L6-30 wire for 220V?
- Thread starter Chris Gruber
- Start date
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
That was based on his ORIGINAL question, the one I answered. Chris NEVER stated in his OP that he wanted to plug his I-Tech into this outlet.
Regardless, if there is no GROUND, it's illegal, immoral and possibly fattening (fattening a lawyer's wallet). If there is no neutral, fine and dandy... but HOW DO WE KNOW FOR SURE that it's wired this way? If Neutral and Ground are bonded at the service point, it will meter the same. It is for that reason I suggested he NOT USE THIS OUTLET.
These are not difficult concepts, but attempting to "get by" often results in dire circumstances that I want no part of suggesting, endorsing or implementing. You all can make your own decisions, but I stand by my observations and comments.
Tim Mc
That was based on his ORIGINAL question, the one I answered. Chris NEVER stated in his OP that he wanted to plug his I-Tech into this outlet.
Regardless, if there is no GROUND, it's illegal, immoral and possibly fattening (fattening a lawyer's wallet). If there is no neutral, fine and dandy... but HOW DO WE KNOW FOR SURE that it's wired this way? If Neutral and Ground are bonded at the service point, it will meter the same. It is for that reason I suggested he NOT USE THIS OUTLET.
These are not difficult concepts, but attempting to "get by" often results in dire circumstances that I want no part of suggesting, endorsing or implementing. You all can make your own decisions, but I stand by my observations and comments.
Tim Mc
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I put in bold the comment that I take exception to... as it WAS NOT what you asked in your original post... it IS what you asked over on PSW, though.
See my reply to Silas as to why I would not use this outlet.
That said, there is something going on with the venue and their 'no tap' policy. Either they've had a very bad, expensive experience with power taps or they discovered that events that need taps are LOUD and that noise has generated complaints from other users or guests. IF the venue has no SPL issues, have your client hire a suitable generator and feeder, connect your distro and away you go. You should also have a little chat with your client about how they pick the venue and determine, in advance, that its technical capabilities are sufficient for their event...
Tim Mc
ps. The book Marlow quotes from was written by Richard Cadena, one of the best authors on entertainment power. I highly recommend this book for anyone learning about electrical service for entertainment/special events.
I put in bold the comment that I take exception to... as it WAS NOT what you asked in your original post... it IS what you asked over on PSW, though.
See my reply to Silas as to why I would not use this outlet.
That said, there is something going on with the venue and their 'no tap' policy. Either they've had a very bad, expensive experience with power taps or they discovered that events that need taps are LOUD and that noise has generated complaints from other users or guests. IF the venue has no SPL issues, have your client hire a suitable generator and feeder, connect your distro and away you go. You should also have a little chat with your client about how they pick the venue and determine, in advance, that its technical capabilities are sufficient for their event...
Tim Mc
ps. The book Marlow quotes from was written by Richard Cadena, one of the best authors on entertainment power. I highly recommend this book for anyone learning about electrical service for entertainment/special events.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
Thanks guys. I already ordered the book and probably won't use that outlet unless it can be verified(by an electrician) that it is indeed a ground and not a neutral. I never realized how big of a problem finding enough power was. 2 20 amp circuits and I used to be good to roll.
Thanks guys. I already ordered the book and probably won't use that outlet unless it can be verified(by an electrician) that it is indeed a ground and not a neutral. I never realized how big of a problem finding enough power was. 2 20 amp circuits and I used to be good to roll.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I was in a similar place a little while ago, and my solution has been two-fold. Learning and understanding power can help you get the most out of what's available. This can be anything from troubleshooting, learning how to meter effectively and understanding why one must sometimes refuse to use provided power that is unsafe or unsuitable for your equipment and having confidence in your refusal (Ie loose neutrals, no ground, inappropriate OCPD, etc).
The second part has been to built an efficient rig that can be run of a few 20 amp outlets where needed for small shows. For example, I was bidding on a show at a university where my competitor, using conventional lighting and heaps of bridged XTI amps with an SRX rig, needed to pay an electrician to do his tie-in with a 100 amp three phase distro. My smaller rig was going to be perfectly fine using the range plug available, and in a pinch, wall power. Efficient amplifiers, speakers and LED lighting make it so. Of course this only works up to a point, but for the smaller local stuff it can really help. For me as a business, this is also defines the limits of what I do. I partner up with a larger local provider when the next level is needed because this is as large as I want to be. It's a nice humble boundary for unwise expansion.
Regarding using a generator - I can run just about any small show I do off my 6500 watt Honda generator, but I can assure you that 95% of the time its use would be unacceptable to both the venue and client. I operate almost exclusively in the downtown core of the 3.7 million person greater Montreal area, and setting up a generator outside just wouldn't be feasible, nor would there be any way to get feeder to the generator. As a provider, I'm all about providing solutions to problems, not coming up with additional problems. Sometimes the generator is just right, but it's far from being a one-size-fits-all solution to my power issues. YMMV depending on the location.
I was in a similar place a little while ago, and my solution has been two-fold. Learning and understanding power can help you get the most out of what's available. This can be anything from troubleshooting, learning how to meter effectively and understanding why one must sometimes refuse to use provided power that is unsafe or unsuitable for your equipment and having confidence in your refusal (Ie loose neutrals, no ground, inappropriate OCPD, etc).
The second part has been to built an efficient rig that can be run of a few 20 amp outlets where needed for small shows. For example, I was bidding on a show at a university where my competitor, using conventional lighting and heaps of bridged XTI amps with an SRX rig, needed to pay an electrician to do his tie-in with a 100 amp three phase distro. My smaller rig was going to be perfectly fine using the range plug available, and in a pinch, wall power. Efficient amplifiers, speakers and LED lighting make it so. Of course this only works up to a point, but for the smaller local stuff it can really help. For me as a business, this is also defines the limits of what I do. I partner up with a larger local provider when the next level is needed because this is as large as I want to be. It's a nice humble boundary for unwise expansion.
Regarding using a generator - I can run just about any small show I do off my 6500 watt Honda generator, but I can assure you that 95% of the time its use would be unacceptable to both the venue and client. I operate almost exclusively in the downtown core of the 3.7 million person greater Montreal area, and setting up a generator outside just wouldn't be feasible, nor would there be any way to get feeder to the generator. As a provider, I'm all about providing solutions to problems, not coming up with additional problems. Sometimes the generator is just right, but it's far from being a one-size-fits-all solution to my power issues. YMMV depending on the location.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
Tim, I'm not trying to start an argument here, but why would you think that an L6-30 would be wired with a neutral instead of a ground? If the venue was built by licensed electricians and inspected by a local governing authority, then it's wired with a ground. I mean, it's pretty obvious...green screw, it's tied to the metal mounting points, and AFAIK, code says green screws are for ground. Heck, if you were desperate, you could take the wall plate off and see what the wire connected to the ground screw looked like. Green or bare and you're good to go.
I'm not saying that someone couldn't make a mistake, but if I go into a venue with the assumption that all the power is wired wrong, even though it meters right, then I also better be prepared to bring a generator everywhere I go.
Also, neutral and ground would NOT meter the same unless you were metering close to the service entrance. As distance from the service entrance increases, the potential between neutral and ground will change, depending on how subpanels are arranged and what is drawing to neutral on the same circuit or circuits fed from the same subpanel as the receptacle in question.
Of course, metering hot to ground and hot to neutral could be pretty close, but I always meter neutral to ground to see what's going on there. In the case of this particular L6-30 (if I absolutely had to use it), I'd meter the ground slot to the box or another nearby ground reference to make sure it was at zero. Anything other than zero and there is something wrong.
Tim, I'm not trying to start an argument here, but why would you think that an L6-30 would be wired with a neutral instead of a ground? If the venue was built by licensed electricians and inspected by a local governing authority, then it's wired with a ground. I mean, it's pretty obvious...green screw, it's tied to the metal mounting points, and AFAIK, code says green screws are for ground. Heck, if you were desperate, you could take the wall plate off and see what the wire connected to the ground screw looked like. Green or bare and you're good to go.
I'm not saying that someone couldn't make a mistake, but if I go into a venue with the assumption that all the power is wired wrong, even though it meters right, then I also better be prepared to bring a generator everywhere I go.
Also, neutral and ground would NOT meter the same unless you were metering close to the service entrance. As distance from the service entrance increases, the potential between neutral and ground will change, depending on how subpanels are arranged and what is drawing to neutral on the same circuit or circuits fed from the same subpanel as the receptacle in question.
Of course, metering hot to ground and hot to neutral could be pretty close, but I always meter neutral to ground to see what's going on there. In the case of this particular L6-30 (if I absolutely had to use it), I'd meter the ground slot to the box or another nearby ground reference to make sure it was at zero. Anything other than zero and there is something wrong.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
Tim speaks from the School of Hard Knocks. Your power is your responsibility, regardless of how many badges the electrician who put it in wears. Since it is extremely difficult to diagnose a ground/neutral swap the best course of action is to demand a real tie in with separate wires that you can trace back to a panel.
Since Real Venues hire Real Electricians to do their electrical work, every piece of miswired electrical I have encountered has been installed by a Real Electrician.
Tim speaks from the School of Hard Knocks. Your power is your responsibility, regardless of how many badges the electrician who put it in wears. Since it is extremely difficult to diagnose a ground/neutral swap the best course of action is to demand a real tie in with separate wires that you can trace back to a panel.
Since Real Venues hire Real Electricians to do their electrical work, every piece of miswired electrical I have encountered has been installed by a Real Electrician.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
Bennett, as I mentioned in my response, if you're going to assume that neutral and ground are swapped on the L6-30, then why not make that assumption about every receptacle in the whole building? At some point, the assumption is going to have to be made that it is correct, or everyone needs to use batteries at every gig they do. It's just as easy to wire an Edison wrong as it is anything else....
I guess if there is any doubt, then don't use the receptacles. It could be a call based on the building itself. If the building appears to be in good repair, modern, neat, etc, then the power could be fine. If it is obvious that the receptacles are 50 years old, they're all worn out and loose, and that the owner's wife's grandpa has hacked up rewiring the building five times, then I'm probably not going to provide any gear there anyway.
And I never said that I've only seen perfect wiring. I've come across plenty of stuff that was wrong, illegal, scary, and where buildings were probably going to burn down in the next 5 minutes. That's when I don't touch anything; I get by with one wall plug (that meters correctly) for the show, and get out of there!
Bennett, as I mentioned in my response, if you're going to assume that neutral and ground are swapped on the L6-30, then why not make that assumption about every receptacle in the whole building? At some point, the assumption is going to have to be made that it is correct, or everyone needs to use batteries at every gig they do. It's just as easy to wire an Edison wrong as it is anything else....
I guess if there is any doubt, then don't use the receptacles. It could be a call based on the building itself. If the building appears to be in good repair, modern, neat, etc, then the power could be fine. If it is obvious that the receptacles are 50 years old, they're all worn out and loose, and that the owner's wife's grandpa has hacked up rewiring the building five times, then I'm probably not going to provide any gear there anyway.
And I never said that I've only seen perfect wiring. I've come across plenty of stuff that was wrong, illegal, scary, and where buildings were probably going to burn down in the next 5 minutes. That's when I don't touch anything; I get by with one wall plug (that meters correctly) for the show, and get out of there!
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Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I would be much more worried about a new building than an old building, at least in terms of blatant miswiring.
I would be much more worried about a new building than an old building, at least in terms of blatant miswiring.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I'm just curious, why?
PS - I certainly wouldn't be if my dad built it! :lol: (he's the guy that if the pipes are 1/4 inch off from being parallel, he tells the guy to redo it. And he has the NEC always within arm's reach)
I'm just curious, why?
PS - I certainly wouldn't be if my dad built it! :lol: (he's the guy that if the pipes are 1/4 inch off from being parallel, he tells the guy to redo it. And he has the NEC always within arm's reach)
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
Because in a new building I may be the first person using that outlet, it may very well have been installed or modified the night before. In older work someone else will probably have discovered any problems before I do.
Because in a new building I may be the first person using that outlet, it may very well have been installed or modified the night before. In older work someone else will probably have discovered any problems before I do.
Silas Pradetto
Graduate Student
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
That makes sense.
I feel bad for the guy that found out the old wiring was wrong!
That makes sense.
I feel bad for the guy that found out the old wiring was wrong!
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I have been the guy that found the bad wiring.
On regular Edison outlets in most constant use places (hotel ballrooms, salons, meeting rooms, convention/civic centers) are correctly wired and you can find someone who knows where the breakers are. However, I've found all sorts of interesting things, like neutral & ground wires twisted together and wrapped around the "un-hot" terminal of higher voltage services; ground/neutral swaps at 14-50 and 14-30 outlets... so I presume NOTHING.
Dealing with the aftermath of loose neutrals was enough for us to insist on real power taps, generators when practical, and having clients pay for modifications to existing services in necessary.
It ain't worth doing any other way.
Tim Mc
I have been the guy that found the bad wiring.
On regular Edison outlets in most constant use places (hotel ballrooms, salons, meeting rooms, convention/civic centers) are correctly wired and you can find someone who knows where the breakers are. However, I've found all sorts of interesting things, like neutral & ground wires twisted together and wrapped around the "un-hot" terminal of higher voltage services; ground/neutral swaps at 14-50 and 14-30 outlets... so I presume NOTHING.
Dealing with the aftermath of loose neutrals was enough for us to insist on real power taps, generators when practical, and having clients pay for modifications to existing services in necessary.
It ain't worth doing any other way.
Tim Mc
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
The reasons for not using a ground as a neutral are obvious.
However, in a situation such as this with a 2P/3W outlet supplying 208V or 240V what is the inherent problem with the outlet having a neutral instead of a ground? I'm thinking Lee Patzius demonstrated this once, but I'm having trouble recalling the exact reason.
The other thing I'm not clear on... is this an L5 or L6? An L5 should not be used for >120V.
The reasons for not using a ground as a neutral are obvious.
However, in a situation such as this with a 2P/3W outlet supplying 208V or 240V what is the inherent problem with the outlet having a neutral instead of a ground? I'm thinking Lee Patzius demonstrated this once, but I'm having trouble recalling the exact reason.
The other thing I'm not clear on... is this an L5 or L6? An L5 should not be used for >120V.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
It is an L6-30. I realized I typed L5 after I posted it and you can't change the title.
It is an L6-30. I realized I typed L5 after I posted it and you can't change the title.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
If any of the above aren't true, you are connecting your safety ground to a current-carrying conductor, which causes several bad things. The least bad situation is that there will be a voltage potential difference between the chassis of this device and other equipment that is correctly grounded. The much more bad situation is if a neutral wire fault develops somewhere in the chain, the chassis of your gear will suddenly be energized with anywhere between 0 and 208/240 volts, depending on the load distribution between legs. This kind of thing is a great way to fry ministers in baptistries.
Safety grounds can't be current carrying conductors.
Most of the 3-wire outlets that are of the hot/hot/neutral configuration were for appliances that had external grounding means - water pipes, etc. Mercifully these are a lot less common now.
IF this outlet is the only thing on the circuit, IF this circuit is served from the service origination where the neutral and ground are bonded, and IF the device is expecting a ground and not a split phase service to derive 120 volts plus 208/240, then you have a situation that isn't dangerous (though definitely wrong and illegal), - it's a semantics issue if the wire in question is a neutral or a gound since electrically they would be the same thing.
If any of the above aren't true, you are connecting your safety ground to a current-carrying conductor, which causes several bad things. The least bad situation is that there will be a voltage potential difference between the chassis of this device and other equipment that is correctly grounded. The much more bad situation is if a neutral wire fault develops somewhere in the chain, the chassis of your gear will suddenly be energized with anywhere between 0 and 208/240 volts, depending on the load distribution between legs. This kind of thing is a great way to fry ministers in baptistries.
Safety grounds can't be current carrying conductors.
Most of the 3-wire outlets that are of the hot/hot/neutral configuration were for appliances that had external grounding means - water pipes, etc. Mercifully these are a lot less common now.
Re: L5-30 wire for 220V?
I find reading about the electrical codes etc in the US fascinating the variety of connectors and wiring possibilities. I know in indutrial premises similar connections to the ones you describe here were available but they tended to be hard wired or used a device specific plug. All this is not to say we don't get some interesting wiring! apart from the normal reversed connections no earth excetera, multi phase stuffis where the real fun starts, one of the most common bad ones is connecting together the 3 hots on a 3-phase plug then connecting the other end to a single phase supply, ta ta neutral wire when someone sees a potentional 63A per phase plug and uses it as such and the poor old neutral ends up as a fuse. The other favourite here is mixing the colours on a 3-phase tie in, for years neutral on a single phase was blue and on a 3-phase blue was one of the hots, black was neutral on the 3-phase, nowadays on 3-phase blue is a neutral the hots are brown, grey and black so you can imagine the chaos if someone isn't careful and ties in on an older service with one set of colours while using the other!! ( 415V in the wrong place is NOT good trust me!!)
As has been said many time on these forums if you don't know how to don't do it and if your not sure meter it, but first learn what you need to see with the meter and where it needs to be seen. ANY doubt don't touch and find an alternative. G
PS cheap old 1kw par cans are your friend for putting test loads onto a suspect circuit.
I find reading about the electrical codes etc in the US fascinating the variety of connectors and wiring possibilities. I know in indutrial premises similar connections to the ones you describe here were available but they tended to be hard wired or used a device specific plug. All this is not to say we don't get some interesting wiring! apart from the normal reversed connections no earth excetera, multi phase stuffis where the real fun starts, one of the most common bad ones is connecting together the 3 hots on a 3-phase plug then connecting the other end to a single phase supply, ta ta neutral wire when someone sees a potentional 63A per phase plug and uses it as such and the poor old neutral ends up as a fuse. The other favourite here is mixing the colours on a 3-phase tie in, for years neutral on a single phase was blue and on a 3-phase blue was one of the hots, black was neutral on the 3-phase, nowadays on 3-phase blue is a neutral the hots are brown, grey and black so you can imagine the chaos if someone isn't careful and ties in on an older service with one set of colours while using the other!! ( 415V in the wrong place is NOT good trust me!!)
As has been said many time on these forums if you don't know how to don't do it and if your not sure meter it, but first learn what you need to see with the meter and where it needs to be seen. ANY doubt don't touch and find an alternative. G
PS cheap old 1kw par cans are your friend for putting test loads onto a suspect circuit.