Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Gene Hardage said:
what he said
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Since my background includes far more musical genres than just rock, I would agree and suggest every musician play some jazz and/or bluegrass in a setting where you listen for what the other players are doing. I would also suggest every one practice active listening. Take a regular radio mix of any song and listen specifically to one instrument at a time.

But I already see that some people are missing the point of my post. And that point is not to give guitarist free reign for their stage volume. You are going to need some minimal volume from some source. What I care about is whether that volume is produced by one source or multiple sources. This is especially true on medium sized stages with multiple monitor mixes.

CHANGING THAT MINIMUM VOLUME FROM ONE SOURCE ON STAGE TO MULTIPLE SOURCES ON STAGE is not going to make better sound.

No one here would claim that using multiple sources at similar levels with differing arrival times is going to make FOH sound better, so why would it be better on stage?
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Jay Barracato said:
Since my background includes far more musical genres than just rock, I would agree and suggest every musician play some jazz and/or bluegrass in a setting where you listen for what the other players are doing. I would also suggest every one practice active listening. Take a regular radio mix of any song and listen specifically to one instrument at a time.

But I already see that some people are missing the point of my post. And that point is not to give guitarist free reign for their stage volume. You are going to need some minimal volume from some source. What I care about is whether that volume is produced by one source or multiple sources. This is especially true on medium sized stages with multiple monitor mixes.

CHANGING THAT MINIMUM VOLUME FROM ONE SOURCE ON STAGE TO MULTIPLE SOURCES ON STAGE is not going to make better sound.

No one here would claim that using multiple sources at similar levels with differing arrival times is going to make FOH sound better, so why would it be better on stage?
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I agree Jay.
This is what I see affecting what you are describing.
On smaller stages a lower volume guitar is obviously desirable. One problem because of limited distances, getting the amp in a spot where everyone can hear enough of the direct sound to be comfortable. Guitar amps are pretty directional.
Because of this it MAY be desirable to have a low volume guitar in the monitors hitting vocal mics at their null points rather than a louder amp blowing across the stage, which still developes different arrival times as it arrives at all the different mics at different distances and with varying phase characteristics. A balancing act for sure. From this perspective the guitar in the monitors might induce less time smear because the distances will be shorter and probably more uniform as everyone's monitor is Probably at a uniform distance from vocal mics as opposed to an amp on the opposite end of the stage.
Just some thoughts.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

John Chiara said:
I agree Jay.
This is what I see affecting what you are describing.
On smaller stages a lower volume guitar is obviously desirable. One problem because of limited distances, getting the amp in a spot where everyone can hear enough of the direct sound to be comfortable. Guitar amps are pretty directional.
Because of this it MAY be desirable to have a low volume guitar in the monitors hitting vocal mics at their null points rather than a louder amp blowing across the stage, which still developes different arrival times as it arrives at all the different mics at different distances and with varying phase characteristics. A balancing act for sure. From this perspective the guitar in the monitors might induce less time smear because the distances will be shorter and probably more uniform as everyone's monitor is Probably at a uniform distance from vocal mics as opposed to an amp on the opposite end of the stage.
Just some thoughts.
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This may be why your shield is so effective. It is not that it is reducing the volume of the amp, but it is putting that volume where it does some good. I still think the time smear, whether from the amp to the mics, or from the monitors to the mics or listening position is only half the story. I think giving up directionality between different sources hurts the ability to hear things as separate sources.

Once both guitars, in a two guitar band, are in the monitors at equal level as the primary source at each listening position, unless their tone is radically different, are going to merge as a single sound. Add in the fact, on a reasonablly small stage, the center guitarist asks for more me, 5 feet to the right, the other guitarist asks for more me, and then you step back a couple feet from the wedges and both sources average out.

As have been suggested, this is something a good band will work out in practice. But, from my experience, I have not seen a single case where reducing the guitar amp volume, actually resulted in an overall reduction in stage volume. On the other hand, I have had two separate occasions where a guitarist or a bassist were ampless on stage and because I had extra monitor mixes available, put up one instrumental mix and one vocal mix (dual pa style with monitors). Both were trios, but I think in a two guitar band I would put ME in one wedge and supporting instruments in the other... Or just go to sidefills... or stereo IEMS...or stop throwing around tech solutions which require changing the musicians playing style/comfort zone.

Everything is a compromise, so instead of telling these guys "you have to" I will just fall back on my set of tricks for making good out of what they want to do.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Ivan Beaver said:
That can also mean that the guitar amps are to loud. And that creates a whole new set of problems.

I would rather have quieter guitar amps and run some guitar through the monitors for people to hear them. That makes for a much better overall sound with less bleed through into other mics.

The LAST thing I want on a stage is somebody who says "Don't worry-my amp is loud enough by itself".
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Exactly! It's especially nice when guitarists use guitar pods or modeling processors and leave the amps at home.:D~:-D~:grin:

Most of the guitarists who play small bar gigs in my area use their amps as the only sound source. The ones who play for a living are pretty good about controlling their sound and understand what it means to play as an ensemble. In bigger venues the amps become their monitors. The overwhelming majority of problems I encounter are from the young players or the older ones who never matured musicially.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Tom Roche said:
Exactly! It's especially nice when guitarists use guitar pods or modeling processors and leave the amps at home.:D~:-D~:grin:

Most of the guitarists who play small bar gigs in my area use their amps as the only sound source. The ones who play for a living are pretty good about controlling their sound and understand what it means to play as an ensemble. In bigger venues the amps become their monitors. The overwhelming majority of problems I encounter are from the young players or the older ones who never matured musicially.
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Lets discuss another theory. My take is this..even in a small venue, as much sound as possible should come from the FOH system.
When anyone listens to recorded music, this is how the soundscape is produced. When not micing amps or other sources, they first become detached from vocals, which leads to the vocals way on top karaoke effect.
Second, as soon as the dance floor fills the amps are blocked and this effect is even greater.
So, an overall lower and even volume for ALL instruments works better.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

John Chiara said:
Lets discuss another theory. My take is this..even in a small venue, as much sound as possible should come from the FOH system.
When anyone listens to recorded music, this is how the soundscape is produced. When not micing amps or other sources, they first become detached from vocals, which leads to the vocals way on top karaoke effect.
Second, as soon as the dance floor fills the amps are blocked and this effect is even greater.
So, an overall lower and even volume for ALL instruments works better.
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So many variables...
I agree, in theory, but don't think it'll happen in the small bar world. At least not in my neck of the woods. Most bands just don't think it's necessary or they lack the know-how and they don't use BEs. And the small and medium size bars/venues don't employ techs. Perhaps it's a regional thing.

Many of the working bands around here already do a fairly good job balancing their instruments. The biggest problem I hear is vox burried in the mix. Even then, the vox usually sounds like mud: overly bass heavy.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Tom Roche said:
So many variables...
I agree, in theory, but don't think it'll happen in the small bar world. At least not in my neck of the woods. Most bands just don't think it's necessary or they lack the know-how and they don't use BEs. And the small and medium size bars/venues don't employ techs. Perhaps it's a regional thing.

Many of the working bands around here already do a fairly good job balancing their instruments. The biggest problem I hear is vox burried in the mix. Even then, the vox usually sounds like mud: overly bass heavy.
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The bass heavy vocal thing is common with SOS deployment. I usually see this with Blues bands with loud guitar volumes and big boomy vocals. It gets tiring and uninteresting real quick for me. These kind of things happen often with less than full range systems....trying to get some sense of fullness I assume. Thing is, you NEVER hear vocals like that on a recording...it would sound ridiculous. As always I question the reference.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

John Chiara said:
The bass heavy vocal thing is common with SOS deployment. I usually see this with Blues bands with loud guitar volumes and big boomy vocals. It gets tiring and uninteresting real quick for me. These kind of things happen often with less than full range systems....trying to get some sense of fullness I assume. Thing is, you NEVER hear vocals like that on a recording...it would sound ridiculous. As always I question the reference.
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John, there does seem to be more of a problem with SOS deployment. I disagree with the inference that it is the SOS as a reproduction means, but rather I would point to a lack of talent on the board, and that the band (and many audiences) have no idea of what things should sound like in a live environment.

SOS is not the devil here, just as racks and stacks are not the savior. Many of those SOS speakers may be "full range" systems, but would hardly stand up to a SMAART analysis as flat. That does not mean that they cannot be made to sound reasonably good with judiciously applied EQ. Using the three or four band on the mixer to fight off speaker problems and feedback leaves little resources to clean up the sound. Enough rig is also a player here.

Of course, that flat range problem is not unique to SOS systems. Any decent system will have been tuned carefully long before the band takes the stage. Look at all the DSP that is developed for specific, well known, respected loudspeakers. That leaves many tools to shape and optimize the sound, many of which are not even known about by many bands.

Add to that, many blues (or whatever) bands are running their own sound, or have their drinking buddy, Billy Bob, either "running the board", or just at the bar giving the thumbs up if it is ear-splitting enough. As a bonus, we can pay him in beer! Vocals? Who needs 'em? We know the words. By midnight, we're all singing along anyway. (10pm for Grateful Dead audiences)

Now, without Billy Bob, they are relegated to running sound from the stage. We all know how that turns out... The option of hiring a real soundman is not thought of, felt it is not needed, or an expense they cannot afford.

Bad equipment is indeed a large contributing factor, but most have no idea of what the EQ is for (let alone all the other knobs and buttons), and therefore are fearful to change anything. Center the knobs, plug it in, turn it on, and crank it to 11. One touring musician was "helping" a Billy Bob at the board and was saying to "always keep the EQ knobs between 11 o'clock and one. NEVER use more EQ than that."

Bottom line: Enough rig for the gig; talented BE; and talent enough to "run what you brung". Ability to make good lemonade is a must.

Drifted well OT - many apologies.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

The update after the gig... well I'd love to say that everything was better after we put 2,000 pax in the room, but no. The case lid went away so the Beaming Laser of Licks was back. The artistic issue for me, is that the player was good and he obviously was spending a lot of time with his sounds... and by themselves I think he had some great stuff. When combined with the star's rhythm guitar and keyboards it just didn't fit, tonally, and there wasn't much I could do about it for a chunk of the audience (hearing the stage wash). I also had more cymbal bleed into the star vox mic than I had at rehearsal.

Oh well, nobody got hurt, we all got paid. On to the next day in paradise... ;)


Tim McCulloch said:
I attended a rehearsal for tonight's NYE show. Everything and everyone on stage is too fucking loud. Most of it seems to stem from "artistic" choices about "tone", but also from the placement of amps relative to the players. Upstage 10' and offstage left or right by 15' means the player is mostly out of the coverage. "I need to turn up, I can't hear myself" when I'm measuring 105dBA at FOH (85' from the stage) seems stupid and contrary to the artistic desire to provide the audience with a reasonably uniform experience.

The lead player was accommodating, with a case lid in front of his amp... but it creates the multi-path problem that Jay brings up and contributes to the "I can't hear myself" (when they really mean "I can't make out what I'd doing"). The drummer bashes away because he's surrounded by the backwash of 3 guitars, a bass rig that is all mud, and keyboard player trying to hear himself over the din. Bah fucking humbug.

I like the guitar as an instrument, but too many of the players make me want to use them as firewood.
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Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Tim McCulloch said:
The update after the gig... well I'd love to say that everything was better after we put 2,000 pax in the room, but no. The case lid went away so the Beaming Laser of Licks was back. The artistic issue for me, is that the player was good and he obviously was spending a lot of time with his sounds... and by themselves I think he had some great stuff. When combined with the star's rhythm guitar and keyboards it just didn't fit, tonally, and there wasn't much I could do about it for a chunk of the audience (hearing the stage wash). I also had more cymbal bleed into the star vox mic than I had at rehearsal.

Oh well, nobody got hurt, we all got paid. On to the next day in paradise... ;)
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Sorry to hear it Tim,

It is too bad that there are so many accomplished guitarists that are so bad at playing in a band.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

As a guitarist, this has been an interesting thread to read.

I added kick-back legs to my 1x12 combo in order to point the beaming laser of licks at my own noggin, rather than some poor unsuspecting audience member. Unfortunately, I realize, that also points said icepick at my vocal mic. Add to that the fact that my band mates tell me they want more of me (in a 4pc, I'm the only harmonic instrument), and now my guitar is too loud even for me, between what I'm hearing through my amp and whats in everyone else's monitor.

Makes me think of the time I saw Frank Gambale play with Chick Correa's Electrik Band (holy s#!t batman!), and he had his amp downstage next to his monitor, pointed back at his face (think it was a closed-back cab). I haven't tried this, but it seems like it would give the player the benefit of hearing his actual on-axis tone, while keeping the icepick aimed at the null of the vocal mic. It doesn't address the OP's issue of multiple arrivals due to guitar-in-the-monitors though. Anyone have experience with this technique?
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Peter Kowalczyk said:
As a guitarist, this has been an interesting thread to read.

I added kick-back legs to my 1x12 combo in order to point the beaming laser of licks at my own noggin, rather than some poor unsuspecting audience member. Unfortunately, I realize, that also points said icepick at my vocal mic. Add to that the fact that my band mates tell me they want more of me (in a 4pc, I'm the only harmonic instrument), and now my guitar is too loud even for me, between what I'm hearing through my amp and whats in everyone else's monitor.

Makes me think of the time I saw Frank Gambale play with Chick Correa's Electrik Band (holy s#!t batman!), and he had his amp downstage next to his monitor, pointed back at his face (think it was a closed-back cab). I haven't tried this, but it seems like it would give the player the benefit of hearing his actual on-axis tone, while keeping the icepick aimed at the null of the vocal mic. It doesn't address the OP's issue of multiple arrivals due to guitar-in-the-monitors though. Anyone have experience with this technique?
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Even if it isn't closed back, gaff tape+light weight black fabrics (including pantyhose, sometimes) will do the trick.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Peter Kowalczyk said:
As a guitarist, this has been an interesting thread to read.

I added kick-back legs to my 1x12 combo in order to point the beaming laser of licks at my own noggin, rather than some poor unsuspecting audience member. Unfortunately, I realize, that also points said icepick at my vocal mic. Add to that the fact that my band mates tell me they want more of me (in a 4pc, I'm the only harmonic instrument), and now my guitar is too loud even for me, between what I'm hearing through my amp and whats in everyone else's monitor.

Makes me think of the time I saw Frank Gambale play with Chick Correa's Electrik Band (holy s#!t batman!), and he had his amp downstage next to his monitor, pointed back at his face (think it was a closed-back cab). I haven't tried this, but it seems like it would give the player the benefit of hearing his actual on-axis tone, while keeping the icepick aimed at the null of the vocal mic. It doesn't address the OP's issue of multiple arrivals due to guitar-in-the-monitors though. Anyone have experience with this technique?
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When I played guitar in my original band, i used a 2x12 closed back cab on a tilt back guitar stand...right in front of me. I had IEM's. I could play relatively quietly and had a ton of control of my sound. I didn't mix so not sure on the effect out front.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Peter Kowalczyk said:
Makes me think of the time I saw Frank Gambale play with Chick Correa's Electrik Band (holy s#!t batman!), and he had his amp downstage next to his monitor, pointed back at his face (think it was a closed-back cab). I haven't tried this, but it seems like it would give the player the benefit of hearing his actual on-axis tone, while keeping the icepick aimed at the null of the vocal mic. It doesn't address the OP's issue of multiple arrivals due to guitar-in-the-monitors though. Anyone have experience with this technique?
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Depending on the mic and if it's not moving it might be even better to have the amp/monitor placed not in right in front but rather slightly on an angle to the mic.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Robert Lofgren said:
Depending on the mic and if it's not moving it might be even better to have the amp/monitor placed not in right in front but rather slightly on an angle to the mic.
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This exactly. In my experience the guitar player does not need to experience his full sound while he is singing. At that point the vocal has more importance, and the guitar can be a couple of notches quieter.
Then when playing guitar only, the player can step into that sweet spot.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

@ Robert - are you referring to the difference between a cardioid and a hypercardioid mic?

@ Jack - seems like you're saying that the guitar amp shouldn't point at the mic at all, but rather past or behind the mic, putting the Amp's sweet spot somewhere besides the vocal mic, null or not.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Peter Kowalczyk said:
@ Jack - seems like you're saying that the guitar amp shouldn't point at the mic at all, but rather past or behind the mic, putting the Amp's sweet spot somewhere besides the vocal mic, null or not.
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Musicians rarely play their instruments at the very spot they sing, lips right on the vocal mic. They almost always step up from somewhere, to sing, even on very small stages. The guitar amp should be pointed to where they step up from. Not where they step up to. A small but important distinction.
 
Re: Good guitarists getting bad advice...

Peter Kowalczyk said:
@ Robert - are you referring to the difference between a cardioid and a hypercardioid mic?
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Yes, I am. Many people forget about the backlobe. With a moving mic the angle doesn't matter much but guitarists usually have their mics on a stand that never moves.

Or you can put a monitor on each side of the mic and phase reverse one ;-)
 
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