Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Hello
Potato masher was also known as "peppermill"
Hello
Potato masher was also known as "peppermill"
Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
- Thread starter Jesse Davila
- Start date
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Yes and add about 80% humidity to 35 mph winds. Thats why they call them The Cheap Seats
Yes and add about 80% humidity to 35 mph winds. Thats why they call them The Cheap Seats
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
The denser the air (higher humidity) allows the highs to travel will less absorption.
4Khz is about the "knee" that humidity makes a difference.
It is LOW humidity that is the killer of HF.
Unless you are considering 80% to be low (as compared to say 95%)
The higher humidity actually HELPS the freq response at distance.
The denser the air (higher humidity) allows the highs to travel will less absorption.
4Khz is about the "knee" that humidity makes a difference.
It is LOW humidity that is the killer of HF.
Unless you are considering 80% to be low (as compared to say 95%)
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Ivan
The higher the humidity the lower the density.
The water molecule has a lower mass then nitrogen or oxygen.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Ivan
The higher the humidity the lower the density.
The water molecule has a lower mass then nitrogen or oxygen.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
What? Water has a lower mass than Oxygen? Please explain.
What? Water has a lower mass than Oxygen? Please explain.
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
A simple observation is that clouds generally float up into the atmosphere and only drop down as surface hugging fog when cooled and loaded up with molecular water...
Water is clearly heavier than air as observed in rain. Warmer water vapor OTOH floats like ivory soap in the bath tub on cooler air.
I'll leave it to the physics geeks to parse sound absorption details wrt RH.
JR
A simple observation is that clouds generally float up into the atmosphere and only drop down as surface hugging fog when cooled and loaded up with molecular water...
Water is clearly heavier than air as observed in rain. Warmer water vapor OTOH floats like ivory soap in the bath tub on cooler air.
I'll leave it to the physics geeks to parse sound absorption details wrt RH.
JR
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Right, and a water molecule has two oxygen atoms(H2O), so how does a water molecule have less mass than oxygen?
I don't qualify as a "physics geek", but sound travels about four time farther in water than it does in air, so it is only logical that, as Ivan stated, "the higher humidity actually HELPS the freq response at distance".
Right, and a water molecule has two oxygen atoms(H2O), so how does a water molecule have less mass than oxygen?
I don't qualify as a "physics geek", but sound travels about four time farther in water than it does in air, so it is only logical that, as Ivan stated, "the higher humidity actually HELPS the freq response at distance".
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Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Despite being a physics major I can't offer much help on understand how humidity changes the transmission response of air however.
Philip
Water is two Hydrogen atoms and a single oxygen not the other way around.
Despite being a physics major I can't offer much help on understand how humidity changes the transmission response of air however.
Philip
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Water has one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, so while the molecular weight of O2 is 16+16=32, the molecular weight of water is 16+1+1=18. Nitrogen is slightly lighter than oxygen 14+14=28 and CO2 is very heavy in this comparison at 12+16+16=44. Not that there is a lot of CO2 in the air normally, but it might get higher inside a full auditorium.
However, normal dry air have an average molecular weight of just under 29, so the water vapour is significantly lighter.
When discussing sound, O2 is rather less relevant than N2, it is actually the nitrogen that mainly governs how sound behave,
....and oxygen is only responsible for the misbehaviour :razz: .
A hard core audiophile would not only have oxygen-free copper in his cables, but be listening in an oxygen-free atmosphere
~:-D~:grin:
Water has one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, so while the molecular weight of O2 is 16+16=32, the molecular weight of water is 16+1+1=18. Nitrogen is slightly lighter than oxygen 14+14=28 and CO2 is very heavy in this comparison at 12+16+16=44. Not that there is a lot of CO2 in the air normally, but it might get higher inside a full auditorium.
However, normal dry air have an average molecular weight of just under 29, so the water vapour is significantly lighter.
When discussing sound, O2 is rather less relevant than N2, it is actually the nitrogen that mainly governs how sound behave,
....and oxygen is only responsible for the misbehaviour :razz: .
A hard core audiophile would not only have oxygen-free copper in his cables, but be listening in an oxygen-free atmosphere
~:-D~:grin:Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
To add, nitrogen gas makes up around 70 percent of the air most of us breathe
Water has one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, so while the molecular weight of O2 is 16+16=32, the molecular weight of water is 16+1+1=18. Nitrogen is slightly lighter than oxygen 14+14=28 and CO2 is very heavy in this comparison at 12+16+16=44. Not that there is a lot of CO2 in the air normally, but it might get higher inside a full auditorium.
However, normal dry air have an average molecular weight of just under 29, so the water vapour is significantly lighter.
When discussing sound, O2 is rather less relevant than N2, it is actually the nitrogen that mainly governs how sound behave,
....and oxygen is only responsible for the misbehaviour :razz: .
A hard core audiophile would not only have oxygen-free copper in his cables, but be listening in an oxygen-free atmosphere
To add, nitrogen gas makes up around 70 percent of the air most of us breathe
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
78% actually. When sound travels, the speed is governed mainly by the speed of sound in nitrogen because nitrogen is the main component. Most of the other components slow it down, and also causes losses because the different molecules move at different speeds and "dilutes" the sonic energy because the different molecules will be slightly out of phase. Also, the collisions between two different molecules causes losses that don't happen when two identical molecules collide (at least the losses are orders of magnitude smaller). It is a bit like building a Newton's Cradle with one of the balls being slightly different to the rest.
78% actually. When sound travels, the speed is governed mainly by the speed of sound in nitrogen because nitrogen is the main component. Most of the other components slow it down, and also causes losses because the different molecules move at different speeds and "dilutes" the sonic energy because the different molecules will be slightly out of phase. Also, the collisions between two different molecules causes losses that don't happen when two identical molecules collide (at least the losses are orders of magnitude smaller). It is a bit like building a Newton's Cradle with one of the balls being slightly different to the rest.
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Call me confused.
water is more dense, vibrations are almost lossless. Except that it propagates out in all directions in still waters. I would think the inverse square was a cube but I am no scientist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
But where I get confused is that water vapor is another animal. I've done so many outdoor gigs in high humidity, ( Eastern PA ) fog horn capital of the pro audio world. And every time night time came and the dew point fell the sound got better, clearer, cleaner, as in more highs. I don't know if it went further just that early evening it sounded like a rug was over the system, and after the humidity dropped the rug came off.
splain that one please Billy Nye
Call me confused.
water is more dense, vibrations are almost lossless. Except that it propagates out in all directions in still waters. I would think the inverse square was a cube but I am no scientist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
But where I get confused is that water vapor is another animal. I've done so many outdoor gigs in high humidity, ( Eastern PA ) fog horn capital of the pro audio world. And every time night time came and the dew point fell the sound got better, clearer, cleaner, as in more highs. I don't know if it went further just that early evening it sounded like a rug was over the system, and after the humidity dropped the rug came off.
splain that one please Billy Nye
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Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Water is not more dense in the gas phase.
You are not dealing with the relative densities of the pure substances but with the density of the mixture.
At the same temperature, the molecules have the same average kinetic energies. This average kinetic energy is a distribution of the kinetic energies of the individual molecules. Within that distribution the lower molecular mass molecules have a higher root mean square velocity to have that same average kinetic energy.
Since a gas can expand to fill the space available at a particular pressure/temperature, the number of molecules in equal volumes at the same temperature/pressure is the same(Avogadro's principle), the density of the gas is determined by the molecular weight of the particles. The more water in the gas, the lower the density.
This is a basic driving principle behind meteorology/ climatology. It was also clearly misunderstood by most of the people commenting on the climate change thread rendering those comments meaningless in my mind.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Water is not more dense in the gas phase.
You are not dealing with the relative densities of the pure substances but with the density of the mixture.
At the same temperature, the molecules have the same average kinetic energies. This average kinetic energy is a distribution of the kinetic energies of the individual molecules. Within that distribution the lower molecular mass molecules have a higher root mean square velocity to have that same average kinetic energy.
Since a gas can expand to fill the space available at a particular pressure/temperature, the number of molecules in equal volumes at the same temperature/pressure is the same(Avogadro's principle), the density of the gas is determined by the molecular weight of the particles. The more water in the gas, the lower the density.
This is a basic driving principle behind meteorology/ climatology. It was also clearly misunderstood by most of the people commenting on the climate change thread rendering those comments meaningless in my mind.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
And a cloud or fog is water in the semicondensed phase, a suspension of microdrops of liquid water in air. In a suspension the particles of water are orders of magnitude larger than in the solution that is air.
A suspension has different properties than the solution.
As a final tidbit, water as a gas cannot be seen. What most people call steam is semicondensed. Ask a steamfitter about the danger of pin leaks.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
And a cloud or fog is water in the semicondensed phase, a suspension of microdrops of liquid water in air. In a suspension the particles of water are orders of magnitude larger than in the solution that is air.
A suspension has different properties than the solution.
As a final tidbit, water as a gas cannot be seen. What most people call steam is semicondensed. Ask a steamfitter about the danger of pin leaks.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
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Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Thank you, Jay. That was a good explanation and cleared it up(some what) for me!
Thank you, Jay. That was a good explanation and cleared it up(some what) for me!
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
So based on that Ozone O3 should be 16+16+16=48 and heavier than a lot of gasses in the atmosphere?
====
Thanks Jay for the lucid explanation. I share your low regard for so much of the climate change blather.
=====
@ Glen "dew point" ...
JR
Water has one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, so while the molecular weight of O2 is 16+16=32, the molecular weight of water is 16+1+1=18. Nitrogen is slightly lighter than oxygen 14+14=28 and CO2 is very heavy in this comparison at 12+16+16=44. Not that there is a lot of CO2 in the air normally, but it might get higher inside a full auditorium.
However, normal dry air have an average molecular weight of just under 29, so the water vapour is significantly lighter.
When discussing sound, O2 is rather less relevant than N2, it is actually the nitrogen that mainly governs how sound behave,
....and oxygen is only responsible for the misbehaviour :razz: .
A hard core audiophile would not only have oxygen-free copper in his cables, but be listening in an oxygen-free atmosphere
So based on that Ozone O3 should be 16+16+16=48 and heavier than a lot of gasses in the atmosphere?
====
Thanks Jay for the lucid explanation. I share your low regard for so much of the climate change blather.
=====
@ Glen "dew point" ...
JR
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
@ JR- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point
So based on that Ozone O3 should be 16+16+16=48 and heavier than a lot of gasses in the atmosphere?
====
Thanks Jay for the lucid explanation. I share your low regard for so much of the climate change blather.
=====
@ Glen "dew point" ...
JR
@ JR- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point
Re: Help me understand the concept of speaker “throw” please.
Sorry I was not clear. I was just pointing out the homophone in your post, "due point" where you meant dew point.
JR
Sorry I was not clear. I was just pointing out the homophone in your post, "due point" where you meant dew point.
JR