Ebtech HumX

Jay Barracato

Graduate Student
Jan 11, 2011
1,528
4
38
Solomons MD
I picked up one of the ebtech HumX plug units for emergency use. Looking at it closer the first thing I noticed was that it is not UL listed. The second thing that made me wonder is that it is limited to 6 amps.

How does a device that has 15 amp female joined to a 15 amp male get away without any type of over current protection (fuses etc.) if the potential for running 15 amps through it exists just by plugging it in? Is this why it is not UL listed?
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

I had a discussion with Bill Whitlock about this device, master of all things electric in audio. Basically what going on inside is that there is a pair of silicone diodes in parallel but in opposite directions between the ground in & out. During normal use, the diodes don't conduct current until 600mV of juice is presented to them. So the ground 'looks' open to potential ground loop currents. When there's a fault, the diodes close the circuit and pass the current. The problem, according to Bill, is that the diodes need to be able to conduct huge amounts of current during a fault until the breaker trips. In order to be totally reliable or close to it, he said the diodes would need to be the size of hockey pucks. The ones in there appear to be rated at around 5A which makes them a very risky thing to bet your life on in the event of an actual fault. There's a high likelihood they could vaporize before the over-current protection kicks in. The chance of getting a UL listing on those things is slim to none. And of course, they don't really solve the source of the problem. Just a bandaid, and a potentially dangerous one at that.

FWIW, Bill is using this device as a slide in his current seminars on grounding as how not to do things.

Greg

Cu
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

Greg,

That is basically what I was thinking. I have a series of shows in an ancient hotel that has absolutely horrible power. I had significant hum and hiss and I was unable to break it up using traditional ground lifts on the XLR's or by changing circuits. I am heading back there this weekend, and I had hoped that this was a workable patch, but it may be heading for the pile of "good idea, poorly executed".

I am a very short piece from simply putting a generator in the courtyard there in the future.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

I had a discussion with Bill Whitlock about this device, master of all things electric in audio. Basically what going on inside is that there is a pair of silicone diodes in parallel but in opposite directions between the ground in & out. During normal use, the diodes don't conduct current until 600mV of juice is presented to them. So the ground 'looks' open to potential ground loop currents. When there's a fault, the diodes close the circuit and pass the current. The problem, according to Bill, is that the diodes need to be able to conduct huge amounts of current during a fault until the breaker trips. In order to be totally reliable or close to it, he said the diodes would need to be the size of hockey pucks. The ones in there appear to be rated at around 5A which makes them a very risky thing to bet your life on in the event of an actual fault. There's a high likelihood they could vaporize before the over-current protection kicks in. The chance of getting a UL listing on those things is slim to none. And of course, they don't really solve the source of the problem. Just a bandaid, and a potentially dangerous one at that.

FWIW, Bill is using this device as a slide in his current seminars on grounding as how not to do things.

Greg

Cu

It seems I've told this story before so stop me if you've heard it...

Back in the '80s I used the diode trick, to reduce some ground noise between rack mount products due to a path between chassis and the rack rails. For safety ground bonding you need to accommodate enough ground current to trip a fuse or breaker.

One thing that isn't obvious to casual observers is how diodes fail... When diodes get too much current, resulting in too much heat, they melt and fail as a dead short... but wait, a dead short between the two grounds is exactly what we want in a fault condition, and once the diode fails as a dead short, the power dissipation drops dramatically. So the magic to making this work, is to use a diode robust enough that it can handle the initial heat pulse without mechanical failure since the heat after it shorts out is very much reduced.

The bottom line is you can't just use some tiny signal diodes since they will vaporize when hit with 50-100a (I know, I did that on the bench), but using something more substantial like a power supply diode bridge, with some more thermal mass to handle the initial transient, and even a heat sink on the larger power bridges. is suitably robust to take out every breaker I ever tested it on. Of course after it shorts you no longer have a floating ground, but safety bonding is preserved.

Later when I was working at Peavey and able to communicate with UL using other people's money, I had our in-house guy ask UL what they thought about the diode scheme (using real diodes). They did some preliminary bench tests and confirmed that it worked like I said, but to formally approve it, they would want something like $10k or more to set up a case file with a bunch of proof of concept tests with full documentation, specifying approved parts for this application, etc..

By then I'd figured out that you don't really need to float a ground if your differentials are set up properly so we never pursued it further, but UL was not discouraging us.

If Ebtech is indeed using small signal diodes, YOU DO NOT HAVE A SAFTEY GROUND, that will pass ground bonding (50a), and protect you, so walk away.

You could roll your own using a relatively inexpensive power supply diode bridge, but I am not suggesting that, since you won't have UL (or me) sitting with you in court.

Using properly designed gear, you don't need to game the safety grounds.

JR

PS: I think I contacted EBtech the last time this came up and told them how they might pursue UL approval. I suspect they are a small company and playing the odds that they don't kill anybody. They may not have room in their current unit to fit a large enough diode bridge.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

Are you powering the mix position and the amps from the same circuits? I am careful to provide power for the backline from the same place as I get the rest of my power and am careful to make sure they are all grounded together. Perhaps if you used a PMD (Poor Mans Distro) or a real distro to bond all the grounds you would not need a work around?
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

Rob,

This is a small lounge with an acoustic act. Everything (2K10's for FOH, bass amp, and FOH rack) was run off of 1 20 amp circuit. Changing which circuit I used did not make a complete difference, some were better than others, but none were great. The odd thing was that the system was quiet until I patched the mics. My working hypothesis is that something in the power was causing flucuations in the phantom power from the board. Last time I did not run my separate monitor board, this time I am going to try to see if the splitter helps. I may end up moving the hiss to the IEMS but leaving FOH clean.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

Discussing the HumX with Bill Whitlock some years ago I recall his mentioning pretty much the same points that Jay and JR offered, that the HumX is not UL listed and appears as though it could fail in such a manner as to not provide the desired safety ground path. Apparently not necessarily a bad concept, just not necessarily a good implementation.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

I am not using any RF and all my equipment is balanced. I will try to find out if the hotel is using anything other than wi fi.

I have been in places with funky wiring and close proximity to broadcast transmitters where it seemed the building electrical acted as an antenna for RF noise. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

I am not using any RF and all my equipment is balanced. I will try to find out if the hotel is using anything other than wi fi.

I've with Brad and JR... I think there are other issues at play and consider non-audio RF to be a possibility. We've all got stories about Mackie's VLZ mixer demodulating broadcast radio, but not every RF issue presents itself with intelligible audio as a result. Is there strong environmental RF (broadcast transmitters nearby, mobile repeaters on the building roof, nearby military installation or airport) that could be getting into a piece of gear or cable?

On the power side, I'd look for current as well as voltage between neutral and ground.

I'd also start my trouble shooting at the gig itself by setting up the absolute minimal equipment it takes to make audio (1 mic, 1 mixer out, 1 amp or powered speaker...) and add in thing 1 at a time. You're experienced in this, I know, but it might take a more excruciating level of detail to find the potential multiple causes of the problems in this venue.

Let us know what you find.

Tim Mc
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

I have been in places with funky wiring and close proximity to broadcast transmitters where it seemed the building electrical acted as an antenna for RF noise. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time.
Dick - were you in my house when I was (and still am to some degree) trying to get AM1500 out of my little system? I live about 4 miles from a 50,000 watt AM station and the following devices I own rectify this particular radio station when plugged into two particular circuits in my (brand new and correctly wired) house:
DBX Driverack PA
DBX Driverack 260
Roland KB300 keyboard amp
My MacBook Pro + MixWizard + Mackie HR824s (haven't figured out the magic sauce here)

Things that do not rectify audio when used in the same situation as the above:
Yamaha 01v96
EAW UX8800
Basically any other input source

I solved the most onerous problem with a bunch of turns (7 I believe) of wire around a couple low-frequency ferrites. Other than moving, I haven't figured out a perfect solution, and I haven't figured out why it's these particular circuits that are the issue - one of them is very close to the power box, the other is much longer.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

TJ....

This was on the south side of the 'Cities doing some audio to video gigs for a couple of Apple Valley church programs. I forget the station, but it was a fairly small transmitter.

DR
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

Final report-

I am suspecting that I was hearing both ground loop hum and some type of rf interference.

On Friday, the bass amp plugged into the wall with a single cable plugged in (no instrument) had a definite ground loop. This was before any of the rest of the system was plugged in. The Hum X did stop the hum, but I did not leave it in place for the show. As far as I can tell the device can tolerate 6 amps on the ground circuit. To me that means the device will fail by opening and removing the ground before the 15 amp breaker will trip. This seems to be a repeat of what Greg and Bennett have said about this product.

Looking at the building there are 4 actual interconnected structures that have been added at different times. I am not sure if they have a single service or multiple service, but I would hypothesis that if they have multiple services the grounds are at different potentials. A secondary hypothesis is that the performance room is actually next to the service/utility room for the hotel. During the day at setup time I could hear washers/dryers etc. running. I would suspect something may have been dumping to ground back there. This was a fairly basic setup. One power stringer to SL ran one powered speaker, the bass amp, and a couple of fishman aura pedals. A second power stringer to SR ran a second powered speaker, one mix wiz for FOH and a second mix wiz for monitors. I used XLR ground lifts to isolate the ground for the FOH board and powered speakers, and I used the ground lifts on the split to isolate FOH from monitors. In addition, the bass amp was isolated with the ground lift on the DI. Each piece of powered equipment only had 1 path to the same ground through its power supply.

This left a gentle hiss. The best I can describe the sound is like an old guitar tube amp idling once the tubes are starting to degrade. The really odd thing is that the system was silent when set up but as soon as the cables for the stage were plugged in the hiss started. On Friday, by show time the hiss was down to unnoticable (lower than the background sound in the room).

On Saturday, I set up basically the same way except I dug deeper through my cable box and used all the quad cables I could.On Saturday i was setting up later in the day. By time I was setup the hiss was even lower than on Friday.

I am not sure if I can attribute the change from Friday to Saturday just to the change in cables. It may be that the source of both of the noises was reduced or stopped by time I was setup on Sat.

For Fridays show we had more people than they have ever had at one of these events before, and while Saturday started slower, we had a good crowd by the second set and the venue made it's money at the bar. The management is extremely happy with the job the band and I did, and we are already scheduled to be back there basically one weekend a month until Nov.

There is some sort of transmitter as well as a cell tower on a hill about 3 miles form the venue and a small airport about 3 miles in the other direction. Next time I am down there I will look for other closer sources of RF and see if I can figure out where the main power service(s) for the building are.
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

While we are still guessing about the actual problem, star ground is in fact not helpful in a high RF environment, since the inductance of long telescoped grounds are not low impedance at RF. In that case wither a hybrid ground (where multiple grounds are grabbed using capacitor shunts (short at RF, open at hum freq), or just brute force multiple grounds in parallel.

Note: the evils of ground loops, or common ground conduction, are overstated, as long as modern gear with proper pin 1 treatment is used.

JR
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

On Friday, the bass amp plugged into the wall with a single cable plugged in (no instrument) had a definite ground loop.

By definition, you cannot have an ac ground loop when there is only one connected ground. Two or more ground paths are required for a ground loop to occur, hence the term "loop". One cannot have a loop if there's a break/missing piece in the loop ;) It is telling though that you are getting noise in the amp when nothing but power is plugged in. I would start looking for an ac wiring fault like a ground/neutral swap. These can't be found with an outlet tester, it requires physical inspection since neutral and ground are (supposed to be) bonded at the service entrance. It also possible that they're bonded in more than one place at sub panels (unfortunately).

It's also possible there's a fault in the amp where some current is getting shunted to ground and causing noise. You're not using any kind of MOV based surge protector strips are you? Make sure those are all out of the chain, Furman or similar devices included.

Greg
 
Re: Ebtech HumX

By definition, you cannot have an ac ground loop when there is only one connected ground. Two or more ground paths are required for a ground loop to occur, hence the term "loop". One cannot have a loop if there's a break/missing piece in the loop ;) It is telling though that you are getting noise in the amp when nothing but power is plugged in. I would start looking for an ac wiring fault like a ground/neutral swap. These can't be found with an outlet tester, it requires physical inspection since neutral and ground are (supposed to be) bonded at the service entrance. It also possible that they're bonded in more than one place at sub panels (unfortunately).

It's also possible there's a fault in the amp where some current is getting shunted to ground and causing noise. You're not using any kind of MOV based surge protector strips are you? Make sure those are all out of the chain, Furman or similar devices included.

Greg

Greg, No MOV's anywhere in my setup. The result with the bass amp seems to tell me that the loop is somewhere in the buildings wiring, especially if the Hum X stopped it for the short time I plugged that in. It is also my amp that I use at most of my shows, so I know how it usually performs. I thought about testing with a meter but this time I did not have the house electrician present, and I did not want to be popping circuits on purpose without knowing what else is on them. The same goes for pulling outlets out of the wall.

For all I know the flourescent lights back in the kitchen/laundry area are dumping to ground and they have multiple ground paths (maybe through wire and conduit).

Any ways it is not my job to fix their problems, at this point I believe for future shows I can control the problems and keep them under the level of the background noise (without having to use the HumX). If it turns out to be uncontrollable, it would be easier for me just to drop a honda generator outside of one of the windows.