Knob turning on iPad?

[Kirby Yarbrough]

For anyone using an iPad and a VNC, is it possible to use the knob based controls in the LS9 Editor with SM (specifically with an LS9)? I'd want to be able to adjust compressor thresholds, change an output delay, change input channel or output mix PEQ settings, and so on.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Using VNC, you use your finger just like you would a mouse.

Personally, I can't stand any software that uses rotating knobs as an interface. As a display, maybe, but it's always so convoluted to try and manipulate them. Straight sliders. It's not like they cost more to manufacture.....

 

[Steve Milner]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Using VNC, you use your finger just like you would a mouse.

Personally, I can't stand any software that uses rotating knobs as an interface. As a display, maybe, but it's always so convoluted to try and manipulate them. Straight sliders. It's not like they cost more to manufacture.....

While I agree that knobs can be a pain in the butt when using a tablet, once you wrap your head around the way SM likes to work, it can be quite accurate. The trick with my Motion Labs tablet, as is the case using ANY mouse with SM, is to click on the knob you want to adjust then draw the mouse or pen in a straight line away from the knob and then take the mouse in a circular motion the direction you need to go. The farther away from the knob you draw the mouse in a straight line, the bigger arc you will create "turning the knob" and the more fine the control of the knob becomes. Once you adjust your approach, it can be just as quick as anything else in SM.

Practice a little bit and you can get pretty great resolution on those knobs. 8)~~

I'm only assuming from all of the iPad posts on here, that things work the same way as they would normally when controlling via a VNC. I personally have not had the pleasure of iPadding it up at a gig just yet.

 

[Brian jojade]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Yes, that's how it works. But wouldn't it be easier to click on the button and slide the mouse straight up or straight down instead of a convoluted arcing motion? It would be so much easier that way.

 

[Rick Stansby]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Yes, that's how it works. But wouldn't it be easier to click on the button and slide the mouse straight up or straight down instead of a convoluted arcing motion? It would be so much easier that way.

I don't think so, because you don't have any control over resolution. As Steve explained.

 

[Steve Milner]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Yes, that's how it works. But wouldn't it be easier to click on the button and slide the mouse straight up or straight down instead of a convoluted arcing motion? It would be so much easier that way.

Brian;
Although I understand the logic in thinking that faders would be better, in practice, it just wouldn't be my choice. Not even counting the Aux/Mix Send "knobs"... the Selected Channel View for the LS9 Editor has 27... yes TWENTY SEVEN functions controlled by virtual knobs. I'm all about aux sends on faders for sure, and would love to see this better integrated across all of the SM editors, but for the other 27 knobs... I'd rather just learn the procedure and then get proficient at it.

 

[Kirby Yarbrough]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Airfader application (http://airfader.com/) for the LS9 replaces almost all of the knobs with faders. While I haven't tried that or the LS9 Editor under SM with Andrew Broughton's Sends on Faders on an iPad, I will be do so shortly. I do like the UI on Airfader.

 

[Brad Harris]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

But at $149 (regular price) thats quite a price to pay on top of everything else ......

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Airfader application (http://airfader.com/) for the LS9 replaces almost all of the knobs with faders. While I haven't tried that or the LS9 Editor under SM with Andrew Broughton's Sends on Faders on an iPad, I will be do so shortly. I do like the UI on Airfader.

 

[Steve Milner]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Ok... so Airfader looks like a pretty slick UI. The offering of multiple resolutions on the faders is a really cool idea too. I still prefer though, to be proficient with the factory supplied tools, rather then seek 3rd party solutions.

If it were for my personal rig, and I didn't do much walk-on work... I'd probably be more interested... but becoming dependent on a tool that likely will not be supplied with the console in a walk-on situation, just isn't something that will serve me well at all. These kind of apps are awesome though, seeing what other programmers can write for an SM UI is only going to benefit everyone down the road. Hopefully Yamaha will take some cues, or even team up with some of these outside programmers to integrate this forward thinking into a factory update or revamp of the SM platforms in future releases.

FYI- With a Motion Computing LE1600 controlling various mac and windows computers running SM, I never once had an instance like the one the gentleman in the video describes. Perhaps it is the active digitizer pen that Motion Computing uses, but I have never EVER had any issue where I was turning one knob and ended up loosing control of it and changing an adjacent paramater... and if the low end is hitting so hard at your show that you can't work a tablet pc properly... no amount of tablet controlled trickery is going to make your life any better!! :lol:

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

It seems the author listened and it is now licensed per user so you can install it on your tablet and use it with any console.
I sure have not seen any indication that Yamaha cares much about the LS9 user in that SM for it is pretty lame compared to what they offer for the higher end consoles. They don't seem to want to have any "outside" help. Just my opinion... I also use the LE1600 and I do like SOF though but Air Fader nicely combines SOF functions with SM functions. Oh, and turing dials in SM with the pen is a pain during combat audio.

 

[Tim McCulloch]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

While I agree that knobs can be a pain in the butt when using a tablet, once you wrap your head around the way SM likes to work, it can be quite accurate. The trick with my Motion Labs tablet, as is the case using ANY mouse with SM, is to click on the knob you want to adjust then draw the mouse or pen in a straight line away from the knob and then take the mouse in a circular motion the direction you need to go. The farther away from the knob you draw the mouse in a straight line, the bigger arc you will create "turning the knob" and the more fine the control of the knob becomes. Once you adjust your approach, it can be just as quick as anything else in SM.

Practice a little bit and you can get pretty great resolution on those knobs. 8)~~

I'm only assuming from all of the iPad posts on here, that things work the same way as they would normally when controlling via a VNC. I personally have not had the pleasure of iPadding it up at a gig just yet.

Yes, yes, yes to the bold text! Studio Manager, direct or through VNC, takes advantage of the the Motion tablet stylus interface. I love my LE1600.

 

[Stuart Pendleton]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

At least on my Mac, SM knobs can be rotated a different way. Can't speak to other devices. The process of holding the mouse on the button and then drawing away from it to increase resolution does work but isn't fast. If you get mouse focus on a knob first, I find that using the scroll wheel on the mouse to rotate the knobs works very well and is the most precise method for me by far.

 

[Rick Stansby]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

At least on my Mac, SM knobs can be rotated a different way. Can't speak to other devices. The process of holding the mouse on the button and then drawing away from it to increase resolution does work but isn't fast. If you get mouse focus on a knob first, I find that using the scroll wheel on the mouse to rotate the knobs works very well and is the most precise method for me by far.

Yes, without a tablet/stylus this might be your best option.

 

[Adam Ellsworth]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Airfader application (http://airfader.com/) for the LS9 replaces almost all of the knobs with faders. While I haven't tried that or the LS9 Editor under SM with Andrew Broughton's Sends on Faders on an iPad, I will be do so shortly. I do like the UI on Airfader.

I have received multiple reports that the "parameter fader" works well from an iPad using VNC. But we're also doing some "proof of concept" development for native mobile client interfaces, specifically Android and iOS.

...I also like the UI on AirFader very much, it does exactly what I want it to. ~:-D~:grin:

[Disc: I am the developer of AirFader]

PS - How long has this forum been around? It seems new but I see many familiar names.

 

[Steve Milner]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

It seems the author listened and it is now licensed per user so you can install it on your tablet and use it with any console.

Adam:
Can you connect both it and SM to the console at the same time? If not, this would be a total non-starter for me, for anything other then personal rig use. It is pretty typical for me to show up to a walk-on type gig to find that the provider has a computer running SM & itunes etc. already attached to the console.

Also, what happens if I need to load a show from my computer for some reason... do I have to drop this off the network and fire up SM from scratch?

I think (for me), that it's all about being comfortable with the tools that are out in the wild... something third party that makes life easier is really cool for sure... but are you not doing yourself a disservice by becoming accustomed to some esoteric tool that may or may not even be practical to setup quickly?

I personally want to be as quick and proficient with the standard set of tools as I can be, and using them constantly helps achieve that. I am just as quick with the trackball mouse that is mounted near the UDK's on my console as I am with the actual EQ knobs on the surface, I use them interchangeably, and often find myself grabbing the mouse first as it can be faster to do (batch) changes in the software.

I also believe that in true "combat audio" situations...all of this goes out the window. Tablet control and anything other then mission critical tools go to the very bottom of the priority list.

Like I said before, this kind of development is going to serve everyone better in years to come... Congrats on a really cool forward thinking product... there is always the possibility that a 3rd Party App could gain some real traction and become the de-facto standard going forward. I'll be excited to follow along with the updates you make!

 

[Adam Ellsworth]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Adam:
Can you connect both it and SM to the console at the same time? If not, this would be a total non-starter for me, for anything other then personal rig use.

No, the console unfortunately only supports one connection at a time. I have not spent much time looking into a software MIDI splitter (MIDIOX, etc) but I'm skeptical it would work smoothly. AirFader connects and disconnects very quickly, but SM just doesn't. But AirFader is not intended to be a replacement for Studio Manager, either.

...are you not doing yourself a disservice by becoming accustomed to some esoteric tool that may or may not even be practical to setup quickly?
(...) I also believe that in true "combat audio" situations...all of this goes out the window. Tablet control and anything other then mission critical tools go to the very bottom of the priority list.

On the one hand, this is hardly a standards-based industry outside of rack dimensions, XLRs, and a few communications protocols (ie DMX). After all, there are dozens of lighting software options alone. But I totally understand general concern about a non-vendor supplied product. We're expected to be reliable show after show, so we in turn demand that from our tools.

So, perhaps something like AirFader is not for you. I can tell you my personal experience has been the opposite, but I may be coming from a different angle: I usually mix a different band every show at any of a half-dozen venues, some with house systems I manage and the rest we bring full PA. But I'm almost always carrying the same LS9, and I'm usually the lone engineer. (Since my console and IP network does not change, the time for me to connect router and sync AirFader is negligible... this would take longer on a "new" console each night.) I'm obviously not doing 1k-seat venues most of the time.

But more than half the time anymore, I don't even get behind the console until after sound check. I can do a basic line check without the band and get monitors roughed-in, with one hand free. I can stand next to the lead singer until his mix is perfect. These are HUGE time savers. Of course I am certainly biased - but I did not design my processes to fit AirFader, I developed AirFader because it made my job easier. Isn't that what a tool does?

But I no means take your comments personally - they are very constructive and probably indicate differences in the gigs and ways we work as much as anything else. Different jobs require different tools.

 

[Steve Milner]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

But more than half the time anymore, I don't even get behind the console until after sound check. I can do a basic line check without the band and get monitors roughed-in, with one hand free. I can stand next to the lead singer until his mix is perfect. These are HUGE time savers. Of course I am certainly biased - but I did not design my processes to fit AirFader, I developed AirFader because it made my job easier. Isn't that what a tool does?

But I no means take your comments personally - they are very constructive and probably indicate differences in the gigs and ways we work as much as anything else. Different jobs require different tools.

Adam;

I think it is killer that you have the skills to be able to design a piece of software like this to make your life easier... too cool!!! I can absolutely see the advantages you are talking about and the time savings a powerful tool like that can offer... my intent was not to say that the product wasn't for me at all... just that there are some hurdles it would have to clear before being as well suited for my type of work.

Like I said before... I will be excited to follow the progress your App makes... a MAJOR two thumbs up to you for what you have accomplished so far.

 

[Rick Stansby]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

No, the console unfortunately only supports one connection at a time.

Have you considered having one "master" computer attached to the mixer, with "slave" computers that relay their changes through the "master"?

 

[Rob Spence]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

Have you considered having one "master" computer attached to the mixer, with "slave" computers that relay their changes through the "master"?

I think you can do this with a VNC connection.

I like what I see with Air Fader and will likely buy a copy. I use an LE1600 now with SM and SOF and there are several functions I cannot do remotely that I would love to. One that is covered in the new version of AF is the rack and all the GEQs.
My major use is to mix remotely out front with the desk set up side stage (think corporate or weddings). The tablet is a godsend to get the mix sounding good out front. With SOF I could more easily dial in the mix for monitors while standing next to the talent. What was a pain was ringing out the wedges before the band showed up. Sometimes you can't even see the talent from the mixer.

A feature I would love in AF that SM doesn't have is a way to set delays on the outputs from the tablet. That way I can stand out front while someone makes the right noises on stage and dial in the delay for best sound.

I sure would love it if Yamaha would take remote access for live sound a little more seriously. Studio Manager isn't it.

 

[Adam Ellsworth]

Re: Knob turning on iPad?

(I didn't mean to promote the hi-jacking of this thread - I am after all a vendor in this case, so I will answer questions asked but this might not be the appropriate "forum" for product discussions. Feel free to contact me directly.)

I think it is killer that you have the skills to be able to design a piece of software like this to make your life easier...

I was a full-time software engineer for several years and continue to have "information technology" as my career... on the other hand, I've been in the live sound business for the better part of a decade but am probably in "Junior Varsity" territory in the big picture. So this was just a good a mixture of two skills I already had for some time.

Have you considered having one "master" computer attached to the mixer, with "slave" computers that relay their changes through the "master"?

I have already said too much.

A feature I would love in AF that SM doesn't have is a way to set delays on the outputs from the tablet.

This is already high on the wish-list and will probably be available in an update within the next week or so.