Grampa is getting older and crankier

Lee Brenkman

Lee Brenkman

Junior
Jan 13, 2011
307
0
0
Oakland California USA
Realize this may step on a few toes here. Please note the "I bear no ill will…" line before you start jumping to the defense of EDM.


Just got this invitation via email:
"As a veteran of the audio business <snip>-I've seen lots of trends over the years. But nothing has been quite like the explosion of Electronic Dance Music. There are tremendous opportunities for audio professionals in this burgeoning genre, but also many challenges; that's why proper education is so important, be it for a large festival or an intimate venue.
<snip> that's why we've launched the Electronic Dance Music Master Classes for Sound at this year's LDI show, Nov. 19-20 in Las Vegas. Creative consultants and sound engineering/design professionals <snip> serve as hosts for this two day event; topics include DJ and System Tech Interaction; The Science of System Settings; Aspects of High Output Sound Systems; The Logistics of Dance Music Events; and more."

The snips are to remove the names of the persons involved.

I tried to reply but their email server is apparently not set to accept anything other than an acceptance/subscription to their email newsletter.

My reply: Thank you,
I have decided to stick with carbon based life forms performing music with their own voices and on various resonating wood and metal devices, sometimes amplified, sometimes not.
After 46 years of "doing sound" that's what I've decided I do best.
I bear no ill will towards people who provide and maintain those "High Output Sound Systems" for Electronic Dance Music but I have absolutely no desire to be one of them.
Thanks again for the invitation but I think I'll pass.
Lee Brenkman
PS I hope that at least ONE class in your program mentions hearing protection for professionals exposed to high volume levels for hours at a time.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

A friend of mine just came back to town after working Vegas on and off for months. His story was that Wynn has embraced EDM, is bringing in very highly paid DJs, and netting up to half a $MIL per night. This was after I was speculating on how much it cost to have the property to have a high end golf course, effectively one block off the strip, visible from the monorail.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Jack,

With the exception of taking my wife's mother, a retired dancer and choreographer, there for the "old school" show at Bally's on the occasion of her 80th birthday my policy for decades about Las Vegas is that I only go there when I am being well paid to do so.

Don't like the mega casinos don't like the climate, don't like the whole scene.

I am glad that those half a million dollar EMD nights might actually be putting some money in the bank accounts of some sound providers and technical staff.

For myself I'd rather do a local "$100 jazz gig".
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Lee Brenkman said:
PS I hope that at least ONE class in your program mentions hearing protection for professionals exposed to high volume levels for hours at a time.
Click to expand...

I'Ve been dealing with loud electronic music gigs for about 15 years, and my hearing is better than those who have very little to do with loud environments. Hearing protection was ingrained into my head before I even got my start, so I might be lucky, but to be fair, the most potentially damaging gigs I've had have been mixing poser rock bands with stage volumes I cannot control. At least with electronic music playback, once things are set, naked critical listening at every moment is not necessary.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Randy Pence said:
I'Ve been dealing with loud electronic music gigs for about 15 years, and my hearing is better than those who have very little to do with loud environments. Hearing protection was ingrained into my head before I even got my start, so I might be lucky, but to be fair, the most potentially damaging gigs I've had have been mixing poser rock bands with stage volumes I cannot control. At least with electronic music playback, once things are set, naked critical listening at every moment is not necessary.
Click to expand...
While we are on this topic, I've always wondered whether or not to use earplugs while mixing, and where the line between protecting your hearing and being able to mix well is drawn. I mean, if you're mixing and it's loud enough that you want protection you can always back off the master but sometimes it's not your choice (like in Randy's loud stage example).
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Max Warasila said:
While we are on this topic, I've always wondered whether or not to use earplugs while mixing, and where the line between protecting your hearing and being able to mix well is drawn. I mean, if you're mixing and it's loud enough that you want protection you can always back off the master but sometimes it's not your choice (like in Randy's loud stage example).
Click to expand...
The louder it is, the less your delicate mix changes matter. :) Pop your plugs out occasionally to check, but let the other idiots take the hearing damage, not you.

I don't enjoy music much louder than 100dBA/105dBC, and even at those levels, the plugs go in if it's any length of time.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Max Warasila said:
While we are on this topic, I've always wondered whether or not to use earplugs while mixing, and where the line between protecting your hearing and being able to mix well is drawn. I mean, if you're mixing and it's loud enough that you want protection you can always back off the master but sometimes it's not your choice (like in Randy's loud stage example).
Click to expand...

If I have control of how loud it is, I don't typically wear plugs while mixing (exceptions exist for things like mixing from right in front of the stacks). If I have no control over how loud it is, I'll mix with plugs if it's too loud. No gig is worth my hearing.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Lee Brenkman said:
Realize this may step on a few toes here. Please note the "I bear no ill will…" line before you start jumping to the defense of EDM.


Just got this invitation via email:
"As a veteran of the audio business <snip>-I've seen lots of trends over the years. But nothing has been quite like the explosion of Electronic Dance Music. There are tremendous opportunities for audio professionals in this burgeoning genre, but also many challenges; that's why proper education is so important, be it for a large festival or an intimate venue.
<snip> that's why we've launched the Electronic Dance Music Master Classes for Sound at this year's LDI show, Nov. 19-20 in Las Vegas. Creative consultants and sound engineering/design professionals <snip> serve as hosts for this two day event; topics include DJ and System Tech Interaction; The Science of System Settings; Aspects of High Output Sound Systems; The Logistics of Dance Music Events; and more."

The snips are to remove the names of the persons involved.

I tried to reply but their email server is apparently not set to accept anything other than an acceptance/subscription to their email newsletter.

My reply: Thank you,
I have decided to stick with carbon based life forms performing music with their own voices and on various resonating wood and metal devices, sometimes amplified, sometimes not.
After 46 years of "doing sound" that's what I've decided I do best.
I bear no ill will towards people who provide and maintain those "High Output Sound Systems" for Electronic Dance Music but I have absolutely no desire to be one of them.
Thanks again for the invitation but I think I'll pass.
Lee Brenkman
PS I hope that at least ONE class in your program mentions hearing protection for professionals exposed to high volume levels for hours at a time.
Click to expand...


Well since this thread is about grampas and crankiness ;-)

My grandmother is a very tough and sharp at just 90 years young. Most people in her retirement apartments think she's 70.

They have an annual picnic every year for families to come and visit. I had always been working the day of the picnic so I never went, but grandmother always complained about how they have a DJ that always plays "that damn jumpin' around music."

I could never figure out what she meant, all I could think of was that house of pain song from the 90's "jump around," but surely they wouldn't be playing that?

So one day she's talking about the picnic and reveals what the terrible "jumpin' around" music is...

... The Beatles.

Today's EDM is basically jumpin around music, something the kids can dance to and have a good time. See it for no more than that value.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Hello

Those old-never-get-tired grandpa´s and grandpa´s are simply great !!!

Wish I´ll be like that after two more decades...

1975 Malvina Reynolds was in Finland recording "Held over" - I was recording engineer at Finnvox - if I recall right it was for Love Records - plenty of youngish musicians.

She worked long days - took a short brake on sofa, sipped some orange juice and said : "Okay boys - next song..."

She must´ve been the person with most energy in that session.


Lovely memory.


R.I.P.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Timo,

The year after your encounter with Malvina I did the sound for a show in San Francisco with Mike and Peggy Seeger. They were in town to join with many others to celebrate the 90th Birthday of their father Charles Seeger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Seeger) who had, among other things, started the department of ethnomusicology at the University of California.

The patriarch himself came to the sound check but found it pretty boring stuff so he asked me where he could get a "good German beer" nearby. I told him where the nearest place where he could get one was and he took off, on foot, several blocks through one of San Francisco's less desirable neighborhoods. He did return safely for the show and complimented the suggestion as he enjoyed the beer, the sausages and the company of the locals.

Malvina was also at the show and told me that she was truly thrilled at the party the day before to "not be the oldest person in the room for a change".

She was a force of nature indeed and an inspiration to me then and now.

I've also worked with a couple of other musicians who were still working and energetic well into and beyond their 90s.
Eubie Blake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubie_Blake
and
Bill Tapia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Tapia
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Lee Brenkman said:
...I have decided to stick with carbon based life forms performing music with their own voices and on various resonating wood and metal devices, sometimes amplified, sometimes not...

Lee Brenkman
Click to expand...

Lee,

I think over coming years you will find an even more blurred line between "electronic" (not EDM) and "traditional" music from an instrumentation perspective. Some of the textures that people are figuring out how to make with synths are superseding the familiar tones produced by "traditional" instrumentation.

From established artists who blended source types, like Imogen Heap, Bjork, Trent Reznor, and Radiohead, to artists like Annie Clark (St. Vincent) who certainly play live on many (often) electronic instruments I think we'll see an ever blended definition of what constitutes an instrument.

And then you have guys like James Blake, Chet Faker, and Zedd who are equally comfortable behind a DJ mixer, Prophet synthesizer, Fender Rhodes, or grand piano. Artists like these guys are making music that span the range from EDM to pop to soul.

While one could play philosophical games like whether a synthesizer whose tone is a mix of arpeggiated square waves is more or less of an instrument than a drum pad that is playing back 24/96 samples of a real recorded kit, it is probably prudent to consider a broader base of what will constitute a played instrument as music progresses in the new century.
 
Last edited:
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Phil makes some great points, and to add - there are plenty of people performing both live and in studios using the very same types of traditional instruments Lee would prefer to see on his stage in combination with sampler/synthesized setups.

EDM as a subgenre is pretty popular in the states (is thankfully basically non-existent in the berlin club scene, for example), but there is a much wider range of electronic dance music than chainsaw sounds and bass drops
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Phil and Randy,

I re-state something from my original post, "I bear no ill will towards people who provide and maintain those "High Output Sound Systems" for Electronic Dance Music but I have absolutely no desire to be one of them."

I have worked with many people who were pioneers in electronic music, Paul Beaver, Bernie Krause, Don Buchla, Patrick Gleeson, Terry Riley and have "done my time" on the bleeding edges. It was fun, we were learning and making things up as we went along and got away with some really silly sh*t musically.

I have worked with bands that mixed electronic and acoustic sounds from many different cultures. One sound company that employed me used to send me out "anytime the input list included more than three things we don't recognize and can't pronounce.

My point is this. I am at a point in MY life were I am "over" huge groups of people enjoining themselves to repetitive, very loud music. I have been at the "it's too loud, I'm to old place" for decades now. There is more than enough work with those "carbon based life forms" to keep me busy for as long as I care to continue doing what I do.

Many of my associates look forward to Burning Man with great enthusiasm every year. I wouldn't want to be within a hundred miles of a desert where I need to carry in everything including water. They have found a COMMUNITY. I am not part of that community, nor would I fit in at an EDM event.

Go in peace, but be safe and I really do mean what I said about hearing protection. Too many of my contemporaries are deaf as a fence post.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Lee Brenkman said:
Phil and Randy,

I re-state something from my original post, "I bear no ill will towards people who provide and maintain those "High Output Sound Systems" for Electronic Dance Music but I have absolutely no desire to be one of them."

I have worked with many people who were pioneers in electronic music, Paul Beaver, Bernie Krause, Don Buchla, Patrick Gleeson, Terry Riley and have "done my time" on the bleeding edges. It was fun, we were learning and making things up as we went along and got away with some really silly sh*t musically.

I have worked with bands that mixed electronic and acoustic sounds from many different cultures. One sound company that employed me used to send me out "anytime the input list included more than three things we don't recognize and can't pronounce.

My point is this. I am at a point in MY life were I am "over" huge groups of people enjoining themselves to repetitive, very loud music. I have been at the "it's too loud, I'm to old place" for decades now. There is more than enough work with those "carbon based life forms" to keep me busy for as long as I care to continue doing what I do.

Many of my associates look forward to Burning Man with great enthusiasm every year. I wouldn't want to be within a hundred miles of a desert where I need to carry in everything including water. They have found a COMMUNITY. I am not part of that community, nor would I fit in at an EDM event.

Go in peace, but be safe and I really do mean what I said about hearing protection. Too many of my contemporaries are deaf as a fence post.
Click to expand...

Well said, Lee. Being able to do something and enjoying doing something are not the same thing. It is a blessing to be at a point in life where you can choose the latter.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

My point is this. I am at a point in MY life were I am "over" huge groups of people enjoining themselves to repetitive, very loud music. I have been at the "it's too loud, I'm to old place" for decades now. There is more than enough work with those "carbon based life forms" to keep me busy for as long as I care to continue doing what I do.
Click to expand...

Lee,

I think its fair to say that we are aligned in this general sentiment. I only keyed on the specific comments regarding what constitutes an instrument, because I do see that shifting in a wider range of music circles.

I've never been 100% full time in the industry, and certainly not in a mixing capacity, so I tend to self select what I work on, same as you. Its fair to say that EDM is not a part of that self selection.

But were I a production house owner, I'd gladly do these kinds of dance music gigs, as my limited experience with them is that they are easy money and can give green technical people field experience that isn't as challenging as 40 inputs they've never seen before. That is the difference between running a company and working for yourself.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

"You must remember this...a kiss is just a kiss...a sigh is just a sigh.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by."

Play it again, Gramps.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Phil Graham said:
Lee,





But were I a production house owner, I'd gladly do these kinds of dance music gigs, as my limited experience with them is that they are easy money and can give green technical people field experience that isn't as challenging as 40 inputs they've never seen before. That is the difference between running a company and working for yourself.
Click to expand...
I have been doing a fair bit of the EDM gigs lately.

I must there is A LOT to be liked about them.

Once you get setup (PROPER HARD LIMITERS ARE A MUST!!!) it is just a true baby sitting job (unless something breaks) from then on.

So set changeovers-no sound checks-no patching nightmares-no redoing the monitors etc.

The DJs control their own level (Did mention hard limiters--------).

I just sit back-people watch (which can be quite interesting), take a nap-walk around to other stages-take a nap-get something to eat and relax while eating-take a nap.

I must admit that I have some of the DJs making some interesting fun sounds that sound great and have lots of "body fun" on a good system.

I am going to Tomorrow world in Atlanta (I got free passes-no way I would pay that kind of money to get in) on Friday to do some "investigative work in terms of actual SPLs-freq reponses etc at different distances and different systems.

The lights and video at these gigs is often QUITE amazing!!!!!!!!!!!

But I am and will always be a live music with real musicians, kind of guy-having been raised on live music.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Ivan,

It surprises me not at all that you're doing a fair number of EDM gigs.

You do, after all, work for a company that makes ideal tools for the people who do provide for these events.

As for the people watching thing…if I ever do get around to "the book" that many of my friends tell me I should write the chapter on my decade plus traveling all over the world mixing FOH for a "corporate party band" will probably be titled "Watching people dance badly from the back of the dance floor".
 
Last edited:
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

I have done a lot of EDM. As far as making money what's not to like? 1 or 2 stereo inputs and a couple of spare wireless mics for any guest MC's. Not even any "talent" cupping the microphone. Put your hearing protection in and enjoy the laser show. Bring more than enough sub, scoop out whatever is nasty in the mid to clean up the slosh and you don't have to worry about blowing anything up.

The trick with EDM is to EQ the room to get out any spikes and then think of it as a really loud home stereo. The Fletcher-Munson curve applies here more than ever. Make use of a version of ye olde smiley curve just enough to separate the feel of the ultra low and the clarity of the top from all the harshness in the middle. As a sound engineer you are really not mixing ANYTHING, but you are setting up the system to the room so everyone can FEEL and HEAR the music. Without exception I have never had a DJ (local, regional, or national) ever come close to using all the power I have available when the system is set up properly. Clarity wins. Clarity and loud with a nice bump on the very bottom means it doesn't have to keep getting louder and louder to try to get that "Feel" that gets everybody dancing.
 
Re: Grampa is getting older and crankier

Eric Cagle said:
Clarity and loud with a nice bump on the very bottom means it doesn't have to keep getting louder and louder to try to get that "Feel" that gets everybody dancing.
Click to expand...
A 30dB "bump" on the bottom is not usually excessive.

Of course-as you say-it takes A LOT more subbage than you would normally think.

Once you give them that "bone shaking low end that wraps around you like a warm blanket", the top end is just there to keep the bass from being so boring.

I am often surprised that some of the shows do not push the system-assuming there is a deep enough low end. IF the deep bass is not there (as most speakers are not capable of reproducing it well), then it can get loud real quick-because they are "trying" to get the low end.
 
Top Bottom