Interns, and the use thereof

[Jack Arnott]

Hello All,
I heard a story on the radio today, about a person who had worked on the movie "Black Swan" as an intern, but is now suing for back wages.
The crux of his suit is that if you agree to work for $5.25/hr, even though it is below minimum wage, this is illegal. And you can sue for back wages.
In this case, he says that his job (accounting) fell outside the parameters of intern status.

I did not hear the whole story, so if it was mentioned, I did not pick up on what the parameters of intern status are.

1) Does anyone know what these guidelines are?
2) Does anyone here use interns?
3) What do you think of this case?

Regards, Jack

 

[Ben Lawrence]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I usually think stuff like this is pretty lame. If you agree to do something for a certain amount thats on you. I do not know the particulars but I thought intern status was do whatever your needed for.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Hello All,
I heard a story on the radio today, about a person who had worked on the movie "Black Swan" as an intern, but is now suing for back wages.
The crux of his suit is that if you agree to work for $5.25/hr, even though it is below minimum wage, this is illegal. And you can sue for back wages.
In this case, he says that his job (accounting) fell outside the parameters of intern status.

I did not hear the whole story, so if it was mentioned, I did not pick up on what the parameters of intern status are.

1) Does anyone know what these guidelines are?
2) Does anyone here use interns?
3) What do you think of this case?

Regards, Jack

Jack-

The US Dept of Labor has very specific definitions of what an "intern" is and what they can and cannot do.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf

There is more info on the DoL site, this was just the first Google hit.

It appears that the movie interns have enough of a case to take to trial, although what happens at that point is unpredictable.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Hello All,
I heard a story on the radio today, about a person who had worked on the movie "Black Swan" as an intern, but is now suing for back wages.
The crux of his suit is that if you agree to work for $5.25/hr, even though it is below minimum wage, this is illegal. And you can sue for back wages.
In this case, he says that his job (accounting) fell outside the parameters of intern status.

I did not hear the whole story, so if it was mentioned, I did not pick up on what the parameters of intern status are.

1) Does anyone know what these guidelines are?
2) Does anyone here use interns?
3) What do you think of this case?

Regards, Jack

Hello Jack,

I posted the criteria for the qualification of being legally considered as an intern in the other Forum, sometime back...

But, any Accounting positions in the making of a Union made, Motion Picture are considered Free-lance, "Contracted work".


With that said.... My argument is that he SHOULD receive any difference in the wages he was paid, and what is considered minimum wage, including overtime pay.



1.) there are some job discriptions that can pay below minimum wage, but this job or it's title as Accountant (Associate Accountant) is not one from the legal list.

2.) Major Motion Pictures follow the prevailing wage of the Filming and/or Production location for any Contracted Work.

3.) Although this complaintant was probably hired by the Movie's Production Accountant,(Contractor) the liability also falls on the Movie Production Company. (as they were co-benefitted from his work)

4.) This compaintant has a case if the work that he performed was considered crutial to the operation of the Movie's production.

5.) If there were a need for the complaintant's position, that would have to have been filled by another Accountant, then his position would NOT be considered as an intern.


Eight dollars and some change ....to work as an Associate Accountant was not, and still is not a deal breaker to this Movie's budget. They should have paid him at least the minimum wage in the first place. By my guess...if he worked 40 weeks @ 60 hour work weeks ...2400 hours... x the $3.00 he should have been paid...it only comes out to $7200. .... shit....that's less than 1/3 of what the Director made per week.

Hammer


ps... thanks for the Link Tim.. very clear.

I walked away from my Computer ...and found that I had posted my reply...

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf

For me, bullet points numbers 2 and 4 are the most telling for an internship:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

Most people/companies/organizations look on interns as a source of free or cheap labor. When in reality the intention of the internship if for the intern to learn something or gain some level of experience in a particular field before jumping head first into the cold hard workspace.

If you are doing work that is fundamental to an organization's operations, like accounting, then you deserve to be paid at least the entry level wages for the industry. And frankly, getting coffee and doughnuts for some junior A&R exec doesn't cut it.

I think internships are an important and grossly under utilized aspect of our educational and career training system. The opportunity to work closely with someone who is more experienced and knowledgeable in a field that you are interested in is something that has been lost since the beginning of the industrial revolution. I think we would do well to get back to a more of a Master/Apprentice relationship in many fields.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I think internships are an important and grossly under utilized aspect of our educational and career training system. The opportunity to work closely with someone who is more experienced and knowledgeable in a field that you are interested in is something that has been lost since the beginning of the industrial revolution. I think we would do well to get back to a more of a Master/Apprentice relationship in many fields.

+1000.

I've learned a lot working alongside more experienced people since I started in my first job years ago, things that are not so easy learning any other way. I try to have the same attitude towards people as some have shown me over these years, and that is to pass on experiences to those who need it to help them become better at what they do.

After all, the wheel is invented already. It's pointless to reinvent the wheel everytime you try to do something new for the first time. It's much better to seek people who have done it before and listen to their advice than trying and failing before you finally get it "right" for yourself.

 

[W. Mark Hellinger]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

For me, bullet points numbers 2 and 4 are the most telling for an internship:
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;

4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;


Most people/companies/organizations look on interns as a source of free or cheap labor. When in reality the intention of the internship if for the intern to learn something or gain some level of experience in a particular field before jumping head first into the cold hard workspace.

If you are doing work that is fundamental to an organization's operations, like accounting, then you deserve to be paid at least the entry level wages for the industry. And frankly, getting coffee and doughnuts for some junior A&R exec doesn't cut it.

I think internships are an important and grossly under utilized aspect of our educational and career training system. The opportunity to work closely with someone who is more experienced and knowledgeable in a field that you are interested in is something that has been lost since the beginning of the industrial revolution. I think we would do well to get back to a more of a Master/Apprentice relationship in many fields.

This summer I hired an 18yo as summer "help"... with the understanding this 18yo had limited marketable job skills. My realization early into his employment (like by 8:02am Monday) was considerably less than expected. At a pay scale of "free"... there's no question that this employee would have been over-paid. We worked side-by-side on a wide variety of tasks... I out worked him by a routine factor of 100X... I'm 55yo. and busted-up and somewhat healed from head to toe... he's 18yo and in perfect physical condition... the work peaked at involving arguably very slightly more physical work than punching buttons on a Gameboy. My 18 yo. cat (who sleeps all day) routinely out-produced and arguably out worked the 18yo. male human fashion statement during daylight hours. I paid our 18yo. summer helper minimum wage plus 10%. I reworked appox. 90% of all (what next to nothing there was of it) he "produced"... typically requiring 3X+ the time it would have taken me to do it from scratch in the first place. Training generally involved 10X+++ the time it would have taken to just do it myself. From the beginning it was beyond completely ridiculous... and went steadily down hill from there. He routinely took 2 - 3 hour bathroom breaks... which actually worked out as net positive for me.

How much should I have paid this intern? I'm of the impression that I should have charged him (or his folk's checkbook) about $20K for tuition... and if the state had kicked in their fair share for education from that slush fund... I'd have probably broke even on the deal... all considered.

The really sad part of this is that our summer "help" was probably in the upper 5% of his peer group as far as get-er-done attitude, ambition, and skill set.

I doubt our fearless leader will read this, much less ask me what I really think about what it's gonna take to get this country out of it's funk and awash in career jobs. And I suspect he well knows already... hence the fever for taking potshots at work around solutions.

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I was an intern this past summer, and can tell you that if I ever owned a company, I would utilize as many of them as I could. Assuming I could find the right people.

The owner of the company knew my circumstances, and knew that I needed some sort of income throughout my time there(3 months) as I was about to get married and had some financial needs to take care of. They were extremely helpful. While I only got paid for shows(we're talking 8 dollars an hour here and I certainly did not go out on every show) and my shop time was free for them(shop was over an hour from where I lived), the experience was 10000% worth it. I got really lucky and did some awesome shows.

So yes, I worked for much less than minimum wage, but agreed to this knowing it would be something that would take me farther than doing nothing over the summer. I think in the case talked about above, there probably wasn't the strongest relations between the person who 'hired' the intern and the intern themselves. I'm also curious to know if there was ever a contract signed by the folks involved here, or any paperwork at all for that matter.

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

How much should I have paid this intern? I'm of the impression that I should have charged him (or his folk's checkbook) about $20K for tuition... and if the state had kicked in their fair share for education from that slush fund... I'd have probably broke even on the deal... all considered.

He wasn't an intern, he was an employee. And when you saw it wasn't working you should have let him go. Sounds like a management issue to me...

On interns in general, it was one of the first messes I had to clean up a Proshow USA back in 1990. They were using Art Institute people for free labor in the shop and on shows. When one didn't get a paying gig (after a year of doing it) he complained to the state. There were some fines and such and I then made a policy of no free labor, much to the chagrin of the owner which was a $65 show pay. It's a huge liability issue and depending on how you employ them and what state you are incorporated they might be able to pierce the veil if they can prove you knew they couldn't work like that. If they are working for free as an "intern" and get hurt, you're going to hear from OSHA, workers comp and the tax man.

The sunny circus has an excellent program but it's difficult to get into. Lots of competition and you have to be at the top of your game in a recognized program at a four year school. They pay them enough to live on but not near what the employees make. More often than not, they are offered at least on call/part time work on completion of the program. Intern programs should be about low cost labor giving job experience rather than trying to get free labor doing for profit gigs.

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

So yes, I worked for much less than minimum wage, but agreed to this knowing it would be something that would take me farther than doing nothing over the summer. I think in the case talked about above, there probably wasn't the strongest relations between the person who 'hired' the intern and the intern themselves. I'm also curious to know if there was ever a contract signed by the folks involved here, or any paperwork at all for that matter.

As Tim stated for someone to legally qualify as an intern there are specific guidelines. What you and your employer did was violate state and federal labor laws. Too often I've seen people in the biz take advantage of "interns"or try to classify them as contract labor, with no pay. That won't fly because that is what Proshow USA did was to claim them as contractors when the company clearly controlled the ways and means of the job.

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

As Tim stated for someone to legally qualify as an intern there are specific guidelines. What you and your employer did was violate state and federal labor laws. Too often I've seen people in the biz take advantage of "interns"or try to classify them as contract labor, with no pay. That won't fly because that is what Proshow USA did was to claim them as contractors when the company clearly controlled the ways and means of the job.

6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the
internship.

Ok, then I'm confused, Dave. I'm a little scared thinking that we might have broken laws here, and I know I was much more than a coffee getter... I did the same shop work as everyone else. But that sixth point, doesn't that say that they are not required to pay me?

I'm a wee bit unclear here with reading some of these posts.

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the
internship.

Ok, then I'm confused, Dave. I'm a little scared thinking that we might have broken laws here, and I know I was much more than a coffee getter... I did the same shop work as everyone else. But that sixth point, doesn't that say that they are not required to pay me?

I'm a wee bit unclear here with reading some of these posts.

If you were doing the same work in the shop that everyone else was for less than min wage or free your employer broke the law. By law an internship where you are not paid is to be for educational purposes only and not contribute to the for profit commerce. For example, I can teach you how to load a truck, I can't legally have you load a truck bound for a gig and not pay you. States vary but the gist is if you aren't paying someone, you can't legally have them do for profit work. You have to use the internship as a teaching exercise. Even then, I see and hear about it all the time having folks do gigs and shop work as "interns". Still doesn't make it legal. And way back when I did it myself until I figured out I was being used.

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

If you were doing the same work in the shop that everyone else was for less than min wage or free your employer broke the law. By law an internship where you are not paid is to be for educational purposes only and not contribute to the for profit commerce. For example, I can teach you how to load a truck, I can't legally have you load a truck bound for a gig and not pay you. States vary but the gist is if you aren't paying someone, you can't legally have them do for profit work. You have to use the internship as a teaching exercise. Even then, I see and hear about it all the time having folks do gigs and shop work as "interns". Still doesn't make it legal. And way back when I did it myself until I figured out I was being used.

That, makes sense. I re-wired old speaker systems, I cleaned cable, I fulfilled orders the works. Granted, I did ask a lot of questions, and got a lot of answers, but I also did the work. Not watched someone else do it while I stood by and took notes. They did also pay me for shows, if I was an engineer. The other shows I worked, paid 20 dollars flat. For the whole day.

So now what? Do I raise cain like this intern in the original post did? I'm really kind of almost upset now. I turned down a minimum wage job that would have given me a consistent 40 hours a week before getting married, putting me in a much better financial place, for something that while I did get good experience, under-payed me extremely.

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

As I think about this more, I'm just as in the wrong as the employer here wasn't I...

 

[Jordan Lahr]

What some people don't saloon seem to post is some institutions require students to do internships. Some companies pay you in college credit. Which Is legal doing the work at least some is part of the learning part. Just because you weren't standing around just taking notes doesn't mean you were used. They can't use you like a regular employee. Meaning you can't solo work on anything as you are always an assistant but you can work in the shop and on gigs.

Sent from my ADR6300

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

What some people don't saloon seem to post is some institutions require students to do internships. Some companies pay you in college credit. Which Is legal doing the work at least some is part of the learning part. Just because you weren't standing around just taking notes doesn't mean you were used. They can't use you like a regular employee. Meaning you can't solo work on anything as you are always an assistant but you can work in the shop and on gigs.

Sent from my ADR6300

An employer is not able to use an intern as free labor even if they do get college credit. It happens quite a bit but it's not legal. In my 30 plus year more than 10 years have been in management where we put over 100 interns through the programs at the two companies. The schools include for profits like Full Sail and Art Institute and state and community colleges. Per US labor law the employer can not gain a benefit from the internship. You can be in the shop and at the gig but legally you can't do any real work. For example, if I have you patch a console in the shop to use for your own learning, that's cool. However, if you patch that console as part of a for profit gig that's not legal. Many people do work for college credit but it's not legal.

http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/11/unpaid-internsh.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Most of my experience with internships is in the university research setting (and universities are not necessarily a hotbed of rule following). I have always gotten a sense that the dividing line is based on supervision and repetition. An intern should be able to participate beyond simply observing in a controled manner.

Translating into the same example:

An intern could patch the console at a paying show under the supervision of a paid staff member where the company is not actually gaining labor because the intern is still supervised by a paid employee.

As part of an internship, the intern could be asked to perform any task on a time scale that demonstrates that part of the industry. I think it would be fair to have an intern take part in striking a stage and spend half an hour coiling cables at one show to demonstrate that part of the show process. It would not be fair to use the intern at a series of shows to coil cables. I think the repetition is what pushed it from learning into labor.

However, if I was a company using interns this way, I would document the series of tasks (i.e. create a curriculum) the intern was asked to do to clearly demonstrate the intent was to teach, rather than to gain free labor. Unfortunately, the courts are the only place the interpretations of the rules are clarified, and by time it gets to that point, the company providing the internship is probably burnt anyways.

 

[kristianjohnsen]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

He wasn't an intern, he was an employee. And when you saw it wasn't working you should have let him go. Sounds like a management issue to me...

You're being too hard on Mark and forgetting the real world: Mark lives in a small community, he might know this person and his parents - calling him into the office and screaming "You're FIRED" The Apprentice-style isn't going to be acceptable. Add this to the fact that Mark is a really nice guy who spent all summer being patient and thinking "we can make it work, this guy just needs some time" and the human knee-jerk reaction of "I already spent this much partially training him, let's roll with it a little longer". Also, he stated that this guy incredibly enough was in the top 5% of the pool he had to choose from. I think Mark is just fed up with the issue now and laying it out how he feels in hindsight.

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the
internship.

Ok, then I'm confused, Dave. I'm a little scared thinking that we might have broken laws here, and I know I was much more than a coffee getter... I did the same shop work as everyone else. But that sixth point, doesn't that say that they are not required to pay me?

I'm a wee bit unclear here with reading some of these posts.

Hello John,

Don't be worried that you've broken any laws, as there is no precidence of any worker ever being prosecuted for not following the Laws regarding Internships. It has always been the Employer that is penalized.

In your earlier post, you had mentioned that you appreciated the knowledge & experience that you've gotten from your time with that particular Company. I'd leave it there. You've gained some knowledge and are wiser, even regarding, Business Practices, Laws, etc......leave it there.

They may have knowingly taken advantage of you....or maybe not, but, Lawsuits should be reserved for times when one is truly harmed, physically, or financially. And, even though you could have needed/ wanted the money.... do you want to open a whole can of worms, dragging your new wife and yourself into very personal depositions ? (where they can ask ANY questions they choose, wether relevent to the case or not) Their Attorney's WILL try to humiliate you, and possibly your wife.

Forget about it. Be more aware of the things you SHOULD know. Remember...just because someone makes a statement, or gives an authoritative response, doesn't make it so.

Even Einstein was wrong... It is new knowledge that his Theory of Relativity is just that.... a Theory ...a wrong one.

Good Luck, and remember...Business is Business... means there should be mutual satisfaction or it's not Business...it's one guy being taken advantage of.


Hammer

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Thanks Hammer.

Your response does make sense. THe company had in fact only had 2 interns in their life as a Pro-co, even with being around for over 20 years. I was given a lot more grace than the previous intern regarding funds, given the impending marriage and what not. If anything, I have gleaned a world of wisdom from my experience and hopefully can pass it on to someone in the future. They even offered me a full time job, which I was initially going to take, but had to do some hard thinking about current life circumstances and various other variables in the process. They were a great company and I got to work with some national and Grammy winning artist. It was a whole new playing field and I don't regret it at all.

So I think it's a matter of perspective here, for me at least. I'll leave it there, as you said, and carry on having fun with what I'm doing now.