Spoken by a "sound engineer" about a quartet of fiddle, guitar, bass and drums today at a small Swedish festival in Minneapolis.
Music?????
Music?????
How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
- Thread starter Dick Rees
- Start date
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
How was he if he hadn't been given any preferences by someone with the power to and/or he hadn't heard the artists or their recordings before?
How was he if he hadn't been given any preferences by someone with the power to and/or he hadn't heard the artists or their recordings before?
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
with that small of a outfit, make everything sound good on it's own and then let the band mix themselves. honestly, though it's our job as sound engineers to prepare ourselves for our day. I always try to listen to samples of the acts that I will be working with if I am scheduled to mix or not.
with that small of a outfit, make everything sound good on it's own and then let the band mix themselves. honestly, though it's our job as sound engineers to prepare ourselves for our day. I always try to listen to samples of the acts that I will be working with if I am scheduled to mix or not.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Are you serious? It's music and should sound as such: clear, balanced and free of feedback.
Are you serious? It's music and should sound as such: clear, balanced and free of feedback.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
A well known australian Jazz musician - James Morrison - was asked to play the spanish national anthem a few years back at the Australian Tennis open.
He was given a CD and told which track to play. He committed it to memory so it would look better on tv - not having a music stand.
Immediately after playing he had the Spanish Ambassador in his facing saying "that was NOT the Spanish National anythem".
Turns out there are two and both were on the CD.
The one he played was from the "second spanish republic" period from 1931-1939.
How was he to know any different when told what track to learn ?
I heard that story from James himself a week after it happened and to hear him tell the tale was a real special memory of mine.
Andrew
A well known australian Jazz musician - James Morrison - was asked to play the spanish national anthem a few years back at the Australian Tennis open.
He was given a CD and told which track to play. He committed it to memory so it would look better on tv - not having a music stand.
Immediately after playing he had the Spanish Ambassador in his facing saying "that was NOT the Spanish National anythem".
Turns out there are two and both were on the CD.
The one he played was from the "second spanish republic" period from 1931-1939.
How was he to know any different when told what track to learn ?
I heard that story from James himself a week after it happened and to hear him tell the tale was a real special memory of mine.
Andrew
Tim Weaver
Senior
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Exactly like it does to the musicians on stage..... Only louder.
Exactly like it does to the musicians on stage..... Only louder.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
"exactly like it does on stage only louder" ...... is nonsense and 100% impossible as well as undesirable. How was this guy supposed to know what it should sound like ?
"exactly like it does on stage only louder" ...... is nonsense and 100% impossible as well as undesirable. How was this guy supposed to know what it should sound like ?
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Agreed.
Kip is correct also. The soundman should have had the opportunity to at least hear a recording of what they group wanted their audience to hear.
Agreed.
Kip is correct also. The soundman should have had the opportunity to at least hear a recording of what they group wanted their audience to hear.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
So how would you mix an orchestra? Or for that matter, virtually any genre of music that evolved before the age of amplification?
So how would you mix an orchestra? Or for that matter, virtually any genre of music that evolved before the age of amplification?
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Not wanting to argue, but.....
If you don't know what music is supposed to sound like you have very little business mixing it. The instruments and equipment are incidental to the music.
Not wanting to argue, but.....
If you don't know what music is supposed to sound like you have very little business mixing it. The instruments and equipment are incidental to the music.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
That's the assumption I also would make if I was mixing this act, but you were talking about KNOWING. How would you KNOW this to be the correct assumtion without any hints or instructions.
You heard a guy mix something and you didn't like how it sounded. Big deal.
That's the assumption I also would make if I was mixing this act, but you were talking about KNOWING. How would you KNOW this to be the correct assumtion without any hints or instructions.
You heard a guy mix something and you didn't like how it sounded. Big deal.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
I didn't know you were the one handing out the "licenses to mix"...
So many artists these days want "gate this, compress that, reverb this, make that sound like so and so" etc, without instructions it's a little hard to KNOW for sure you are doing the right thing according to their preferences. All music doesn't just "sound like music".
I'll will agree that with certain types of music just amplifying and balancing is a good starting point. But how do you know if they prefer the amplified instruments to sound like they sound acoustically at 50 meters where you can hear them from where with the faders down, or like they sound up close while playing them? Should the guitar amp sound like it does to the guy in the first row or to the guitar player standing virtually over the amp? And what if the drummer plays too hard for the rest of the group (in your own opinion)? Is this a musical expression that should be represented in your mix, or is it something to counter by amplifying the other instruments more than the drums? How do you KNOW all this without some reassurance?
What's the band? I'm curious to check out their music, now.
I didn't know you were the one handing out the "licenses to mix"...
So many artists these days want "gate this, compress that, reverb this, make that sound like so and so" etc, without instructions it's a little hard to KNOW for sure you are doing the right thing according to their preferences. All music doesn't just "sound like music".
I'll will agree that with certain types of music just amplifying and balancing is a good starting point. But how do you know if they prefer the amplified instruments to sound like they sound acoustically at 50 meters where you can hear them from where with the faders down, or like they sound up close while playing them? Should the guitar amp sound like it does to the guy in the first row or to the guitar player standing virtually over the amp? And what if the drummer plays too hard for the rest of the group (in your own opinion)? Is this a musical expression that should be represented in your mix, or is it something to counter by amplifying the other instruments more than the drums? How do you KNOW all this without some reassurance?
What's the band? I'm curious to check out their music, now.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
You know-make it better than it really is.
If the audiene heard what the band really sounded like-they may not come back.
But back to the origional question. Having a nice blend of the instruments is one thing. But having it sound "right" could be totally different.
How much do the vocal stick out in front? A lot? Or just enough so you can hear them?
What about the vocalist who is out of tune-but sings loudly? That is the sound on stage-do we really want to have them louder in the PA? In my opinion it is the operators job to try and "bury" that vocal a bit-so it does not sound as bad out front.
Is there a "lead" (and not as in solo) instrument that everthing else follows-that needs to be a tad louder than the others?
What about the drum sound? Do the musicians want it to sound different than it really does? Remember that mic choice and placement will make quite a difference in the tonality of the instrument. Do they want it to sound "full and rice" even though it actually sounds a bit thin? Do they want to to "punch through with some attach"-or be a background instrument? Think about a "ringy" tom on a drum set. Do we not try and get rid of some of the ring? If we did, then that would NOT be the sound that is on stage-good or bad.
And it goes on and on.
Getting a good sound-and getting "the right" sound are very often 2 different things.
If any artist wants to get picky about their sound-when performing through a sound system-then they must bring a QUALIFIED person who will give them that "sound". If not-then they are at the mercy of the operators "interpretation" of the sound they present to him to mix.
But on the other hand-it is up to the operator to provide a decent blend of the instruments so as not to "make them sound like a rock band" which is a comment I have heard way to many times aobut sound company operators-not me-thankfully.
In a lot of cases, it is the sound persons job to try and CORRECT a lot of the sound on stage.
You know-make it better than it really is.
If the audiene heard what the band really sounded like-they may not come back.
But back to the origional question. Having a nice blend of the instruments is one thing. But having it sound "right" could be totally different.
How much do the vocal stick out in front? A lot? Or just enough so you can hear them?
What about the vocalist who is out of tune-but sings loudly? That is the sound on stage-do we really want to have them louder in the PA? In my opinion it is the operators job to try and "bury" that vocal a bit-so it does not sound as bad out front.
Is there a "lead" (and not as in solo) instrument that everthing else follows-that needs to be a tad louder than the others?
What about the drum sound? Do the musicians want it to sound different than it really does? Remember that mic choice and placement will make quite a difference in the tonality of the instrument. Do they want it to sound "full and rice" even though it actually sounds a bit thin? Do they want to to "punch through with some attach"-or be a background instrument? Think about a "ringy" tom on a drum set. Do we not try and get rid of some of the ring? If we did, then that would NOT be the sound that is on stage-good or bad.
And it goes on and on.
Getting a good sound-and getting "the right" sound are very often 2 different things.
If any artist wants to get picky about their sound-when performing through a sound system-then they must bring a QUALIFIED person who will give them that "sound". If not-then they are at the mercy of the operators "interpretation" of the sound they present to him to mix.
But on the other hand-it is up to the operator to provide a decent blend of the instruments so as not to "make them sound like a rock band" which is a comment I have heard way to many times aobut sound company operators-not me-thankfully.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
I think this is largely true of modern styles of music: rock, pop, electronic, rap, hip-hop, etc.
There are many forms of instrumental music that do not employ electronic instruments and require no amplification in the right venue (concert hall for example). Then there are other forms still that have some vocal component and all that really needs done is to balance vocals with the (louder) instruments.
Rock music takes a whole lot of work to make it sound "good." I think this is largely due to the fact that many musicians in that part of the industry are self taught and while they may play the correct notes, chords, and rhythm, they don't know the first thing about dynamics. I'd imagine that it might be possible to naturally balance a drum set, electric guitar, electric bass, and amplified voice (the voice using one microphone and a powered speaker for example). However, I've never seen it done well.
The drums are the biggest change, IMO, from their natural acoustic sound to amplified sound. I think this is due to three things:
1) The way the kick is mic'd, EQed, and gated (typically)
2) The additional isolation achieved from gating each tom mic (and close micing every drum)
3) The re-balancing of cymbals with the drums. (The way most drummers play naturally, the cymbals are about 20dB louder than the rest of the kit, save maybe the snare).
In any case, rock, classical, jazz, or a talking head, there should never be feedback, never any obvious buzz or hum, the music should be balanced in both level and spectrum, and you should be able to hear it. If you get that far, the rest is just taste.
I think this is largely true of modern styles of music: rock, pop, electronic, rap, hip-hop, etc.
There are many forms of instrumental music that do not employ electronic instruments and require no amplification in the right venue (concert hall for example). Then there are other forms still that have some vocal component and all that really needs done is to balance vocals with the (louder) instruments.
Rock music takes a whole lot of work to make it sound "good." I think this is largely due to the fact that many musicians in that part of the industry are self taught and while they may play the correct notes, chords, and rhythm, they don't know the first thing about dynamics. I'd imagine that it might be possible to naturally balance a drum set, electric guitar, electric bass, and amplified voice (the voice using one microphone and a powered speaker for example). However, I've never seen it done well.
The drums are the biggest change, IMO, from their natural acoustic sound to amplified sound. I think this is due to three things:
1) The way the kick is mic'd, EQed, and gated (typically)
2) The additional isolation achieved from gating each tom mic (and close micing every drum)
3) The re-balancing of cymbals with the drums. (The way most drummers play naturally, the cymbals are about 20dB louder than the rest of the kit, save maybe the snare).
In any case, rock, classical, jazz, or a talking head, there should never be feedback, never any obvious buzz or hum, the music should be balanced in both level and spectrum, and you should be able to hear it. If you get that far, the rest is just taste.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
How about in those cases, then artists should be carrying their own sound engineer who knows what they want then? If they are relying on a local engineer who may have never heard them before, then they get what they get.
How about in those cases, then artists should be carrying their own sound engineer who knows what they want then? If they are relying on a local engineer who may have never heard them before, then they get what they get.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
CD's or on-line clips are handy, but IME both as a sound guy and a musician with over 40 years experience a lot of groups out there can't come close to their CD in live performance. The trouble with studio work by bands is that there is a lot of "studio" in their CD and they just can't get that in live performance.
But getting back to the original situation:
You're given a guitar and a bass (backing), drums (rhythm) and fiddle (lead). How hard is it to get an accurate representation of that out to the audience? What bothered me about the statement cited as a thread title was that the tech was blame shifting his inability to do a simple coherent mix. And it's not "individual taste" in mixes when the snare is twice as loud as any other part of the kit (and louder than the guitar), sticking out like a sore thumb and the sound is an amorphous mass of rhythm with NO LEAD WHATSOEVER. That's not just taste in a mix, that's just horses***.
The point (if there is one) is that such a statement shifts the blame from the lack of technical competence off of the person whose job it is to sort things out.
It wasn't the quality of the mix. There was no mix. The statement from the tech was symptomatic regarding his lack of commitment.
CD's or on-line clips are handy, but IME both as a sound guy and a musician with over 40 years experience a lot of groups out there can't come close to their CD in live performance. The trouble with studio work by bands is that there is a lot of "studio" in their CD and they just can't get that in live performance.
But getting back to the original situation:
You're given a guitar and a bass (backing), drums (rhythm) and fiddle (lead). How hard is it to get an accurate representation of that out to the audience? What bothered me about the statement cited as a thread title was that the tech was blame shifting his inability to do a simple coherent mix. And it's not "individual taste" in mixes when the snare is twice as loud as any other part of the kit (and louder than the guitar), sticking out like a sore thumb and the sound is an amorphous mass of rhythm with NO LEAD WHATSOEVER. That's not just taste in a mix, that's just horses***.
The point (if there is one) is that such a statement shifts the blame from the lack of technical competence off of the person whose job it is to sort things out.
It wasn't the quality of the mix. There was no mix. The statement from the tech was symptomatic regarding his lack of commitment.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Exactly my point. How should the local engineer know what it's supposed to sound like?
Exactly my point. How should the local engineer know what it's supposed to sound like?
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
Once again I'd like to refer back to the OP.
Quartet:
Rhythm guitar
Bass
Kit
Lead fiddle
Not a rock band. If you can't do that you likely can't do anything but CD playback.
Once again I'd like to refer back to the OP.
Quartet:
Rhythm guitar
Bass
Kit
Lead fiddle
Not a rock band. If you can't do that you likely can't do anything but CD playback.
Re: How am I supposed to know what it's supposed to sound like?
I think we have all understood your message by now. I was participating in taking the discussion further, to, you know, actually be interesting. If you can't follow that you might be more comfortable reading stuff that's printed on paper.
I think we have all understood your message by now. I was participating in taking the discussion further, to, you know, actually be interesting. If you can't follow that you might be more comfortable reading stuff that's printed on paper.
