Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

I've gone edit crazy, I need to stop. I think I drank too much espresso. What I was going to say is,

I'm not sure if there are any other commercial measurement systems, besides SoundCheck, which work like that actually. At least in the pro audio field. I would love to know so I could try them out. SoundCheck is really too expensive and cumbersome for anyone to use unless you are a high volume manufacturer.
 
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Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Mark DeArman said:
I'm not sure if there are any other commercial measurement systems, besides SoundCheck, which work like actually. At least in the pro audio field. I would love to know so I could try them out. SoundCheck is really too expensive and cumbersome for anyone to use unless you are a high volume manufacturer.
Click to expand...
A few come to mind:
1. TEF
2. Klippel
3. Audiomatica CLIO
4. LinearX's long anticipated LX500 seems promising as well.
5. Liberty Praxis
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Arthur Skudra said:
A few come to mind:
1. TEF
2. Klippel
3. Audiomatica CLIO
4. LinearX's long anticipated LX500 seems promising as well.
5. Liberty Praxis
Click to expand...

Unless something has changed with CLIO, it does the direct transform and not matched filtering.
The old linear X system only did stepped sine analysis, I haven't tried his new one.
I just looked through the Praxis manual and it appears to just do the direct form also.

I'm going to give a talk at the Seattle AES on March 12th about different affordable measurement systems and how they work and how to use them. I hope to get the power point slides uploaded so people can look at them next week.

Here is the first parts, you can tell me what you think.
http://www.cascadeacoustic.com/file...udio-Band_Test_and_Measurement_Part1_Rev3.pdf

If you can remember any others, I'd like to try out a few more.

Oh I always forget, EASERA has a TDS module which cost extra and required the Firebox with a sync pin. So there is one.

The main ones I'm going to look at right now are Smart/Sys-tune, REW, and I'll use my software as a sample of the matched filter type. I don't have a TEF or access to one.
 
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Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

While we're on the topic of measurement systems, do either of you have any suggestions for something cheap to practice with? I can't justify the dive into an expensive measurement tool until I understand how to use it, but I'll need something to learn with.

EDIT: I'll leave this up just in case you have other options. I didn't read anything on Page 2 before posting. My apologies.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Max Warasila said:
While we're on the topic of measurement systems, do either of you have any suggestions for something cheap to practice with? I can't justify the dive into an expensive measurement tool until I understand how to use it, but I'll need something to learn with.

EDIT: I'll leave this up just in case you have other options. I didn't read anything on Page 2 before posting. My apologies.
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I really liked REW for the price (free), http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
You have to login to their home audio forum,
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/downloads-area/47460-v5-01-beta-downloads-asio-support.html
to get the latest versions.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Mark DeArman said:
I really liked REW for the price (free), http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
You have to login to their home audio forum,
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/downloads-area/47460-v5-01-beta-downloads-asio-support.html
to get the latest versions.
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Me too. :lol:

Just got around to ordering a cheap measurement mic (but good enough) last week to do measurements with, and was trying to find a program to abuse. There was a training video with 4+ options including some Mac native options I had stumbled across on YT a few months back but couldn't find it for the life of me. Thanks for the pointer.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Arthur Skudra said:
A few come to mind:
1. TEF
2. Klippel
3. Audiomatica CLIO
4. LinearX's long anticipated LX500 seems promising as well.
5. Liberty Praxis
Click to expand...

How do you get along with Liberty Praxis? I ask because I am always running into bugs, or things seemingly change, and I can't get back to where I want to be. Of course I use it sparingly, and need a refresher every time I try again, and it seems to me that there are sparse tutorials, or help options.

And speaking of measurement systems, and long awaited, put MacFOH on the list. Longer and longer awaited.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Arthur Skudra said:
A few come to mind:
1. TEF
2. Klippel
3. Audiomatica CLIO
4. LinearX's long anticipated LX500 seems promising as well.
5. Liberty Praxis
Click to expand...

How much do these cost? As mentioned, I have Liberty Praxis, and it seems quite modest for entry level.
My impression is that Klippel is much more expensive, but I have nothing solid to base this on.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

I don't have any extensive experience with Praxis, so I can't comment on it's software, I just mentioned it as an option. I do know that by the time you buy all the modules, the Klippel system is very spendy (similar to the previously mentioned Listen measurement system, maybe similar to a Bruel & Kjaer measurement system)! I'm sure if you use it full time as a loudspeaker designer, the cost of the Klippel can be justified, their focus seems to be on that particular market.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Max Warasila said:
While we're on the topic of measurement systems, do either of you have any suggestions for something cheap to practice with?
Click to expand...

I love ARTA. Very stable, I feel I know what it's doing most of the time, export of data works well, and the user's manual gives lots of mathematical detail.

http://www.artalabs.hr/

About $150 as I recall.

--Frank
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Arthur Skudra said:
I do know that by the time you buy all the modules, the Klippel system is very spendy (similar to the previously mentioned Listen measurement system, maybe similar to a Bruel & Kjaer measurement system)! I'm sure if you use it full time as a loudspeaker designer, the cost of the Klippel can be justified, their focus seems to be on that particular market.
Click to expand...

Yes, Klippel, SoundCheck and Audio Precision make loudspeaker manufacturing test software/hardware. This is really not a tool which you could use to say, EQ a room effectively. The SoundCheck system which I had on loan for a few years cost around $30,000 at retail.

The reason I started making my own software, was that I wanted a hybrid between these two classes, and it just didn't exist.
 
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Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Frank Koenig said:
I love ARTA. Very stable, I feel I know what it's doing most of the time, export of data works well, and the user's manual gives lots of mathematical detail.
http://www.artalabs.hr/
Click to expand...

Well based on the manual, I give ARTA the thumbs up. The author took the time to document the mathematical basis for all of his algorithms in the manual.
The is amazingly rare among audio test software.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Frank Koenig said:
I love ARTA. Very stable, I feel I know what it's doing most of the time, export of data works well, and the user's manual gives lots of mathematical detail.

http://www.artalabs.hr/

About $150 as I recall.

--Frank
Click to expand...

I, too, recommend ARTA, and use it when I'm not in the field. On site I will use both SMAART and Systune. I think an ARTA dongle is about $125? Very reasonable.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Max Warasila said:
Apparently it's 79 Euros or just under 100 dollars. I'll have to save up a bit and use REW for the time being.
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I think there is still a 30 day demo version of Smaart, and a feature-limited version of Systune.

The basic functions are the same, the math is essentially the same, but the user interfaces are very different. Both are competent tools.

Max, if you need a graduation present idea, I'd recommend the 3 day Smaart class.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Tim McCulloch said:
Max, if you need a graduation present idea, I'd recommend the 3 day Smaart class.
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I think this is the most critical part of any measurement software choice. Spend as much time as you want learning at your own pace, but a class will really help cement the core concepts, and give you a chance to interact with people who 'really' know what they are doing, one on one.

I'm a huge fan of self teaching and learning online, but am amazed at how slowly things go compared to say, the last college class I took.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Mark DeArman said:
I think this is the most critical part of any measurement software choice. Spend as much time as you want learning at your own pace, but a class will really help cement the core concepts, and give you a chance to interact with people who 'really' know what they are doing, one on one.

I'm a huge fan of self teaching and learning online, but am amazed at how slowly things go compared to say, the last college class I took.
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Agreed.

There are TWO main things to learn about measurements.

The first (and hardest) is actually UNDERSTANDING MEASUREMENTS-what the screen is telling you-what to look for etc.

Just because something is on the computer screen DOES NOT mean it is accurate.

The FIRST question everybody should aske themselves is "does that make sense?" If it doesn't then see if there is actually something wrong with what you are measuring OR something wrong in YOUR setup/measurement.

The second and easier thing is understanding your way around the actual software.

Somebody who understands measurements can find their way around the various software programs kinda easy and get good measurements.

But the HARD part is understanding what you are actually seeing and what it means.

A dip in the response DOES NOT always mean that you put an eq filter there to "bump it up". The software might "look" like you fixed it-but you could have made it wrong.

If the dip was caused by cancellation of different signal arrivals, then EQ is the wrong tool. Delay would be the proper tool. But if you fix one seating position-have you made others worse?

As usual-once you start digging0it just gets deeper and deeper.
 
Re: Garage Loudspeaker Lab

Good news, Ivan - I question things as readily as you do. Funnily enough, I just encountered the situation you listed above yesterday and I explained exactly that to the sophomore who was curious as to what I was doing.
 
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