front.
In small rooms doesn't it always seems to come down to the acoustic drums? Even with good players and a cooperative band that gets it - by the time you have a proper blend of instruments with vocals on top, for most popular styles of music the result simply overpowers small bars and pubs. In retrospect, the few bands I worked with that adapted to electronic drums had almost no trouble with volume on stage or out front.