Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I'd suggest you get a drum kit and take your frustration out on it..........
I'd suggest you get a drum kit and take your frustration out on it..........
Earplugs and loud bands
- Thread starter Rob Spence
- Start date
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
Laconically terse, eloquent, inescapably lucid and cogent!
i.e., entirely out of place in this industry.
Thesauri rock.
Laconically terse, eloquent, inescapably lucid and cogent!
i.e., entirely out of place in this industry.
Thesauri rock.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I Had a walk on monitor mixing gig this past weekend and the drummer was from a well known 70's rock group. He was wearing foam 30db ear plugs and said he could literally not hear ANYTHING in his monitors even though the mix was pretty much maxed out on the meters. After a painfully long soundcheck (just him, the other band members were perfectly happy with their mixes), the FOH guy and I laboriously gated and EQ'd and shifted the wedges around until we got it relatively stable and loud. Show went on fine and everyone was happy with their mix. I think it would have gone way easier if he was on IEM's or pulled the plugs out!
I Had a walk on monitor mixing gig this past weekend and the drummer was from a well known 70's rock group. He was wearing foam 30db ear plugs and said he could literally not hear ANYTHING in his monitors even though the mix was pretty much maxed out on the meters. After a painfully long soundcheck (just him, the other band members were perfectly happy with their mixes), the FOH guy and I laboriously gated and EQ'd and shifted the wedges around until we got it relatively stable and loud. Show went on fine and everyone was happy with their mix. I think it would have gone way easier if he was on IEM's or pulled the plugs out!
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
Since this thread won't die and the cymbal bashers won't die - they're still waiting for me at my next jam around the corner - so I'll just share a little trick I've learned over the years that always seems to get rise out of them. When I'm the suffering as a host guitar player in a blues free-for-all-jam-from-hell and the "drummer" is happily bashing away on the big ride cymbal nearest me I ease back toward it and mute it with my back or arm and look him in the eye with the enough's enough look and they usually catch on that they are absent mindedly bashing for no reason and will usually switch over to the hat. Other times I've been known to just grab the offending ride cymbal with my hand and stop it. Either way seems to work for a few minutes.
Since this thread won't die and the cymbal bashers won't die - they're still waiting for me at my next jam around the corner - so I'll just share a little trick I've learned over the years that always seems to get rise out of them. When I'm the suffering as a host guitar player in a blues free-for-all-jam-from-hell and the "drummer" is happily bashing away on the big ride cymbal nearest me I ease back toward it and mute it with my back or arm and look him in the eye with the enough's enough look and they usually catch on that they are absent mindedly bashing for no reason and will usually switch over to the hat. Other times I've been known to just grab the offending ride cymbal with my hand and stop it. Either way seems to work for a few minutes.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I'm thinking there should be some highly sticky glue-like compound that could be 'accidentally' sprayed on the drum kit to mute it, something akin to silly string.
"Oops, did I just get that all over your 12 crash cymbals!? I'm so sorry...."
I'm thinking there should be some highly sticky glue-like compound that could be 'accidentally' sprayed on the drum kit to mute it, something akin to silly string.
"Oops, did I just get that all over your 12 crash cymbals!? I'm so sorry...."
This last weekend I had a 13 piece 'big band' that played quieter than pretty much all the 4&5 piece bands we get.
+1 on dynamics
The week before we had a rockabilly 4 piece band in. Lead singer with acoustic gtr on a DI to the pa and a cocktail drum kit. Nice quiet stage volume.
A pleasure to mix these folks.
Sent from my iPhone
+1 on dynamics
The week before we had a rockabilly 4 piece band in. Lead singer with acoustic gtr on a DI to the pa and a cocktail drum kit. Nice quiet stage volume.
A pleasure to mix these folks.
Sent from my iPhone
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
It seems to me that the hearing protection lobby of the past 15 years is now paying off. Pete Townshend's testimony got through to a younger generation of rockers. When I played in bands I found that any drummer on an acoustic kit was a little too much for completely bare ears and I wore plugs most of the time. Mind you they were usually 15 db musician type plugs or the lightest foam jobbies I could find. And, I do have to diverge a little from some of the rant attitude here. Although there is a lot to be said about good drummers who know how to play with dynamics, there are sounds from the drum kit (as well as guitar amps) that are only achieved when hit with enough intensity. To get those sounds it's gonna be loud. I ended up filing this issue in the same folder as the automobiles/bicycles/pedestrians conundrum. They don't really work that well together but it's what we have to deal with. Rock bands are loud; sometimes much too loud for the room or the occasion but rock & roll is here to stay. Further, think of this scenario. If the band has one member who insists on playing loud then the rest of the band might have no choice but to turn up to match (and put in their plugs to at least protect their own hearing) and move on with the show. After all, they're in the band to play music, not play politics.
I'm just offering some counterpoint.
To move back to the other side of the aisle.... bands that play too loud are probably the biggest reason that live music isn't more popular.
It seems to me that the hearing protection lobby of the past 15 years is now paying off. Pete Townshend's testimony got through to a younger generation of rockers. When I played in bands I found that any drummer on an acoustic kit was a little too much for completely bare ears and I wore plugs most of the time. Mind you they were usually 15 db musician type plugs or the lightest foam jobbies I could find. And, I do have to diverge a little from some of the rant attitude here. Although there is a lot to be said about good drummers who know how to play with dynamics, there are sounds from the drum kit (as well as guitar amps) that are only achieved when hit with enough intensity. To get those sounds it's gonna be loud. I ended up filing this issue in the same folder as the automobiles/bicycles/pedestrians conundrum. They don't really work that well together but it's what we have to deal with. Rock bands are loud; sometimes much too loud for the room or the occasion but rock & roll is here to stay. Further, think of this scenario. If the band has one member who insists on playing loud then the rest of the band might have no choice but to turn up to match (and put in their plugs to at least protect their own hearing) and move on with the show. After all, they're in the band to play music, not play politics.
I'm just offering some counterpoint.
To move back to the other side of the aisle.... bands that play too loud are probably the biggest reason that live music isn't more popular.
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Re: Earplugs and loud bands
A while ago while doing a show outdoors in a show mobile, which have their own acoustic problems. The instrumentalists show up and plug in and they are very loud. We told them to not try to cover the audience with their amps, let us cover the audience with the sound system that’s what we are there for. So they turned down their amps and had them at a reasonable level.
After the show the band was all thrilled, they were saying they could actually hear everything clearly and it wasn’t too loud. They said they never could hear each other so well as they could that night.
A while ago while doing a show outdoors in a show mobile, which have their own acoustic problems. The instrumentalists show up and plug in and they are very loud. We told them to not try to cover the audience with their amps, let us cover the audience with the sound system that’s what we are there for. So they turned down their amps and had them at a reasonable level.
After the show the band was all thrilled, they were saying they could actually hear everything clearly and it wasn’t too loud. They said they never could hear each other so well as they could that night.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
This is becoming quite the phenomenon over here too.
The musicians are going to music college and are being told to get some proper Earplugs to protect their hearing when playing live and proceed to ask for it to be 15db louder to compensate for the level drop caused by the earplugs in the first place creating the same level as would be without the plugs. I can understand why, long term time stood next to a drummers cymbals = loss in that region of hearing but this is where the move to IEM should be made instead. They are being miss educated out there.
I'm seeing this more and more. Also with the younger engineers wearing plugs and mixing 15 - 20db louder so they can hear it..... Its crazy. Why not just do the sensible thing and TURN IT DOWN to start with.
I've always had the mix philosophy that if its too loud for me its too loud for everyone else and try to reign in the volume levels. and in smaller venues playing the lets remove these instruments form the rig because they are just too loud. I once had a guitarist who was from an old time band have his guitar so loud it hurt..... I mixed the band tidy but quieter underneath but struggled to get the vocals anywhere near..... so I let him be the main person...... people come up to me after the show saying the guitar was way to loud and needed to be turned down. most of them were shocked when I said he wasn't in the PA and I had No control over it. No way was I going to red line the rig to get a over loud painful mix. I had asked him to turn down during the day and was told in no minced words to "F&£* off". I was happy people commented on the bad sound that day.
Ok Rant over lol
This is becoming quite the phenomenon over here too.
The musicians are going to music college and are being told to get some proper Earplugs to protect their hearing when playing live and proceed to ask for it to be 15db louder to compensate for the level drop caused by the earplugs in the first place creating the same level as would be without the plugs. I can understand why, long term time stood next to a drummers cymbals = loss in that region of hearing but this is where the move to IEM should be made instead. They are being miss educated out there.
I'm seeing this more and more. Also with the younger engineers wearing plugs and mixing 15 - 20db louder so they can hear it..... Its crazy. Why not just do the sensible thing and TURN IT DOWN to start with.
I've always had the mix philosophy that if its too loud for me its too loud for everyone else and try to reign in the volume levels. and in smaller venues playing the lets remove these instruments form the rig because they are just too loud. I once had a guitarist who was from an old time band have his guitar so loud it hurt..... I mixed the band tidy but quieter underneath but struggled to get the vocals anywhere near..... so I let him be the main person...... people come up to me after the show saying the guitar was way to loud and needed to be turned down. most of them were shocked when I said he wasn't in the PA and I had No control over it. No way was I going to red line the rig to get a over loud painful mix. I had asked him to turn down during the day and was told in no minced words to "F&£* off". I was happy people commented on the bad sound that day.
Ok Rant over lol
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
It's just sad when the stage volume of a band is louder than house audio. Usually when that happens, I get a recliner, take a seat and read a book with earplugs in until the show is over.
Don't care about refining your sound on stage to sound the best to your audience? Ok. Turn it up and I'll just put vocals through the PA and not let it get beat up. Problem solved! ...
It's just sad when the stage volume of a band is louder than house audio. Usually when that happens, I get a recliner, take a seat and read a book with earplugs in until the show is over.
Don't care about refining your sound on stage to sound the best to your audience? Ok. Turn it up and I'll just put vocals through the PA and not let it get beat up. Problem solved! ...
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
Just a slight tangent - I was mixing (as an audition or interview, so to speak), and we were mixing pretty hot - 97-100dBA at FOH (hotter than I'm used to anyway) - I started to put earplugs in, and I was told no one mixes on his shows with earplugs. Said any time someone mixed with plugs, the mix went south. The other comment he had was if your ears are feeling uncomfortable, that there is something wrong with the mix.
Just a slight tangent - I was mixing (as an audition or interview, so to speak), and we were mixing pretty hot - 97-100dBA at FOH (hotter than I'm used to anyway) - I started to put earplugs in, and I was told no one mixes on his shows with earplugs. Said any time someone mixed with plugs, the mix went south. The other comment he had was if your ears are feeling uncomfortable, that there is something wrong with the mix.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I'm a long time plug-wearer as a bass player, and just finished a 42band-36 hour metal festival as a monitor engineer.
I had plugs in (custom molded -15db) all the time, except during the changeover. I know it's different from doing FOH sound, but if you're doing a 12hour festival you need to rest your ears. Say if a band plays for 45 mins, take the first 5 minutes to get the sound together, then put in your plugs and be careful not to turn everything up. Memorize that sound you had when you first put your plugs in, and try to stay on that balance. If you have good plugs (custom molded with flat filters, not your $0.02 foam plugs) you should be able to keep a balance at a constant level.. Take the plugs out every few minutes to check the level.
I started wearing plugs when I started in my first band. The cymbals just hurt my ears. I don't need to hear myself any louder with plugs than without.. I just need the balance of me vs. everything else on stage to be ok. If I need more me, everything else is too loud.
During the festival, we had a meeting with all the bands each day, explaining to them not to keep their amps too loud, because if they were the FOH guy couldn't do his job properly and their sound would suffer for it.
They were all very understanding, and when each band started to play me or the stage manager would walk over to the guitar/bassists and check their level (and balance between clean/drive) and have the FOH give us the thumbs up/down. When the band was settled in I walked over to my desk and have everyone strum a chord/pluck a note/hit some drums and everyone would tell me if they were hearing enough (to begin with at least)
The festival went great, little to no problem with stage power, monitor feedback. Most of the people said they were experiencing the best sound they ever heard.
Don't give people too much monitors until they've heard how the stage sounds with just their amps (at a level FOH has approved of)
One drummer showed up with a IEM, a microphone cable with a micsplit on the end. He patched his split straight into one of the guitarist's mic for in ear, and asked for a little kick and snare in his monitor.
Wow.. I really got off topic there.. But wearing earplugs is IMO crucial when playing with a drummer playing any kind of rock-ish music. Those cymbals and that snare have a peak volume that ruins your hearing in the long run. Just get decent earplugs, not those foam mufflers that only filter out the high end, leaving you hearing nothing, and mixing with earplugs can be acceptable, to rest your ears, as long as you are aware, and remove them frequently to check if your level is rising.
I'm a long time plug-wearer as a bass player, and just finished a 42band-36 hour metal festival as a monitor engineer.
I had plugs in (custom molded -15db) all the time, except during the changeover. I know it's different from doing FOH sound, but if you're doing a 12hour festival you need to rest your ears. Say if a band plays for 45 mins, take the first 5 minutes to get the sound together, then put in your plugs and be careful not to turn everything up. Memorize that sound you had when you first put your plugs in, and try to stay on that balance. If you have good plugs (custom molded with flat filters, not your $0.02 foam plugs) you should be able to keep a balance at a constant level.. Take the plugs out every few minutes to check the level.
I started wearing plugs when I started in my first band. The cymbals just hurt my ears. I don't need to hear myself any louder with plugs than without.. I just need the balance of me vs. everything else on stage to be ok. If I need more me, everything else is too loud.
During the festival, we had a meeting with all the bands each day, explaining to them not to keep their amps too loud, because if they were the FOH guy couldn't do his job properly and their sound would suffer for it.
They were all very understanding, and when each band started to play me or the stage manager would walk over to the guitar/bassists and check their level (and balance between clean/drive) and have the FOH give us the thumbs up/down. When the band was settled in I walked over to my desk and have everyone strum a chord/pluck a note/hit some drums and everyone would tell me if they were hearing enough (to begin with at least)
The festival went great, little to no problem with stage power, monitor feedback. Most of the people said they were experiencing the best sound they ever heard.
Don't give people too much monitors until they've heard how the stage sounds with just their amps (at a level FOH has approved of)
One drummer showed up with a IEM, a microphone cable with a micsplit on the end. He patched his split straight into one of the guitarist's mic for in ear, and asked for a little kick and snare in his monitor.
Wow.. I really got off topic there.. But wearing earplugs is IMO crucial when playing with a drummer playing any kind of rock-ish music. Those cymbals and that snare have a peak volume that ruins your hearing in the long run. Just get decent earplugs, not those foam mufflers that only filter out the high end, leaving you hearing nothing, and mixing with earplugs can be acceptable, to rest your ears, as long as you are aware, and remove them frequently to check if your level is rising.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I just put up a post on my rarely used FB page regarding this insanity. It was triggered by a musician's post about quitting a band because they are too loud. What really drives me crazy are the excuses given for big foam plugs (there's too much high end, cymbals are killing me) and amps pointed at the back of their knees (it's too bright when it's pointed at my ears). Well, the audience isn't stuffing an inch of foam in their ears and they (and I) hear your band as it actually is, not with 30dB less high end and cymbal wash. If I was smart enough to figure out how to redact names, I would love to put this thread up on FB. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the effort anyways, as all of our complaints, comments and suggestions are falling on deaf ears.
I just put up a post on my rarely used FB page regarding this insanity. It was triggered by a musician's post about quitting a band because they are too loud. What really drives me crazy are the excuses given for big foam plugs (there's too much high end, cymbals are killing me) and amps pointed at the back of their knees (it's too bright when it's pointed at my ears). Well, the audience isn't stuffing an inch of foam in their ears and they (and I) hear your band as it actually is, not with 30dB less high end and cymbal wash. If I was smart enough to figure out how to redact names, I would love to put this thread up on FB. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth the effort anyways, as all of our complaints, comments and suggestions are falling on deaf ears.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
Nah, the deaf ears belong to those who don't wear earplugs. These complaints are falling on plugged ears.
Nah, the deaf ears belong to those who don't wear earplugs. These complaints are falling on plugged ears.
Re: Earplugs and loud bands
I used to do the putting plugs in once I got the wedges sorted. but I found when taking them out my ears had adjusted themselves and really brightened up everything I was hearing to compensate and wound up with major headaches from it. Aswell as not being able to judge frequencies or hear any low level feedback ringing. The best move I made was over to IEM. custom mould gave me a nice seal and I could turn down the mix level. Even when doing wedges I will set them up then revert to my IEM lets you hear what is actually going on and hear any feedback that is just happening that you would otherwise miss with plugs in.
I used to do the putting plugs in once I got the wedges sorted. but I found when taking them out my ears had adjusted themselves and really brightened up everything I was hearing to compensate and wound up with major headaches from it. Aswell as not being able to judge frequencies or hear any low level feedback ringing. The best move I made was over to IEM. custom mould gave me a nice seal and I could turn down the mix level. Even when doing wedges I will set them up then revert to my IEM lets you hear what is actually going on and hear any feedback that is just happening that you would otherwise miss with plugs in.