M7, compression and effects questions.

[Kevin Maxwell]

M7, compression and effects questions.

I am about to use an M7 for a musical (Jesus Christ Superstar). Rehearsal with sound and band starts next week 7/25 with the only performances at the end of the week. I have taken the Yamaha training for the M7 (along with all of the other Yamaha training) but it has been a few years. I just the other day watched all of the online M7 training sessions to refresh my memory. I have also played with the off-line software quite a bit and I have configured the show in that software. We will be installing the sound system this Thursday and Friday but I won’t get the M7 in place until the morning of the first day of rehearsals. And they always expect me to hit all of the cues properly on the first rehearsal with sound. I only recall fader movements and enter all of them relatively quickly from a spreadsheet that they do for me. This allows me to trim each input during a routine we run thru on stage before each rehearsal and performance. And this method has worked very well for me for a while now, as long as their spreadsheet is accurate and the actors give me performance levels in the sound check.

I am thinking of using both dynamic processors on the input channels for compression. I was thinking of setting the first one for a mild soft knee (2.5 – 1) and then use the second compressor with a more drastic ratio but with a slower attack time to try and catch the screams. Am I looking at the proper way to do this? I am used to using DBX160 compressors set on the Auto mode with over easy engaged. And I like the sound of the DBX160 and am trying to get as close to that as possible.

I was also wondering if anyone had a vocal reverb effect and settings that they prefer in the M7 for the kind of show I am doing. I was thinking of setting up one for solos and a different one for the chorus. I am thinking of using a repeating delay for some of the weird crowd/chorus effects. And I was thinking of using a reverb to fatten up the small (3- piece) horn section a little bit. This will use up my effects.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

Kevin,

If your first compressor has the faster attack time nothing will make it through for the second one to catch. I often like a 2:1 with relatively slow attack and release to catch big overall level changes, followed by a 4:1 or so with normal attack and release to get quick changes.

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

Kevin,

If your first compressor has the faster attack time nothing will make it through for the second one to catch. I often like a 2:1 with relatively slow attack and release to catch big overall level changes, followed by a 4:1 or so with normal attack and release to get quick changes.

I am so used to the DBX160 auto mode that I really don’t know how to properly set the attack and release times. My goal is to smooth out the inconsistent vocals that are so common. But I was thinking, as an additional feature since I have a second compressor I can use was to have it catch the really loud parts and bring them under control. Exactly how I go about achieving that I guess is the question.

I was thinking of achieving that with a higher threshold for the more drastic second compression. So a ratio of 2.5 or 3 to 1, first for the smoothing and maybe a 6 to 1 to catch the screams. So maybe for what I am trying to do the attach times should be the same.

If I have the time to play with it I will try to set it up the way you said and see how it works. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

You can do this with 1 compressor. The second is just going to be a waste. Just set a single compressor with like a 6:1 ratio, 0ms attack, and like 85ms release. Set it so it catches the screams, and don't worry about the rest. Musicals are meant to be dynamic, and not squashed like rock and roll. Let the singer's dynamics come through, and use the compressor to stop the peaks that'll rip people's heads off.

The rev-x halls sound good.


Evan

 

[Tim Padrick]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

For fattening, try a touch of the Symphonic (Symphonique?) effect.

 

[Jay Barracato]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

You can do this with 1 compressor. The second is just going to be a waste. Just set a single compressor with like a 6:1 ratio, 0ms attack, and like 85ms release. Set it so it catches the screams, and don't worry about the rest. Musicals are meant to be dynamic, and not squashed like rock and roll. Let the singer's dynamics come through, and use the compressor to stop the peaks that'll rip people's heads off.

The rev-x halls sound good.


Evan

The rev-x hall is the one I end up using the most. I tend to highlight the mid section (roll off highs and lows) of the rev-x hall, and shorten the tails in general.

I think I would set all of the second compressors for my typical light vocal compression, and then preset the first compressor with a higher ratio, and leave it with the threshhold higher and ready to bring down, if someone gets out of hand excited or if they have a significant difference between speaking and singing levels.

I have never really looked but does anyone know if the M7 compressors are always in the same order or if they are reversible? I don't think I have ever actually set both at the same time.

 

[Bennett Prescott]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

Kevin,

dbx's auto mode on the 160 sets the attack and release according to the program dynamics, which is a big part of what makes that comp so damn good. Give me a 160 followed by a Distressor any day...

While I agree with Evan that theatre is supposed to be dynamic, and would personally probably only use a mid-ratio comp to catch screams, sometimes you're working with "questionable talent" who really do need to be comped to stay under control. I certainly don't agree with Evan about using a 0ms attack time, your vocalist is not a snare and you are not trying to produce an effect.

I would try something like 120ms attack, 300ms release, 2:1 for your first comp, maybe a slight knee, set it so you're just tickling 1dB GR during normal passages and getting 3-4dB when they get on it. Second comp more like 30ms attack, 90ms release, 4:1, threshold set at least 6dB above the first comp. See what happens, setting attack and release is not something that can be done over the Internet.

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

Kevin,

dbx's auto mode on the 160 sets the attack and release according to the program dynamics, which is a big part of what makes that comp so damn good. Give me a 160 followed by a Distressor any day...

While I agree with Evan that theatre is supposed to be dynamic, and would personally probably only use a mid-ratio comp to catch screams, sometimes you're working with "questionable talent" who really do need to be comped to stay under control. I certainly don't agree with Evan about using a 0ms attack time, your vocalist is not a snare and you are not trying to produce an effect.

I would try something like 120ms attack, 300ms release, 2:1 for your first comp, maybe a slight knee, set it so you're just tickling 1dB GR during normal passages and getting 3-4dB when they get on it. Second comp more like 30ms attack, 90ms release, 4:1, threshold set at least 6dB above the first comp. See what happens, setting attack and release is not something that can be done over the Internet.

I will give that a try.

I am such a DBX160 fan that I usually insert some even when using a digital console.

Has anyone accomplished a true DBX160 type of behavior in a digital console?

I never squash a vocal too much, even for rock and roll and Superstar is a rock musical. We did Rent last summer and the director says he wants Superstar to sound like that.

 

[Frederik Rosenkjær]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

I will give that a try.I am such a DBX160 fan that I usually insert some even when using a digital console.Has anyone accomplished a true DBX160 type of behavior in a digital console?I never squash a vocal too much, even for rock and roll and Superstar is a rock musical. We did Rent last summer and the director says he wants Superstar to sound like that.

Well, Yamaha is offering a DBX160-clone in one of their VCM Add-on packages....

Anyway, I do a lot of musical work on Yamaha digiconsoles, and I always (also outside of musical theater) use an FX-engine with the Multi Band Comp program on vocals. For musical theater I'll often have two of those going - one for lead vocals and one for ensemble vocals.

Also, something I like to do is to use Dynamics2 for comp on each vocal track and then use Dynamics1 for expander, which I'll have enabled for recall (= Not Recall Safe) and insert on ensemble vocals. This obviously takes a lot of time to program, but it can really help clean up passages with many mics open on a dancing ensemble with breath noises, stage noise etc....

 

[Kevin Maxwell]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

Well, Yamaha is offering a DBX160-clone in one of their VCM Add-on packages....

Anyway, I do a lot of musical work on Yamaha digiconsoles, and I always (also outside of musical theater) use an FX-engine with the Multi Band Comp program on vocals. For musical theater I'll often have two of those going - one for lead vocals and one for ensemble vocals.

Also, something I like to do is to use Dynamics2 for comp on each vocal track and then use Dynamics1 for expander, which I'll have enabled for recall (= Not Recall Safe) and insert on ensemble vocals. This obviously takes a lot of time to program, but it can really help clean up passages with many mics open on a dancing ensemble with breath noises, stage noise etc....

As best I can tell it looks like the VCM add on effects package that includes what they are calling the 260 is included with version 3 of the M7 software.

 

[Kip Conner]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

I have been there before... I once did a national tour where I was given 24 hours with a "pile of PA" and had to have it functioning, the wireless functioning, the sound effects in place and learn the script. I didn't get a copy of the script until I arrived and it was in tiny print. Bottom line is I would worry about the compression later after you are comfortable with the show. I made the mistake of putting my mixing skills in front of my reading skills and found I was trying to read along with my hands on the faders. It resulted in me firing off the wrong sound effect which was comical to the crew and some of the actors, but not the producer. I made several mistakes...

 

[Evan Kirkendall]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

While I agree with Evan that theatre is supposed to be dynamic, and would personally probably only use a mid-ratio comp to catch screams, sometimes you're working with "questionable talent" who really do need to be comped to stay under control. I certainly don't agree with Evan about using a 0ms attack time, your vocalist is not a snare and you are not trying to produce an effect.

I would try something like 120ms attack, 300ms release, 2:1 for your first comp, maybe a slight knee, set it so you're just tickling 1dB GR during normal passages and getting 3-4dB when they get on it. Second comp more like 30ms attack, 90ms release, 4:1, threshold set at least 6dB above the first comp. See what happens, setting attack and release is not something that can be done over the Internet.

I've been doing my old high school's musicals for the past 6 years now, and an attack of 30ms was still enough for me to go "oh shit" when someone screamed. I've dealt with a lot of inexperienced actors/singers, and my usual is a 4:1 comp, 0ms attack, 88ms release, knee of 2-3 and I set the ratio just over their average program level. The comp doesn't do anything when they're talking normally, but it'll kick right in and knock the peaks down when they yell. For those singers all over the place, I'll lower the threshold down, and use a lower ratio(like 2:1). The compressor will average 1-2dB of comp when they're in their normal range, and then like 6-10dB of comp when they yell.

I'm all about consistency, and anything more than a few ms doesn't do it for me.


Evan

 

[Phil Graham]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

I've been doing my old high school's musicals for the past 6 years now, and an attack of 30ms was still enough for me to go "oh shit" when someone screamed. I've dealt with a lot of inexperienced actors/singers, and my usual is a 4:1 comp, 0ms attack, 88ms release, knee of 2-3 and I set the ratio just over their average program level. The comp doesn't do anything when they're talking normally, but it'll kick right in and knock the peaks down when they yell. For those singers all over the place, I'll lower the threshold down, and use a lower ratio(like 2:1). The compressor will average 1-2dB of comp when they're in their normal range, and then like 6-10dB of comp when they yell.

I'm all about consistency, and anything more than a few ms doesn't do it for me.


Evan

I'm with Evan here, 30ms attack is an eternity for the vocal compressor, and the compressors in the Yamaha consoles do not react as quickly at 0ms as an analog compressor set for the same nominal short attack. I'd try a knee 1-2 and an attack of 0-3ms. I can't remember the last time I used an attack time longer than 10ms on a Yamaha console for peak catching.

FWIW, from the DBX160A manual:
Attack time:
Program-Dependent; Typically 15ms for 10dB, 5ms for 20dB, 3ms for 30dB Gain reduction

Release time:
Program-Dependent; Typically 8ms for 1dB, 80ms for 10dB, 400ms for 50dB; 125dB/Sec Rate

I like the DBX160A greatly, but it is on the "slow" side attack-wise for some circumstances. It makes a nice bass guitar and kick compressor, but is too slow for a "modern" snare sound. It can be great on snare in jazz.

 

[John O'Brien]

Re: M7, compression and effects questions.

The rev-x halls sound good.

Evan

Well dang it. Here I was hoping that I could say this and be the first, so it makes it look like I'm the smart one and not copying someone else's ideas. But I just have to put a +1 up for the Rev-x stuff. They're lush if that's an ok way of saying it.

Are you planning on using separate scenes for each... scene of the musical? (I've never mixed a large scale theater show like this, so I don't know what's best.) The M7 doesn't have the most indepth scene recall mode I've ever seen, but it does have a lot of scenes that's for sure. And you can set fade times for each scene. So, if your star vox is on recall safe, then you can have a track fading out in the back ground, already set to your liking. Saves from having to work your fingers too much! haha. Hope this helps.