Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan Kirkendall

Evan Kirkendall

Senior
Jan 10, 2011
903
4
18
Abingdon, MD
www.harfordsound.com
Full time touring guy, full time PA guy. My god things are busy, and I couldn't be happier.

My little PA company is finally starting to lock in some larger gigs these days. 2013 is promising to be the best year yet, and I'm looking at the next logical step for me. I've got a decent sized trap rig, plenty of amp power and some small digital consoles. I'm outgrowing this rig quickly, as I keep bidding on(and winning) larger and larger gigs. The problem(Which I guess isn't really a problem), is that I end up renting in so much gear, that I don't make as much $$ as I'd like on these gigs. So, I'm looking at the next "logical" step in my business.

I'm getting into a lot of larger hotel events, where the output to weight ratio is very important. But, I'm also getting into larger outdoor festivals where output in general is important.

I've got access to consoles right down the street. M7CL's, Profiles, 5D's, everything that the typical rider calls for. I've also got access to various line arrays around the area(JBL & EAW being most popular). However, I find it a lot cheaper to rent consoles in, then rent in full racks and stacks. To me, the "logical" thing to do is sell everything and get out while I'm still ahead. :lol: But, since nobody is logical in this business, I need to figure out what will be more profitable for me.

In my head, racks and stacks seems to be the way to go. I've already got amp power for days, I just need the boxes, and a bigger PD. I'm looking at boxes that are able to do the smaller gigs well, but scale up as well. I've mixed on everything under the sun, and I know what I like, but I'm still a little unsure of what will make me the most ROI. The first option that jumps out at me is JBL VT4888. I know they do fine in small numbers, and scale up very well too. VT4887 is also an option, but I don't know if they'd quite be enough for the larger gigs. Then the question comes in: what will make me better than every other vertec house in my area? On the plus side though, I can easily cross rent the boxes, or rent in more boxes for myself on larger gigs, but on the down side, I'm just another guy with vertec.

Option 2 for me is EV XLC. Again, I know they do fine in smaller numbers, and they scale up well too. The closest rental house is well out of town, so I'd be the only player with them, but they're not too far that I couldn't get more. Option 3 is v-dosc. I'd be the only one in town with them, which I feel would give me a pretty nice advantage, but I'd be the only one in town with them, so if I needed more I'd be up shits creek. They're also big, heavy boxes and wouldn't work on the smaller gigs.

So, what's a guy to do? Are there any other options you guys can think of? I know what the boxes cost, and I know what it takes to make a complete package work. Don't suggest any of those TVI or cheap off brand line arrays as options. I'm looking for a real rig that will make me stand out from the competition in the area. Think scalable, powerful and rider friendly. My plan is to get 12-16 boxes to start, and go from there.




Thanks!
Evan
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

I'd go with the 88's. You're already winning bids and you don't own a PA, so what does it matter if you're just another JBL house?

Beside 88's sound pretty dang good now with version 5 presets. They can get up and go for the rock shows, but they don't weigh a ton and they don't take up a lot of room. The only downside is the crappy rigging....
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Tim Weaver said:
I'd go with the 88's. You're already winning bids and you don't own a PA, so what does it matter if you're just another JBL house?

Beside 88's sound pretty dang good now with version 5 presets. They can get up and go for the rock shows, but they don't weigh a ton and they don't take up a lot of room. The only downside is the crappy rigging....
Click to expand...


Ok, I gotta ask. My area sucks and is drastically over saturated. Where are all these gigs coming from?
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan Kirkendall said:
Don't suggest any of those TVI or cheap off brand line arrays as options. I'm looking for a real rig that will make me stand out from the competition in the area. Think scalable, powerful and rider friendly. My plan is to get 12-16 boxes to start, and go from there.




Thanks!
Evan
Click to expand...

Meyer Milo, L'Acoustics Kudo, JBL VTX....don't settle man...get the best!
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan, people are buying you, not the equipment that you have.

My $0.02c - get out of the kit business altogether, and figure how to build a service company that supplies people who can work kit (like you!) and people who can figure out what needs to be ordered from the folks with warehouses full of kit.

Find some really good people who you can inspire, pay them very well, and give them a career path. And a credit controller and someone who is very good at negotiating prices and stuff.

Sure, a nice office with no more audio kit in than a musak player and in-ceiling speakers isn't as much to look at as a warehouse full of boxes...
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Firstly, congratulations, Evan.

All things considered I'd go with the JBL '88. Yes, you will be just another Vertec house but they will Do their job you can cross-rent in both directions easily.

What makes you different? You can make it sound great, you can make the gig flow.
Honestly, the Vertec stuff would not be my first choice but it's a good tool.

When you take the next stacks and racks step you can have the brown boxes in bigger numbers. Just see how it evolves.

EDIT: On the business side I would buy stuff (any stuff) when I pay more on rentals (and added logistics, like trucking back and forth) than on buying (and added logistics, like warehouse space, labor, repairs, repaints) over a specified time. This time depends on the type of gear, for PA I would like to see break even in a few years, video equipment should break even much earlier.

Like others posted, you will lose flexibility by buying, as you have to rent out your stuff. And you have to rent out your stuff when you're on tour.
 
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Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan, I'm plus one on David's advice... As a gear owner, I would suggest you rent your ass off, you will make more money in the long run, cause investing in gear is not like your buying gold, it's like buying day old doughnuts. Make the gig happen, it's got nothing to do with what cabs are in the air, and if they are yours or not. Again it's going to come down to if you can live without the stupid " pride of ownership". There's a shinny new toy in someone's lab waiting to outshine today's new toy, so let somebody else own the toy chest and you " play" with the latest one. I was once considering getting out and selling into another local company... I got the best and the worst compliment by the owner... He said your gear is worth nothing to me! You are what is valuable, and what I think he meant included my clients, and skill, whatever... I think that's is what is happening here too....
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Tim, David and Shane all make some good points. Obviously you enjoy the actual work the way a chef enjoys cooking so at this point in your life you need more rig for your gigs. The real money would be in some sort of franchise system with you in a management position over multiple rigs in various locations kinda like a booking agent to a band. If you can make enough friends along the way that could be a goal to work toward in 5 - 10 years. with you at the helm of some fancy rig that makes you happy when you want to play with it and several other qualified systems making you money because your ever expanding client base wants what your bring to the table.

Getting a bigger better pile of speakers is always complicated by the realities of transportation and storage.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan, remember back when you were 16 or 17 and blowing up mids?

I gave you a homework assignment that you never turned in (and we're holding your transcript, still). That was to write a business plan and the assignment is still due.

You will need to buy dirt cheap or work your gear a lot more than you think in order to make a profit that is commensurate with the efforts and expenses of being a much bigger PA shop. While you see extra money going out right now, where do you think it will go if you own the gear? The same places, but with slightly different names...

I urge you to work up a pro-forma cash flow; get new prices on insurance and any new permits or licenses you'll need. Don't forget that you will now have employees and all the associated human resources costs that go with them. You will have costs of complying with DOT regulations regarding your vehicles and drivers. And you will need a manager to run things (trust me) when you're out on tour. You will need to train your employees in "The Harford Ways".

From an operations stand point, how will you deal with shop and gig expenses, payroll, etc while on the road? What about truck rentals? Shop rat to deal with maintenance and repairs?

As Shane points out, what your clients are hiring you for is the *result* that you personally deliver. You can probably deliver acceptable results with almost any suitable gear, but can your employees? Your workers will need to deliver intangible "customer schmoozing", too, and do so in a way that is consistent with the ownership & management style YOUR clients have come to expect. That's a very fine line; I've been in the same shop for 20 years and I still can't channel my boss 100%...

So, sonny boy, where's that business plan? :cool:
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Ah-young grasshopper-you have started to grow up.

You can take the following advise for what you will-but please do consider it.

First you have think about what you REALLY want/need to do. NOT what your heart tells you (like I made the mistake of doing when I was your age).

You have being living the "glamor" side of the business. But you might want to consider is the whole "business" side of the business.

How do you want to see yourself in the future-Having a huge pile of the latest cool gear that makes lots of noise etc-and driving a 20yr old van that none of tires match?

Or do you want to make a good living-with money in the bank-loyal employees who will stick with you because they are also making a good living-or employees who sleep in the shop and just want to part of the "party" and hoping to "get lucky" every now and then.

I know these are harsh statements and they don't apply to everybody-but they do apply to a huge majority of the "PA guys" that I know and have run into over my several decades in this crazy business.

What I am about to describe is BORING-and takes the wind out of many people ideas-but could be a path towards a successful career-with some retirement and a comfortable life. It is "not cool"- but you have to get over that (it was a REALLY REALLY HARD thing for me to do and almost broke up my marriage).

So here is my "suggested plan" based on my limited assumption of your business. I don't know the market in your area (and you may not realize the real "market" (for making money-not necessarily having fun- either).

You personally have a decent mid size club rig. Keep it. It is paid for. Use it for the gigs it is good for-maybe renting in a different console etc as needed. Don't try to build into a concert rig. You know the limitations.

It sounds like you have contacts for larger rigs. I assume you can get a good rate if you were to call them up and "I need a full rig capable of XYZ-I will deal with customer and provide myself and some hands-so no operators are needed-How much will that cost-delivered?" I did that number of times and made decent money on it. And if the larger company you rented from realizes you have a smaller rig-they might could swing some business your way.

HOWEVER be very careful. I used to provide rigs for "smaller" events for a large local company. UNTIL they actually showed up at a gig they hired me to do-and realized what I was actually bring out-THEN they got worried that I could actually be competition for them-and they stopped sending me work. I had gotten "to big" and made them uncomfortable.

There is no reason to put a pile of money into a "cool rig" that makes you happy-that only goes out a couple of times a year.

Keep up your touring work ( I have no idea what you make doing that-but hope it is decent-or else you should reconsider). This will do a couple of things. Income-admiration from potential customers etc. Don't "bank" your future on the single band. You never know what can happen. One little "incident or accident" and it all comes crashing to a very quick end. Then what?

HOWEVER it does present a problem. YOU ARE NOT AT HOME to run the real business. So you need somebody "back in the shop" to run things while you are gone.

NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT-they need to have the same goals as you do-since they are acting as an extension of you. I don't want to get into this much-but they need to be reliable-trustworthy etc Generally in order to get a person like that-they need to be paid a decent wage-so they aren't looking elsewhere for "extra income" and not giving your business 100%.

So now finally to what I suggest in terms of "what to buy". Forget all the other suggestions that I have read. No offense to anybody-but that is the "glamor side" of the business.

Buy boring stuff. Speakers on a stick (12 or 15") that are powered and it would be REALLY handy if you had some that a single mic input (and a aux input for playback would be nice). Tripods for said speakers. You can rent these out quite a bit and they will pay for themselves quickly-IF you don't go for the "cool/hip" types that cost a lot of money.

Go for cheap-RELIABLE (THAT is VERY IMPORTANT!) cabinets. You just want something to produce a decent sound loud enough for a couple hundred people listening to a talking head.

Maybe get a set or 2 of some better SOS with some small subs for the small band rentals-but don't go overboard on this. REMEMBER WHERE THE MONEY IS. It ain't in bands.

Get a good number of wireless mics. Don't go for the expensive type-just decent ones. You want decent RF performance-sot so much great "audio" quality (like using an expensive mic element). You don't want them cutting out on the customer. They will get mad real quick-because they don't understand the issues.

Get into video rentals. Projectors-pop up screens etc. Again-not the bog cool stuff-but stuff that will do a decent job-and get you a return on investment.

Maybe get some lighting (think LED for low power and different colors) but don't go crazy. Start with some washes/floods to light up walls-flood the stage etc. These will go out much more than "cool" movers that require knowledge to operate.

Get some staging. Have several small stages that can be added together as needed. 16x12ea for example. Don't forget the steps and SKIRTS. They guys who will pay good money (think return on investment) for a stage-some washes and a pair of SOS need it to look nice.

And while talking about stage-also get some pipe and drape. It really gives a nice look to the stage. Remember what you are trying to sell-the look.

A podium with gooseneck would be a good idea.

Some small ANALOG mixers for the small events. Again-don't get hung up on great audio quailty (like having to have Midas preamps). The jobs that will pay for themselves wont realize the difference and it will take a lot longer to get the gear paid for.

Most people are always need more subs-so have some decent subs that bands can rent. Maybe use amps with built in DSP that you can lock out-so they can't screw with the setting. Don't go for the "cool" labs or powersofts-get something much cheaper that does the job and will pay for itself quickly.

Of course having a good selection of average mics (think SM58's) and stands is always a good idea. Some snakes (maybe 16x4) are always needed by bands.

You can make a good bit off of "piece rental".

I could go on and on-but I think you get the idea.

Now what I have suggested is not for everybody. And when you are young (yes I was at one time also-believe it or not) it seems more about the "fun" side of it. But as get older you will realize that you need to start to think about return on investment-if you are going to be able to make a good living in this industry.

This industry is full of "providers' who struggle from one gig to the next-yet they have a bunch of "gawkers" who wish they had the gear that so and so has. They don't realize how hard many (not all) of these people struggle to pay their power bill and have nothing set aside for retirement. "Cool" stops being cool pretty quick-and "cool" doesn't pay the bills.

Now there are exceptions to the rule-but I am talking about the majority of the "average PA guy". We got into this crazy business because of the love/passion for it.

But learning how to actually make a decent living at it is a lot harder.

Good luck-whatever path you decide to take-and may you have a great 2013 and many years beyond.

I never thought I would ever get out of the PA rental-but am glad I did. Don't get me wrong-I still enjoy a gig every now and then (you never get it out of your blood)-but not every weekend and holiday.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

David Buckley said:
Evan, people are buying you, not the equipment that you have.

My $0.02c - get out of the kit business altogether
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+1 ... Just about 12 months ago, I made the decision to stop being a guy with a truck full of gear. I was booking gigs successfully, had a 14' box truck full of gear that could handle most any daily situation and rented in for bigger events. I was at the point where I could do one of three things, continue on un-changed and see what happened, try to make another round of capital investments work by "moving up" in terms of what gear I owned, or chuck it all away and concentrate on what I do best. I felt completely trapped by the day to day workings of owning and maintaining the physical gear (I couldn't take walk-on or fly-in dates easily, as I was leaving the system unused if it was on short notice... and when I got busy with bigger shows, running around to constantly pickup and return rental gear was killing me time wise).

It took a LOT of hard consideration to realize two things; I wanted to spend more time thinking about audio and less time thinking about logistics in the future, and two, booking gigs and successfully delivering top quality results is profitable, spending my personal time driving trucks and dealing with logistics is not the most profitable use of my skills. So, I got rid of almost everything, kept a few key pieces of gear and haven't looked back since.

I could have gone the other way, found an investor, found a warehouse, found a staff that I can trust etc etc. But I've started/built a business before from the ground up before selling it on, and I personally just didn't want to invest that much of myself into a project like that at this point in my life. The idea I took forward is simply to hire everything in now a days. It actually works out in my favor, because it takes less time and money to have another company show up with exactly what I need, when I need it. I'm no longer trying to supplement my rig with their bigger gear, I'm no longer worrying about driving a truck, finding helpers, maintaining/insuring my gear etc.

I get to concentrate on doing what I do and enjoy most, while guys who are really good at the logistics get to have their crews handle that. When I load into a show, I can spend more attention on the bigger picture too, more time interfacing with clients and potential clients, and less time screwing around and getting stressed out about things like trying to park my box-truck in the city 10 mins before showtime. It's been a really great way forward for me, I'm happier, and business is starting to grow in new directions because people are calling me now for my skills and not just for my gear.

I know you're local Evan, and I know you are friendly with a lot of really talented people in the area, which should leave you in a great position to leverage their investment in building (big) gear-based business, to bring both you and them loads of profitable work. Just a thought for you going forward.

Steve (gear ain't all it's cracked up to be) Milner.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

I tend to agree with Steve and the others who remind us that it's the good and capable person who gets hired for who he is and the service he provides with whatever gear he knows will do the job.

I have observed the large outfits around here for quite a few years. Some have gone from being sound companies who primarily did events to companies who provide gear for others who are doing the events. So now instead of having their gear working for them, they're working for their gear......and the beneficiary is the bank.

If you have access to the gear you need without owning/maintaining/warehousing it, you're golden.

And make sure you hand in your homework to Prof. McCulloch.

Good luck.
 
Dick Rees said:
It's the good and capable person who gets hired for who he is and the service he provides with whatever gear he knows will do the job.
Click to expand...

Your post reminds me of another strategic advantage I've enjoyed recently... Which is not being tied down to just the gear that I personally choose to own. I've had a client insist that a d&b system is what was needed to do his jobs... Obviously, I could have made the gigs work with any number of other boxes (including ones that I could actually afford to own), but I no longer have to make that argument... Just call my buddy with a warehouse full of d&b and get a quote.

Similarly, I will NEVER own lights again... Simply isn't something I dig fooling with. But I can still make money by putting a great LD on a show with his companies gear/crew etc. It doesn't always have to be top/varsity level shows either, this same thought process can work even on modest shows if you know the right people to call in your area.

I personally choose to call a guy like Kirby Yarborough (fellow forum member) when I need SOS gear, he has a great stock of QSC k-series that is clean, reliable, properly cased for travel and can delivered by a friendly professional (himself) for a reasonable fee. He's already made the choice to invest in the gear, my choice to make is:

Will my revenue be increased more by (A) duplicating his investment (buying the same gear myself, and owning it everyday, even when it's not needed), or by (B) leveraging his investment (using his gear to make both of us money, when the need arises).
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Tim/Ivan-
I told myself in 2009 that I was getting out of the provider business, and was just going to focus on the touring side of things... That lasted about 8 months before I started getting calls again. I bought a small little SOS powered rig and made some cash that way. Got more calls, bought more gear, and the cycle has just continued... I tried to get out of it, and I just got sucked in deeper. :lol:

I do have a LOT of dry rentals. My SRM450's make me more consistent money than anything else I own. But, they're getting worn out and will need to be replaced soon. But, that's a small expense that will be covered very quickly. The rigs I send out most currently are basic bar band systems. 1-2 18's a side, and a self powered main over it. Works 2-3 times a week and makes good money. The "big" rig comes out about once a month, but it's paid for itself after 1 gig. The "bigger" gigs are starting to pop up about 6-7 times a year, and I'm trying to improve on that still.

I've got 1 basically full time guy, and 2 other freelance dudes that work for me. They are all close friends, and I trust them to take care of things while I'm gone on tour. Running a business from the road isn't as bad as it seems. I do it currently. The bigger gigs take more time, but I manage. The only annoying part is when I'm in the UK getting calls at 4am, lol.

Tim, That business plan has been a work in progress since 2005. Every time I think I've got it figured out, a new curveball is thrown my way, and I end up needing to rethink things(hence why I'm here currently). The cash in-flow is more or less to a point where I could outright buy 8-12 boxes of used PA within 6-8 months. Everyone brings up good points though... Is it worth it to own a big PA? I still can't make that decision. I've got a great relationship with a larger PA company, and a larger lighting company all within hours of me, which works out well, but the largest rig they have is a 12 box small format line array. I could become the guy that has the big boy rig and sub it out to them when needed. Oh the decisions...

So, where do I go next?



Evan
 
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Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

The hard part about getting into that "next level" is you have to devote your time 100% to the business. When I was just doing bar gigs in college, I could go to class until 4:00 on Friday, go home, eat dinner, load up and head to the gig and come home with cash in my pocket.

My days now usually start with an 8:30AM phone call from a client, followed by 2 hours on my laptop handling invoices, cross rentals, etc. At that point I head to my shop for another 6 hours and assemble racks, fix cables, build carts and cases. Then I head home and solder cables in front of the TV for another hour or two. It seems like the larger the scale of business gets, the amount of shop work increases exponentially. You also spend a lot of time tracking down esoteric equipment, you can't just walk into guitar center and grab a 75' L21-30 power cable on the way to a show.

If I were in your position, I would keep the bar gigs your local guys can handle and just take in that cash. Get really good at negotiating contracts and finding out who the next up and coming clients are before your competition can sweet talk them. You can do all this from your tour bus and laptop. It's a lot less stressful than trying to assemble a 4888 amp rack the night before a gig because your flight home from the all time low tour got postponed.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan Kirkendall said:
Yup. That's totally the right thing to do. Maybe I should be looking at a nice "large format" line array like Peavey VR212 or TVI?? :roll:



Evan
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the "real money" is in large format duel 12 duel 15 boxes (maby quad10)
all the real boxs r over 100 pounds each
more overhead ,truckin ,labor,points
more things to bill a client for
more ways to make money

cant do the duels 12 or the 15z then next step down is duel 10z
not many to chose from
v,q,flex r porblay ur best boxes under 100pounds

most small format (line and trap) arrays dont scale as well
skip the jlf210,JM-1P,arcs,vrx if u what it to go to 11

get a v system 4 over 4 could problay fit that in a 2 trailer 2 bus winter club run
add more boxes and infras for summer outdoor run
call 8thday for a used q rig

u have been giving clair and the lighting department "enough"

md systems was made ridein the coat tails of garth brooks so to say
greatfull dead ultrasound
ratsound black flag

http://www.otaritec.co.jp/news/db/tac/v1.jpg
http://www.ziogiorgio.com/images/2009/db_NUOVO_FOLDER/Musikhuset.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceOgLKIXsJY
 
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Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

Evan Kirkendall said:
Yup. That's totally the right thing to do. Maybe I should be looking at a nice "large format" line array like Peavey VR212 or TVI?? :roll:



Evan
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LOL, good comeback....I'm sure whatever is making the most money is the best option for you since this sounds like more of an investment. KF850 might be the best ROI.
 
Re: Making the next step in the PA biz... Let's hear your thoughts

I don't play at this level in the audio world. But I do in a very similar business. My other business is construction equipment rental. All of the business plans presented here sound exactly like the cost/benefit analysis we try to get contractors to use when deciding whether to buy or rent. If you look at the European hire (rental) market, practically every tool on the jobsite is rented. Even the biggest contractors own practically nothing.

Our gear reaches the $levels in pro audio very quickly. And the maintenance is enormous. At 6-7 gigs a year it's not justifiable, I guarantee it Monthly starts to get closer.

Same thing as a contractor needing a 75k telehandler 6-7 times a year. We are experts with the equipment. They are the experts (well, sometimes) on using it. Let the gear guys do their job, you do yours.
 
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