Help me understand 'Riders'

Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Justice C. Bigler said:
Being "rider friendly" is kind of a misnomer. Either a band is big enough to carry their own equipment and it doesn't matter what the local venue/production company has, or they want the gig and will use what is supplied by the house/promoter.
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That's just not true. I work for artists that usually carry their own production. Sometimes we do festivals and fly dates. It just doesn't make sense to ship a console to Ecuador for a 40 minute set. I can be flexible, but if production is being brought in, then I will only flex so much. If the system is installed, then I flex a little more, but still will not mix on just anything. The rental of supplemental or replacement gear is usually a show cost.
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Brad Weber said:
That apparently was the point of the infamous Van Halen "M&Ms but no brown ones" rider clause. They apparently got tired of major things in their rider being ignored that would then not be discovered until too late so they added something that they could easily check that indicated whether the rider had been read and would be fulfilled. If there were M&Ms backstage and with all the brown ones removed then chances were good that they also got the big stuff right while if the M&Ms weren't there or had the brown ones included then that was an indication to start checking other things.
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I saw that video clip with DLR. My guess is that's about 20% true, the other 80% being the "Rock Star" mentality, and them enjoying being jerks.
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Jason Raboin said:
That's just not true. I work for artists that usually carry their own production. Sometimes we do festivals and fly dates. It just doesn't make sense to ship a console to Ecuador for a 40 minute set. I can be flexible, but if production is being brought in, then I will only flex so much. If the system is installed, then I flex a little more, but still will not mix on just anything. The rental of supplemental or replacement gear is usually a show cost.
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I can definitely see both sides of this equation, and what it really boils down to is the artist's production manager/sound tech/promoter communicating with the venue or show promoter while at the same time realizing that every show is a business transaction and there has to be some level of flexibilty on both sides. As the show $ goes up, the flexibility can (and probably does) go away some. However, I've seen riders asking for $150k in production on a 400 seat club gig for a regional touring band. If the venue can't sell enough tickets (at a price the market will bear) to fill the club and pay the act as well as other event costs, then forget about hiring in exactly what's on the rider. In some locations it's very difficult to source some gear at any kind of reasonable cost, so again it boils back down to negotiating what is needed to make the event successful for both parties. The last rider I saw for a B touring band was laughable...but a quick chat with the PM allowed for much more reasonable accommodations for the gig, and everyone was happy. It's a starting point for convesation, no more, no less (at least for the JV audience).
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Martin Primus said:
I can definitely see both sides of this equation, and what it really boils down to is the artist's production manager/sound tech/promoter communicating with the venue or show promoter while at the same time realizing that every show is a business transaction and there has to be some level of flexibilty on both sides. As the show $ goes up, the flexibility can (and probably does) go away some. However, I've seen riders asking for $150k in production on a 400 seat club gig for a regional touring band. If the venue can't sell enough tickets (at a price the market will bear) to fill the club and pay the act as well as other event costs, then forget about hiring in exactly what's on the rider. In some locations it's very difficult to source some gear at any kind of reasonable cost, so again it boils back down to negotiating what is needed to make the event successful for both parties. The last rider I saw for a B touring band was laughable...but a quick chat with the PM allowed for much more reasonable accommodations for the gig, and everyone was happy. It's a starting point for convesation, no more, no less (at least for the JV audience).
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Hi Martin, long time no see...

Yep, there are plenty of ridiculous things in riders and most of what's in them are negotiable...

Things less likely to be negotiable: wireless IEM. If they spec this they probably won't be happy with wedges but it never hurts to ask.
Mic stands: if they call it out on the input list, it needs to be there with spares. Acts that say they carry all stands, cables, etc for their mic & IEM package seem to need some extras.
Sufficient quantity of professional grade mics and DIs: common, industry-accepted brands and models. See below for the flip side.
Analog mixing consoles: the BE/BME has a favorite or a model that provides for his actual needs. At the Jr. Varsity level this is probably not an issue.

More likely to be negotiable: lighting in general. Some can be reduced to "if you can see the band and the light on the boss is a little brighter, it's fine."
Digital console models: 3 years ago this would have been on the "less negotiable" list. More of the BEs are fluent on more consoles these days. We still see a digital virgin once in a while and they're a lot more digital-ready than they used to be, too.
Console sharing: in Ye Olde Analogue Dayz, not sharing was the norm, getting leftover channels for the support was wishful thinking. With digital consoles there's no reason for exclusivity unless the artist is providing the mixer.
Boutique analog devices: channel inserts, particularly. With much of the market now on digital mixers, chances of finding esoteric analog gear with a local or regional provider is such a crap-shoot that savvy BEs bring with or will do without.
Picky or vintage mic lists: same as boutique analog stuff. It it's critical to the show the band should carry it. Expect to provide common mics.
Hospitality: buy-outs rather than providing catering - is often cheaper, too.

And you're absolutely right, calling the PM/TD is the best way to represent ones firm and the event. The "KF850 sidefills" might get crossed off the list for the 24X16' stage - or not - but you can bet that whatever is presumed will probably the opposite of what is needed.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Tim McCulloch said:
Hi Martin, long time no see...

Yep, there are plenty of ridiculous things in riders and most of what's in them are negotiable...

Things less likely to be negotiable: wireless IEM. If they spec this they probably won't be happy with wedges but it never hurts to ask.
Mic stands: if they call it out on the input list, it needs to be there with spares. Acts that say they carry all stands, cables, etc for their mic & IEM package seem to need some extras.
Sufficient quantity of professional grade mics and DIs: common, industry-accepted brands and models. See below for the flip side.
Analog mixing consoles: the BE/BME has a favorite or a model that provides for his actual needs. At the Jr. Varsity level this is probably not an issue.

More likely to be negotiable: lighting in general. Some can be reduced to "if you can see the band and the light on the boss is a little brighter, it's fine."
Digital console models: 3 years ago this would have been on the "less negotiable" list. More of the BEs are fluent on more consoles these days. We still see a digital virgin once in a while and they're a lot more digital-ready than they used to be, too.
Console sharing: in Ye Olde Analogue Dayz, not sharing was the norm, getting leftover channels for the support was wishful thinking. With digital consoles there's no reason for exclusivity unless the artist is providing the mixer.
Boutique analog devices: channel inserts, particularly. With much of the market now on digital mixers, chances of finding esoteric analog gear with a local or regional provider is such a crap-shoot that savvy BEs bring with or will do without.
Picky or vintage mic lists: same as boutique analog stuff. It it's critical to the show the band should carry it. Expect to provide common mics.
Hospitality: buy-outs rather than providing catering - is often cheaper, too.

And you're absolutely right, calling the PM/TD is the best way to represent ones firm and the event. The "KF850 sidefills" might get crossed off the list for the 24X16' stage - or not - but you can bet that whatever is presumed will probably the opposite of what is needed.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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Amen brutha Tim :) I'm around a bunch, just usually reading as opposed to writing, but I figured I finally register over here. The band I've been playing in has been roped into providing for some B/C regionals as the opener, and it's been a good learning experience (other than sourcing crappy FOH gear because the club has no real budget). It didn't take my MBA to learn that picking up the phone is one of the more important steps in a service business...but its also the one step in my profession that I see happening less and less, and then people wondering afterward why things went poorly. Especially at JV level, I think it's important to reiterate over and over that it's a service being provided. If everyone's expectations are clear before showtime the stressful parts become much less so.
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

Regarding communication:

Last summer I was re-hired by a neighborhood PAC to provide for their "2nd Annual" fest. I had done it the year before when they were on a shoe-string budget, bringing 2 tops and 2 subs for the 12 x 16 portable stage they'd hired. The second year they had qualified for some municipal funding as part of a city-wide celebration, so they got giddy and started booking all sorts of stuff that needed much more than the rig I had provided. I informed them that the gear they wanted me to bring would in no way suffice for the acts they were booking, but was told "they'll just have to live with it".


As per usual, I asked to be put in touch with someone in the band who could give me, at minimum, an input list and some cursory monitor requirements. When I got a call from the manager of the hip-hop group they had booked and they found out that the stage was 12 x 16, they bailed as they were a 10 piece group with "friends who like to come up and dance with us on the front of the stage". Of course, the upshot of this is that the 20-something who was booking things got PO'd at me, so I just asked them to find someone else to assist in their tom-foolery. Communication got me out of that debacle.....

post-script

The day of the event I got a call from the volunteer head of the fest asking why the 6KW welding generator the eventual provider brought was so much louder than the (Honda) 3KW generator I used the year before. They had to relocate it from beside the stage to about 150' away, splicing together a bunch of 50' AC cables to get there........all across a veritable wet-land once the overflow from the wading pool started running toward the low spot.
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

I hardly ever get a rider so when I do, I read it carefully. Some years ago I was somehow called for a BIG national act (sold out MSG more than once) doing a stop over show in a ~250 person bar. (I have no idea why they were hired or I got called.) It was incredible:

Meyer preferred
Capable of reaching 130 db at FOH
8 bi amp monitor mixes (for 3 people)
Many moving heads
spotlight
HUGE lighting
separate LD able to read and follow the cue sheet

It went on. I called the contact and said "You do know this a local bar that holds maybe 250 people and the stage is 12x15 right?" The guy said yes. I told him I had nothing like he asked for and went into why it didn't work on that stage and in that room. When we were done, he said "You passed. We sent the arena rider, you noticed it didn't fit and why. Now I trust your judgement. What do you have?" I told him I had an SRX system that could blow the walls out for anything approaching sanity, 4 honking loud monitors, a GL2200/434 console, and enough lights that they would be easily seen but that I was a one man operation with no LD, and would be a little too busy to follow a cue sheet. It would never go dark on them and I catch the solos when they step out front. He hired me and never asked another question.

Just being able to tell that the rider was wrong and why was enough for him. Since then, the few riders I have gotten are always considered by me as a starting point for discussion, and will almost never be what is actually used. I know that changes for the big boys, but not at this level. It is a good way to weed out those who have some idea what they are talking about even if the PA they bring comes in a tow behind trailer with one guy.

In hind sight, they were so loud that a few more monitors and watts would have helped, but the show went over fine. Everyone got paid. Promoter was happy. A good time was had by all.
 
Re: Help me understand 'Riders'

I remember getting riders for acts who "used to be popular" and using the rider as an excuse to be flippant a-holes at every opportunity. I once received a rider for a 4th string track act with this language: "X act must be able to reach out and touch the audience. If a stage is over 48" high, the stage must be removed and replaced with a different stage to enable X to physically interact with the audience" followed by "X will be the main act of the night, and MUST be placed on the main stage with the best possible timeslot" etc, etc ad infinitum. Unfortunately for them, they were not the main act and it was my pleasure to tell them so to their faces.

I haven't received a rider like this in several years now, most likely because attendance at dance events has gone down, therefore the amount of $$$ they can command also has decreased, leaving them less like rockstars then they would like.
 
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