Interns, and the use thereof

[W. Mark Hellinger]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

You're being too hard on Mark and forgetting the real world: Mark lives in a small community, he might know this person and his parents - calling him into the office and screaming "You're FIRED" The Apprentice-style isn't going to be acceptable. Add this to the fact that Mark is a really nice guy who spent all summer being patient and thinking "we can make it work, this guy just needs some time" and the human knee-jerk reaction of "I already spent this much partially training him, let's roll with it a little longer". Also, he stated that this guy incredibly enough was in the top 5% of the pool he had to choose from. I think Mark is just fed up with the issue now and laying it out how he feels in hindsight.

Yes Kristian, you're correct... there was some small-town multi-generation relationships to be considered. That, plus he's a great kid... good attitude, pretty sharp, never late for work... just weak on the "get-er-done" and self confidence categories. I do believe my lead by example management style was some help through the summer.

I personally don't think Dave was being too hard on me though... there's no doubt my management skills are work in progress.

And... I didn't get to my point (I guess I forgot that detail during my spewing/venting), which is that I agree with Justice's comment that "we would do well to get back to a more of a Master/Apprentice relationship in many fields"... but points # 2 and # 4 don't leave much if anything in the way of incentives for business... and as Dave commented "It's a huge liability issue".

I suspect that most would like to see the development of jobs aplenty in the US... but that project might not be shovel ready to pour the footings for the foundation.

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

And... I didn't get to my point (I guess I forgot that detail during my spewing/venting), which is that I agree with Justice's comment that "we would do well to get back to a more of a Master/Apprentice relationship in many fields"... but points # 2 and # 4 don't leave much if anything in the way of incentives for business... and as Dave commented "It's a huge liability issue".

Minimum wage and workers comp is a way to satisfy the law. Go in with the knowledge they will be learning, are entry level and the pay fits the amount of experience. In this case little money for little or no experience. It may not have to be an 8 hr day either. Try to schedule the tasks in say a 4 hour block if money is a concern so they get the things done that you need and don't have to have them standing around not working and not learning.

 

[Dave Stevens]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

An intern could patch the console at a paying show under the supervision of a paid staff member where the company is not actually gaining labor because the intern is still supervised by a paid employee.

As part of an internship, the intern could be asked to perform any task on a time scale that demonstrates that part of the industry. I think it would be fair to have an intern take part in striking a stage and spend half an hour coiling cables at one show to demonstrate that part of the show process. It would not be fair to use the intern at a series of shows to coil cables. I think the repetition is what pushed it from learning into labor.

Case law is against you on this Jay. Both of those instances the employer benefited (however slightly) from the intern doing the work. I doubt such a narrow example would be prosecuted though if something were to happen, injury, shock there could be questions about what they were doing at the time and why they were in that position.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

The overarching end goal of an internship, is for educational purposes. The Department of Labor states that "the internship will be viewed as an extension of the individual’s educational experience (this often occurs where a college or university exercises oversight over the internship program and provides educational credit)."

This kind of dictates that an internship should be connected with some form of educational institution enrollment, and that the intern will receive a grade and occupational course credit for the internship. That educational program can be through a four-year university, a community college, a technical or trade school, or even a state run job training/retraining program, or even as part of a private not-for-profit organizational job and skills training program. What Mark described, probably wasn't technically an "internship", unless he reported to a school official and gave his young worker a passing or failing grade. But that doesn't negate the importance of what he did for the young man, and he is to be commended on helping a young worker get some sort of experience and gainful employment for the summer (especially with our current economic situation where too many young workers can't find ANY jobs).

I did two internships while in college. Our program (arts management) actually required that the internships be unpaid (I think they have relaxed this requirement since then). I did both of my internships at two local recording studios, one was privately run by a local engineer, the other run by the local community college (which really only did sessions for their own students and faculty). With the private studio I observed him during a couple of his recording sessions, and worked on a project for one of his former students that had a couple of songs, but not the money to record them. I also made up a bunch of my own paper work; contracts, rate sheets, input sheets, notes etc...for recording studio operations. For the studio at the community college I was the project manager, handling contacts, scheduling and paperwork for another student run recording project that lasted most of the summer. In neither case was I working in a for profit capacity or working in such a way that garnered a profit for the studio. And, at no time was I in the big chair mixing and editing the sessions and producing for the studios (no was I running around getting coffee and bagels or answering phones etc...)

At the end of the summer both of the engineers with whom I was doing my internship filled out an evaluation form and sent it to my professor at the University of Tulsa along with their recommendation for a final grade. Needless to say I got As in both internships.

 

[W. Mark Hellinger]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I did two internships while in college.

As I recall my internships in college were:

1) Student teaching: I paid for the opportunity to be graded on my performance.

2) DJ at the campus radio station: Pay-to-play situation to fill air time. Required course.

3) "Shop night"... required class... 1 night a week (four hours) building stuff for "the experience" for the university and surrounding community.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Case law is against you on this Jay. Both of those instances the employer benefited (however slightly) from the intern doing the work. I doubt such a narrow example would be prosecuted though if something were to happen, injury, shock there could be questions about what they were doing at the time and why they were in that position.

I don't doubt you, and if it is true, then this is another example of when we may never know just what the intent of the law was, where the lawmakers perceived the ill defined boundary to be, but are instead locked into the precidence established by courts.

I would have to wonder why any for profit company would ever sponsor an intern given the limitations and potential liabilities. As I said my experience is mostly academia, where it is business as usual to use interns to do research that is paid for by outside grants, including those from the federal government which established these rules for interns.

 

[Charlie Zureki]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I don't doubt you, and if it is true, then this is another example of when we may never know just what the intent of the law was, where the lawmakers perceived the ill defined boundary to be, but are instead locked into the precidence established by courts.

I would have to wonder why any for profit company would ever sponsor an intern given the limitations and potential liabilities. As I said my experience is mostly academia, where it is business as usual to use interns to do research that is paid for by outside grants, including those from the federal government which established these rules for interns.

Hello,

I don't have an answer for many Companies as to why they'd sponsor an intern with the potential liabilities or even added work costs of co-worker and supervisor disruptions... But, in my experience, the Companies I have been familiar with, hoped to give knowledge to these Interns as to what is deemed as beneficial to that particular Company, what important areas for further study, what ideals,what concepts should be mastered if they were to seek future employment with the host Company.


I know that GM used to Own a Tech College. The Internship program was highly competititve, paid school costs, and full time work (at a lesser task) was available for them during holiday seasons and summer breaks. Upon graduation, these students were all but assured of a position at GM. ...of course, that's when GM was still into developing Electronics, Computers, Chemicals, Trains, Aero Space, Military, Communications Systems, etc...

Hammer

 

[John Roberts]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

Interns are supposed to be the white collar equivalent of apprentices, but I agree if they cost too much, and aren't allowed to do productive work this will limit the value of their experience to them, or economic rationale for employers to participate.

Employers will always want an opportunity to kick the tires before hiring people full time. The more restrictive regulations imposed upon firing, the more value in trial employments. I am of the opinion that strict firing restrictions in Europe are one reason for high youth unemployment there.

Of course opinions vary.

JR

PS: I recall during my brief matriculation as an engineering student, I held two co-op jobs, one as a draftsman and another as a QC inspector. Neither of these were minimum wage jobs and permanent positions for adults at both businesses. In both jobs I did real work, and earned my paycheck. From my perspective they were low rungs on my career ladder. The employer got an overqualified individual, for brief fixed intervals, I got an opportunity to gain practical experience and understanding of a couple industries from the inside (a win-win IMO). I even came up with an invention to simplify one of the boring rote jobs I had to perform in the QC gig, but couldn't interest the employer to develop it (as a freshman engineering puke, I didn't have the skills myself, yet). In hindsight I still think it was a good idea, but I like most of my ideas, even when others don't.

 

[W. Mark Hellinger]

Re: Interns, and the use thereof

I don't doubt you, and if it is true, then this is another example of when we may never know just what the intent of the law was, where the lawmakers perceived the ill defined boundary to be, but are instead locked into the precidence established by courts.

I would have to wonder why any for profit company would ever sponsor an intern given the limitations and potential liabilities. As I said my experience is mostly academia, where it is business as usual to use interns to do research that is paid for by outside grants, including those from the federal government which established these rules for interns.

I think you've hit the nail on the head... and put into words what I couldn't with my endless speals.

IOW: If I want to learn how to do something in the real world... for free if they'll just let me... legally they can't.

I don't know... I wasn't there when it happened... but I suspect there was a time when forced public education was intended to replace private business apprenticeship... possibly lobbied to a large part by big business (get the public to pay for educating our up-coming work force… because we just fought a war and almost got caught with our pants down around our ankles?). Then... after time, the public education system veered away from cranking out job ready graduates... and now there's a problem that neither the public education system nor the apprentice system are cranking out job ready graduates.

This might be a silly question, maybe not... I don't know "the law"... but here goes:

It appears that it's illegal to have anyone engaged in an activity where the person doing the work is paid less than minimum wage to do that activity if someone else is benefiting from that activity. If so, then how does that effect all sorts of amateurs or others that, for example, might be performing at a club or event, where the club or event is profiting from the activity but the amateur or otherwise might be performing for free or a price that is well below minimum wage? Is it illegal for me to mow my neighbor's lawn for free... even if she's a crippled-up widow that can't do it for herself and she's on a fixed income and can't afford to pay a professional to mow her lawn? Am I risking being cuffed and hauled to jail and my lawnmower confisicated?

And... if apprenticeship programs fell to the wayside of public education sometime during the industrial revolution... where-up public education was producing the work force life skills in the masses, but during the social revolution of the 60's, 70's, and 80's, public education shifted away from preparing students for employment... maybe all that stuff has or is falling through the cracks... maybe because it's no-longer needed? Or maybe getting a degree in your mid 20’s and then starting in on being job trained at an entry level in the work force is fine... but I suspect that results in a job training that's fairly narrowly focused... which sounds like a high potential for evolutionary obsolescence to me.