Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

[Rob Gow]

I've been waiting, and wanting this mixer since last November. Since my current mixer was a powered board, I needed a power amp for FOH, along with another one or two for individual monitor mixes, as well as a new 100' 24x8 snake. So I slowly started picking up the pieces of the puzzle, one by one, instead of buying it all at once. Finally, the time was right, and I brought my old board in, to trade it in on a StudioLive 24.4.2 it took a couple weeks for it to arrive, and the store was cool with me using my board until it arrived, and that's when we would do the actual trade in.

Picked up the mixer last Friday. Saturday was a 2 day event, with 5 bands each day. Sink or swim baby!!! I was able to ditch the racks, bringing only the power-amps. Outdoor gig. Rained a bunch. Used the towns FOH instead of mine. Rained all day the first day. I was in an enclosed tent, along with another tarp inside, above me, and another to cover the board as well. Man I love mixing on it. As you can see I didn't use all the channels by a long shot, but it's nice to have them. The town had 1000w Yorkville elite speakers. Not quite as nice as my Unity15's over LS800p's but easier to drag back an forth in the rain.

Love the multiple monitor mixes, just had a basic reverb and delay for effects. Didn't get any time with the board Friday, as I was wiring up my patchbay... But yeah, everything went well!! People were impressed with the speed of soundchecks, and the performance of the mixer. Now I have a bit of time to go through effects, play with the gates etc. Didn't try hooking up the Mac Mini to record etc. My next gig is July 9, so it will be the full meal deal by then!!

I did run through the UPS I bought.

But for going in blind, aside from watching videos on YouTube, I found the board VERY intuitive. The last band, a metal band that I've done sound for, really shone. I always had issues with the one of the two singers, just hard to EQ before. I was able to dial him right in, and got compliments from people who have heard the band before.

I know it's not an LS-9, 5D or M7, but for me I think it will be a great fit!

Usual setup:

Old mixer & rack:

The SL

I used to drag these to all the gigs...

The only rack I used, was power for the monitors (bottom amp, a QSC CX404: 4x250W @ 8ohms)

My handiwork with the patch panel (hey, I worked hard on it )

Looking forward to using an iPad to set up the mix in my band. We mix from the stage for smaller gigs, so it used to be back and forth, back and forth. Go out front, listen to the kick, go back and adjust. Back and forth, back and forth, for each channel. It will be nice to set that all up from out front.

I don't do rider compliant shows, I do house sound for a couple small bars, so as others bemoan about what this board can't do, I'll be using what it CAN do, to mix 6-8 shows a month.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

The SL

Rob...

Don't want to pick nits, but you'll find you'll get a much cleaner sound if you don't overdrive your channels and use more from the master section. Looking at the meters in the pic, the individual channels are WAY over-amped and your master faders are running low, yet you're still hitting close to max on the master meters.

That's not good gain structure, brother. But for the first time out with the board probably not bad. It does take some getting used to.

Edit:

Just noticed the double bussing on the selected channel.......

 

[Rob Gow]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Rob...

Don't want to pick nits, but you'll find you'll get a much cleaner sound if you don't overdrive your channels and use more from the master section. Looking at the meters in the pic, the individual channels are WAY over-amped and your master faders are running low, yet you're still hitting close to max on the master meters.

That's not good gain structure, brother. But for the first time out with the board probably not bad. It does take some getting used to.

Edit:

Just noticed the double bussing on the selected channel.......

I have a bad habit of trying to sneak the mains down, then th channels end up going up. This next show on the 9th, I'm going to set the mains at around -16, (enough headroom for transients) then the mains at unity. Then I'll mix with the faders. I used to set each channel at unity, and then set the beginning mix with the gains, which I realize is wrong. It was a bad habit that worked well for me with my old board, but I want to do things properly, so for this next show, I'll put that into practice...

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I run the input gain around -15 on the meters, the channel output ends up being close to that for a benign mix, the master fader at wherever it needs to be for the meter to stay in the green. I always have to check to make sure the mains output thingie on the rear panel is maxed out as well. It definitely is a bit different than my A&H and Midas consoles, but once I got used to there being two different dB scales in the metering it straightened out pretty well.

I think you'll really enjoy the board.

Edit:

BTW......that red LED at the top of channel 2 in the picture is telling you what red lights always tell you......overload.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Rob...

Don't want to pick nits, but you'll find you'll get a much cleaner sound if you don't overdrive your channels and use more from the master section. Looking at the meters in the pic, the individual channels are WAY over-amped and your master faders are running low, yet you're still hitting close to max on the master meters.

That's not good gain structure, brother. But for the first time out with the board probably not bad. It does take some getting used to.

Edit:

Just noticed the double bussing on the selected channel.......

Unless the summing buses are overloaded to the point of clipping (running out of 1s and 0s) is there an audible difference between running hot gain and low master as opposed to cold gain and master high on this board?

 

[Rob Gow]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I run the input gain around -15 on the meters, the channel output ends up being close to that for a benign mix, the master fader at wherever it needs to be for the meter to stay in the green. I always have to check to make sure the mains output thingie on the rear panel is maxed out as well. It definitely is a bit different than my A&H and Midas consoles, but once I got used to there being two different dB scales in the metering it straightened out pretty well.

I think you'll really enjoy the board.

Ah ok. So you max the mains output thing on the back, have your gains set properly, and then let your master fader fall where it may (not necessarily unity) but where it needs to be...

Edit:

BTW......that red LED at the top of channel 2 in the picture is telling you what red lights always tell you......overload.

That's another thing I've learned since, that the clip LED will show up, no matter what the bridge is set at. I remember thinking "Hmmmm I'm checking out the FX mix, and I get the odd red clip LED, that's strange, since the FX mix is no where near clipping" it's a handy feature, now that I know what it means.

Thanks for the tips!!!

Unless the summing buses are overloaded to the point of clipping (running out of 1s and 0s) is there an audible difference between running hot gain and low master as opposed to cold gain and master high on this board?

Here's a tidbit I learned on another forum...

When you PFL a channel, you want to set the gain so that the average level is around -15dB at most (which is about the same as 0 t0 +5 on an analog console). Between peaks and the band sandbagging, this should just about keep things clean. Note that the main meter is "analog style" (the 0 operating level is 20dB below clipping), while the LVL meter is "digital style" (0 IS clipping).

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Unless the summing buses are overloaded to the point of clipping (running out of 1s and 0s) is there an audible difference between running hot gain and low master as opposed to cold gain and master high on this board?

If you look at the picture of the board in operation you can see that the "fat channel" meters are set to "output" mode. So the FC meters are really functioning as a meter bridge. The output level of the first three channels are showing two of them maxxed out and one with the clip LED lit. On my SLive this would mean some digital distortion was being sent TO the summing amps. They'll have enough 1's and 0's to sum things, but what they'll sum will be crunchy. The possibility of clipping exists well before the summing amps. The answer to your question is "no", it should not make an audible difference. But the picture in this instance is showing clipping and high load BEFORE the summing amps.

While the SLives are very "analog" friendly and easy to navigate it does take a bit of practice to set proper gain structure through it. With the change to the digital metering standard from analog combined with the fact that the board uses both metering systems it is easy to crunch things the first time out. After that it works fine.

When my SLive is set up as in the picture with the meter bridge showing the channel output levels, the LED's would be peaking around the middle of their travel, not hitting the tops. And with the channel faders at "unity" as in the picture, the peaking of the meters probably means that the input gains are set higher than -15, which is what Rob cited as optimum in his last post. -15 is the correct input level IME.

Again, the answer to the question is "no", but the real question is about the gain structure and whether the visual evidence shows excessive levels prior to the summing amps.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

If you look at the picture of the board in operation you can see that the "fat channel" meters are set to "output" mode. So the FC meters are really functioning as a meter bridge. The output level of the first three channels are showing two of them maxxed out and one with the clip LED lit. On my SLive this would mean some digital distortion was being sent TO the summing amps. They'll have enough 1's and 0's to sum things, but what they'll sum will be crunchy. The possibility of clipping exists well before the summing amps. The answer to your question is "no", it should not make an audible difference. But the picture in this instance is showing clipping and high load BEFORE the summing amps.

While the SLives are very "analog" friendly and easy to navigate it does take a bit of practice to set proper gain structure through it. With the change to the digital metering standard from analog combined with the fact that the board uses both metering systems it is easy to crunch things the first time out. After that it works fine.

When my SLive is set up as in the picture with the meter bridge showing the channel output levels, the LED's would be peaking around the middle of their travel, not hitting the tops. And with the channel faders at "unity" as in the picture, the peaking of the meters probably means that the input gains are set higher than -15, which is what Rob cited as optimum in his last post. -15 is the correct input level IME.

Again, the answer to the question is "no", but the real question is about the gain structure and whether the visual evidence shows excessive levels prior to the summing amps.

Thanks for your indepth response, Dick.

Not clipping the inputs would certainly be a necessity for having the mixer output an undistorted signal, no argument there.

FWIW, the Yamaha manuals I have read state something like "occationally seeing a red light is OK although signals driven to these levels over prolonged periods of time will have audible artifacts". I believe the red light kicks in 3 dB before the AD runs out of 1s and 0s, although, on my DM 2000 you can set the meters to show post channel EQ, meaning that if you lower the EQ bands a lot and don't use the EQ makeup gain, you can experience seing the little red light on the actual pream lighting up well before the meter shows full scale readout. I also believe most mixers just compress the hell out of the signal instead of letting it run into actual digital clipping.

I am curious as to how the Yamaha offerings compare to Presonus' way of designing things.

 

[Wali Raffiqi]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

When my SLive is set up as in the picture with the meter bridge showing the channel output levels, the LED's would be peaking around the middle of their travel, not hitting the tops. And with the channel faders at "unity" as in the picture, the peaking of the meters probably means that the input gains are set higher than -15, which is what Rob cited as optimum in his last post. -15 is the correct input level IME.

Dick,

What does your main output level meter read at this setting? I do the exact thing as far as -15 for the input, and the output meters per channel reading at about halfway (if not less) on the channel meters, but my main output level is usually at around the first and sometime poking at the second orange LED. In other words, toying with +10. I was wondering if that's normal. It's hardly ever I see it stay at green only, unless the channel faders are around -30 or so, which then I will not get much volume out of them of course.

Thanks.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Dick,

What does your main output level meter read at this setting? I do the exact thing as far as -15 for the input, and the output meters per channel reading at about halfway (if not less) on the channel meters, but my main output level is usually at around the first and sometime poking at the second orange LED. In other words, toying with +10. I was wondering if that's normal. It's hardly ever I see it stay at green only, unless the channel faders are around -30 or so, which then I will not get much volume out of them of course.

Thanks.

The more I use the board and get used to the metering and level setting, the easier it is to set up level gain staging throughout the console. It has been the same (if a bit more pronounced) as switching from one brand/level of analog console to another. Each design would seem to be a bit different than the others and require the operator to learn precisely the optimum input levels, channel levels, summing amp limitations, etc.

I don't think your situation is unique to the SLive or any other board. It is simply where you are at with the console. You could stay there if it's working for you or strive to get the flow leveled out a bit more. Just remember that the -15 is in digital dB where you can go no higher than 0 (digital max or clip) and the mains output meters are reading in "regular" old dBs......where 0 is 16 or more db short of clip.

It's a bit strange at first having the two metering systems on one desk, but pretty easy to get used to after a bit of use.

And it matters quite a bit how much of a system you're feeding with it. The more power you have available in the system, the less you'll end up running up in the yellow LED's.

If I'm running into the yellow with the master fader(s) at 0 I'll back off the channels a bit and balance things up if I have to. But I don't mind running the master at -10 if I have to. It'll stay clean up to the last yellow LED and that's enough reserve power for me.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I am hugely not a fan of the way the output meters are set up on the Presonus boards. The bottom light on the meter is -80db, and the segments around 0 are 5dB jumps. Unless you are working with extraordinarily dynamic music, you are essentially working with a 3 segment display on the output, which represents 15db of range. Most boards I've used have 3db segments around 0 and don't start metering until -40 or so.

Interestingly enough, on each channel, around 0 they use a 2db separation, but put the 0 point midway up on the meter. and it only goes down to -15db. Here, they could have calibrated the 0 point higher on the meter and given me more room below so I can see what's going on.

It is nice that it reads up to +15 on the channels. If you trim out the board so that zero is zero, like you would on a normal board, that gives you 15dB of headroom to work with. With the presonus board, clip means clip, and on a digital board, clipping is far nastier than on an analogue board. With a digital board as soon as you clip, you will hear it. On an analogue board, generally, it just starts sounding worse when you hit that point. ie, on an analog board, the occasional clip light is nothing to worry about. On a digital board, you never want to see it. The Yamaha's may be calibrated that the clip light comes on before true clip, but my experience says that the Presonus is not.

Generally speaking, when looking at each channel, you want to keep the meters in the bottom 2/3s of the world. Above that and you're living on the edge.

The Presonus is a great value of a board, and will make you good money. You just have to learn to live with some of the different things that they decided to do. The iPad app is AWESOME. However, make sure that your computer and the unit are on a good UPS. If your computer crashes, or the firewire gets disconnected, it can mute the whole board. Learned that one the hard way.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I am hugely not a fan of the way the output meters are set up on the Presonus boards. The bottom light on the meter is -80db, and the segments around 0 are 5dB jumps. Unless you are working with extraordinarily dynamic music, you are essentially working with a 3 segment display on the output, which represents 15db of range. Most boards I've used have 3db segments around 0 and don't start metering until -40 or so.

This would seem to be a problem only when you are "mixing with your eyes". Your ears will tell you how much sound you need, not the meters. The meters WILL tell you when you're in trouble......

Interestingly enough, on each channel, around 0 they use a 2db separation, but put the 0 point midway up on the meter. and it only goes down to -15db. Here, they could have calibrated the 0 point higher on the meter and given me more room below so I can see what's going on.

Your board must be different. Every one I've worked on had the (fat) channel meters with 0 at the top, not in the middle.

It is nice that it reads up to +15 on the channels. If you trim out the board so that zero is zero, like you would on a normal board, that gives you 15dB of headroom to work with. With the presonus board, clip means clip, and on a digital board, clipping is far nastier than on an analogue board. With a digital board as soon as you clip, you will hear it. On an analogue board, generally, it just starts sounding worse when you hit that point. ie, on an analog board, the occasional clip light is nothing to worry about. On a digital board, you never want to see it. The Yamaha's may be calibrated that the clip light comes on before true clip, but my experience says that the Presonus is not.

Again, I don't see what you're talking about. The meters do not read "up to +15" on the channels. They read to 0dBfs.

Generally speaking, when looking at each channel, you want to keep the meters in the bottom 2/3s of the world. Above that and you're living on the edge.

The Presonus is a great value of a board, and will make you good money. You just have to learn to live with some of the different things that they decided to do. The iPad app is AWESOME. However, make sure that your computer and the unit are on a good UPS. If your computer crashes, or the firewire gets disconnected, it can mute the whole board. Learned that one the hard way.

Take another look at your metering. I think you're not reading them right. The channels (fat channel meter bridge mode) are in dBfs and are labeled as such....with 0 at the top. The only meters on the desk which are dBvu and go above 0 are in the master section......sub-groups and mains out.

Well, shoot......I can't seem to get the bmp file to attach. Some smart guy I am. Anyhoo, it was a picture of the SLive channel metering clearly showing the scale printed in dBfs, beginning at -72 at the bottom and ending with 0dBfs at the top. Take my word for it.

 

[Rob Gow]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I think he might be mid-reading the channel markings. In the EQ settings, channels 15, 18, 21 & 24 are labelled up to +15 on the left of the meters, but that's the gain for the EQ. On the right of the other channels, in light grey/blue are the LVL levels, with "clip" at the top...

(basically repeating what you said, here's a pic...)

 

[Wali Raffiqi]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

I don't think your situation is unique to the SLive or any other board. It is simply where you are at with the console. You could stay there if it's working for you or strive to get the flow leveled out a bit more. Just remember that the -15 is in digital dB where you can go no higher than 0 (digital max or clip) and the mains output meters are reading in "regular" old dBs......where 0 is 16 or more db short of clip.

It's a bit strange at first having the two metering systems on one desk, but pretty easy to get used to after a bit of use.

It's good to know about the differences in the meters. I honestly did not know that until I read this topic. I have always done the -15 because to me that level just seemed right. It was enough for the mics to have a good pick up gain, and enough for the board itself to put out the sound level I needed. But it's definitely good to know how the metering works on the SL.

If I'm running into the yellow with the master fader(s) at 0 I'll back off the channels a bit and balance things up if I have to. But I don't mind running the master at -10 if I have to. It'll stay clean up to the last yellow LED and that's enough reserve power for me.

Hope this answers your question.

Hmm, I will have to play around with it next time, maybe get the master fader involved a bit as well (master fader always stays at 0 for me).

And yes, it did answer my questions. I appreciate it!

Cheers.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Ah, you're right, I was mis-reading the metering of each channel. I assumed that due to the 2 different metering methods, the screens represented the 2 different reading types. I got this impression because if I fed a signal into a channel and had the channel at unity, and the mains at unity, when the channel reads around 0 (mid-point of the channel meter) I would get to 0db on the mains output. Now, since 0db on the mains is +- 5dB, it's hard to have a true comparison.

Dick, your argument that the meter on the board is only to tell you if you are in trouble is pretty weak. If that's the case, why not just put a piece of tape over everything except the clip light? Actually, on the baby 16.0.2, they did eliminate the main metering section. Reality is, the decision that Presonus made in the range of that meter pretty much sucks. They could have easily programmed the resolution to be more sensitive in the normal operating range.

But, on a positive note, if you attach your computer, the metering on there works as you'd expect. Go figure.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Dick, your argument that the meter on the board is only to tell you if you are in trouble is pretty weak. If that's the case, why not just put a piece of tape over everything except the clip light?

I wasn't arguing, merely stating that what matters is the level of sound that you HEAR, not so much what the mains out meters say. I mix and adjust the overall volume with my ears, not the meters. I could care less what my mains out meters say as long as I'm getting the amount of sound I need. But if I'm getting close to the system limits, I certainly will look to see if the output is being maxxed. I would never set my room level by the mains metering.

Pretty picky from someone who couldn't even read the dB scale clearly printed on his console, BJ.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Pretty picky from someone who couldn't even read the dB scale clearly printed on his console, BJ.

The fact that sound operators are misreading the meter on these consoles, especially considering they have differing scales on different meters pretty much next to eachother kinda says more about how Presonus labelled the mixer than it does about the operators.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

The fact that sound operators are misreading the meter on these consoles, especially considering they have differing scales on different meters pretty much next to eachother kinda says more about how Presonus labelled the mixer than it does about the operators.

Thank you. The point I was trying to make is that the decisions made on the board design are inconsistent in places. Inconsistent with what is expected, and inconsistent across the board itself.

It is still a fine board, and an easy way to get into the digital realm, and the price point is great. However, as you get familiar with the board, you will find several things that could be better with only minor tweaks to the design.

 

[Silas Pradetto]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

The fact that sound operators are misreading the meter on these consoles, especially considering they have differing scales on different meters pretty much next to eachother kinda says more about how Presonus labelled the mixer than it does about the operators.

I'm going to agree with everyone else and say that the Presonus either has a really odd gain structure or a really bad meter setup. I used the Studiolive 16.4.2 once, without reading the manual or preparing at all, and after setting all the input gains to a reasonable level (or so I thought), I couldn't get nearly enough output from the mains (and this was for an acoustic show, running into JBL PRX mains). I ended up having to run the main fader at well above unity, with the output meter about clipping, to get any sort of reasonable output from the mains. I don't know if the outputs on the Studiolive have a relatively low level, or what was going on, but it was nowhere near even the normal Mackie's output capability.

 

[Dick Rees]

Re: Finally pulled the trigger on a StudioLive 24.4.2

Silas....

The first guess would be that the output adjustment next to the output XLR's was turned down. You have to have it full up. That said, it can seem like the desk has a low output. I haven't decided on that aspect yet.......

DR