List of digital consoles

[harrybrilljr]

Re: List of digital consoles

I'd also like to bring us back on topic and ask Harry why the interest in fixed vs floating point processing?

"a manufacturer" is claiming (probably correctly) that floating point is far superior for sound quality and that they are one of the few or only that use it. I think far more use it actually, but I am curious who doesn't. I'm also curious of it really matters. I'm not a component level digital audio design engineer like Andy Peters. I'm not looking for engineering data either, just a general idea if there is a correlation between sound quality, or lack of it, and floating vs fixed.

 

[Frederik Rosenkjær]

Re: List of digital consoles

"a manufacturer" is claiming (probably correctly) that floating point is far superior for sound quality

I'm also curious of it really matters.

This has been discussed ad nauseum in the recording world with respect to DAWs and the body of evidence in favor of there being an actual difference has all the hallmarks of non-existence; It is scant, elusive and unconvincing in exactly the same way as with crystals on top of the CD-players, ceramic thingies to hold the cables up off the floor etc., all of which demonstrate that an honest person on the Internet claiming a "night and day difference" with all the sincerity in the world does not amount to shite.

Floating point is as far as I know technically superior, but in practice I'm pretty sure it makes a greater difference in your final mix whether or not the drummer has shaved today, and an integer-based console that's working certainly sounds a lot better than a floating-point one that has crashed.

Having said all this (especially that last sentence ) I should probably state clearly that I have an affiliation with Yamaha. :razz:

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: List of digital consoles

Well, if you all want I'll go out and start working on a list of them. I'll post it in a thread and update as I get more of them done. Sound good?

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: List of digital consoles

"a manufacturer" is claiming (probably correctly) that floating point is far superior for sound quality and that they are one of the few or only that use it. I think far more use it actually, but I am curious who doesn't. I'm also curious of it really matters. I'm not a component level digital audio design engineer like Andy Peters. I'm not looking for engineering data either, just a general idea if there is a correlation between sound quality, or lack of it, and floating vs fixed.

In 2013 and at the bit depths that are being used it doesn't make a practical difference.

There are pros and cons to both... but the cons of both tend to fall well below the noise floor of what even high quality analog components are capable of passing.

Pure marketing BS at this point.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: List of digital consoles

Well, if you all want I'll go out and start working on a list of them. I'll post it in a thread and update as I get more of them done. Sound good?

Are you done yet?
:razz:

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: List of digital consoles

In 2013 and at the bit depths that are being used it doesn't make a practical difference.

There are pros and cons to both... but the cons of both tend to fall well below the noise floor of what even high quality analog components are capable of passing.

Pure marketing BS at this point.

Bit-depth and sample rate have nothing to do with noise floor. The benefit of higher resolution systems is that you are able to more accurately represent a wave of increasing complexity. Floating point capability allows you to give each sample a more exact value at lower values, essentially the only thing below the noise floor. However, if the noise floor is anticipated, the range of the bits can be altered to account for this and more of the extra decimals are able to be represented. Not that anyone does that, but it's possible.

 

[Mike Brown]

Re: List of digital consoles

Bit-depth and sample rate have nothing to do with noise floor. The benefit of higher resolution systems is that you are able to more accurately represent a wave of increasing complexity. Floating point capability allows you to give each sample a more exact value at lower values, essentially the only thing below the noise floor. However, if the noise floor is anticipated, the range of the bits can be altered to account for this and more of the extra decimals are able to be represented. Not that anyone does that, but it's possible.

Max, this is almost entirely incorrect.... bit-depth has EVERYTHING to do with noise floor.

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: List of digital consoles

Are you done yet?
:razz:

Shhhhhh... I'm only through VENUE and DiGiCo so far. I also can't decide where to put the thread.

Edit

Max, this is almost entirely incorrect.... bit-depth has EVERYTHING to do with noise floor.

Well, for lack of a better way to put this- thank you for informing me on that. I'll say no more on the subject.

 

[Samuel Rees]

Max, this is almost entirely incorrect.... bit-depth has EVERYTHING to do with noise floor.

+1

The increased headroom and decreased noise floor are the primary advantages of 24 bit over 16 bit audio.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: List of digital consoles

Shhhhhh... I'm only through VENUE and DiGiCo so far. I also can't decide where to put the thread.

Not to make more work for you, in fact I will even offer to help...But I'm thinking that a spread sheet format would work best. That way it can be organized by various features, or manufacturers or what have you. And Actually I have been trying to work on something similar, starting with Yamaha of course. So maybe we should combine our efforts?

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: List of digital consoles

+1

The increased headroom and decreased noise floor are the primary advantages of 24 bit over 16 bit audio.

Isn't the bit depth that we are talking about the actual processing bit depth, and not the analog to digital conversion bit depth? Or are the two one in the same?

 

[andrew gissing]

Re: List of digital consoles

Disclaimer: I may be wrong !

I thought that it was the same issue however, AD conversion is usually at a lower "depth" than the processing (eq, dynamics, effects and summing) so as to provide greater accuracy during the processing.

Also, i'm under the impression it's "length" not "depth". IIRC this was one of Andy Peter's bug bears ? I do miss his posts..

andrew

 

[Chris Johnson]

Re: List of digital consoles

Interesting.

It is clear that there are a number of misconceptions about fixed point vs. floating point processing, and what the benefits of each are.

In short, there is a big difference when it comes to DSP design and the implementation of those 2 different architectures, however, that doesn't mean there will be any appreciable difference in the audio quality of 2 products that use said processes.

Ultimately, a few things are true here:
1) I'm gonna suggest that fixed vs floating point architecture, in isolation, is quite possibly the least important factor in real world audio quality of actual digital console products.
2) Most of the companies who tell you that their architecture decision was made from an audio quality standpoint are lying. It was made due to cost/programming/interoperability considerations.
3) The processes for making 'good sounding' simple dsp-driven audio filters (EQ etc..) are widely known and pretty well optimised. Thats why so many companies can produce relatively cheap good sounding products.

My real world use of many console products has determined that preamps and converters make the single biggest difference to absolute audio quality between products. I'll regale you with a story from a recent audio adventure:

Big venue, D&B Q1 PA (40 hangs of...), Average acoustics: not the worst I've heard, far from the best. PA is driven in AES, with an analog backup. I have an LS9 doing the PA matrixing. So this is feeding AES and Analog signals to the various amp positions (AES I/O via a slot card).
FOH console sends me the mix via AES, with an analog backup. FOH console shall remain nameless, to eliminate any reader bias, biut suffice to say, its an expensive excellent sounding live console.
Now, since I had my inputs in both analog and digital, and the drive to the amps in analog and digital, i took the opportunity to do some A/B testing. We all know the LS9 sounds crap right?
Well, in short. If you keep the amp drive AES, and A/B the inputs, you hear a big difference. Analog is noticeably coloured and less 'clear' sounding.
But if you keep the input digital, and A/B the outputs.... Negligible discernable difference.
As a super test, if you A/B the PA driven straight from the FOH console in AES, vs the LS9 path in AES, no difference.

So in short. The LS9 has cheap preamps, but everything else sounds as good as the much more expensive FOH console.

Word length (bit depth, if you like) had nothing to do with it...

Moral of the story: Look at everything else first before you care about fixed vs. floating point architecture in terms of sound quality...

 

[harrybrilljr]

Re: List of digital consoles

OK so we will have a living list of current digital console products (maybe past as well) somewhere.... (thank you). I suggest in the spread sheet format listing the I/O as well ie 24x16 analog, 8x8 AES, etc. Too much detail is just enough if it's organized well and it allows direct comparison of features. Any other comments on this fixed vs floating subject?

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: List of digital consoles

Not to make more work for you, in fact I will even offer to help...But I'm thinking that a spread sheet format would work best. That way it can be organized by various features, or manufacturers or what have you. And Actually I have been trying to work on something similar, starting with Yamaha of course. So maybe we should combine our efforts?

If you are particularly comfortable with it, we could create it in Google Drive. I in fact have it in a spreadsheet format, but was going to post it to an easily view-able thread.

I also wish to apologize for essentially not understanding proper terminology when I attempted to speak on the bit-depth topic. What I was trying to say was not about the noise floor, but rather about the fact that increased bit depth as well as using floating point processing increases the amount of usable dynamic range (or headroom) throughout the signal path. In reality it makes almost zero difference past what we use today.

 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Re: List of digital consoles

Admitedly, I don't know much about Google Drive or how it works. Is it possible to post a document and have it freely available for anyone to view? Can you upload directly from an xls sheet?

I think right now, the important thing is to define the scope of the spreadsheet. What fields do we need? What data points are important to include and which ones are irrelevant?

 

[Jared Koopman]

Re: List of digital consoles

Admitedly, I don't know much about Google Drive or how it works. Is it possible to post a document and have it freely available for anyone to view? Can you upload directly from an xls sheet?

I think right now, the important thing is to define the scope of the spreadsheet. What fields do we need? What data points are important to include and which ones are irrelevant?

Yes. You can upload an xls file and either leave as is or have it converted to google doc format. Simply put it into a shared folder and make the folder public...there are a few options.

Public and searchable by anyone (ie listed in googles search anyone can view it.
Public but only if you have the link (ie the link listed on the forums here and requires you to connect via that link. The spreadsheet is not view able without it)

I believe you can set it up as an editable document. That way the community can update/add information and doesnt require one person to maintain it. I set up a test one to try it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An8VlwqAhD4CdE1CTmk0aC1GR1VKNE5aeUdBWWpTTXc&usp=sharing


Jared

 

[brian maddox]

Re: List of digital consoles

Admitedly, I don't know much about Google Drive or how it works. Is it possible to post a document and have it freely available for anyone to view? Can you upload directly from an xls sheet?

I think right now, the important thing is to define the scope of the spreadsheet. What fields do we need? What data points are important to include and which ones are irrelevant?

yes you can post a spreadsheet that is viewable and exportable by anyone who could then reorganize it however they would like. I'm on my iPad right now and don't want to try to type out all the 'how to' but it's pretty straightforward....

 

[Max Warasila]

Re: List of digital consoles

The way I have it set up on mine is incredibly extensive. I'll scale it down from my original personal version. I'll open this one up to the public and also keep a back-up just in case someone tampers. Personally, I would prefer to keep a detailed version that I maintain, just so it stays within format and such. What I have listed in there so far is a start.

Yes, I know it only has one entry- my original is in Pages.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtjvUi6iHid4dGltQW15Vk5USXp1elJwUDQzZm5lU1E&usp=sharing

And yes, you can post a document for anyone to freely view/edit.

 

[Kevin Hayes]

Re: List of digital consoles

This is a cool idea. A few suggestions, just based on things I'd like to see if I were in the market.

Separating aux from matrix buses, whether or not it comes with a stage box(to take cost effectiveness into account), what other kind of input/output options there are(trs, aes, optical), network capability, ipad compatibility, whether it's a touch screen, what year it came out, is it still in production.