Maximum capacity of soundset in party tents

[Roel Elzinga]

Hello sound enthusiasts!

As a 4-man live cover band (keyboards, electric guitar, amplified acoustic drums and vocals), we recently purchased a new sound set. This concerns 4x sub QSC KS212c, 2x QSC KW122 and an A&H SQ5.

In the months of may to september, village festivals take place every week in party tents here in the north of the Netherlands. These can be party tents made of fabric or aluminum with dimensions of, for example, 30 by 10 meters. The sound volume must be such that people can dance and party to it.

When booking our band, the question is often asked: is our sound set sufficient for this party or should we rent additional equipment?

The music store indicated that this set is more than sufficient in a party tent for 300 to 350 people. A sound rental company indicated 'up to a maximum of 200 to 250 people'. If I submit the question to QSC, I will probably get a different number...

Who has experience with this same set and can tell me from experience what this QSC set can reasonably handle?

Thank you in advance for your response!

Yours sincerely,

Roel

 

[Jeff Babcock]

Hi,
There is no exact answer to your question. As with many audio questions like this, the answer is: It Depends.

It depends in this case on how loud you intend to be, the style of music you play, and the type of overall mix you are going for (balanced, bass heavy, etc).

I personally would want a bigger system for a large tent. You mentioned 30x10m which is about 100x30 ft. When I have done shows in tents that large I am typically bringing 4 double 18' subwoofers and running 2 3-way tops per side (such as KF650) or some compact line array cabs.

However, your system will get pretty loud, so if you don't need it to sound like a rock concert, then your system is probably fine as is. I would suggest the best option is to work with what you have for a bunch of shows. This will give you a better understanding of your system's limitations to then decide if any changes are needed.

Best wishes.

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Thanks Jeff Babcock for your quick response.

I am aware that there is no single answer to my question. But based on the information I mentioned, I hope to at least gain some more certainty about the surface area of a party tent/the number of party goers that we can reasonably play with our set.

As indicated, it is a cover band. We play a repertoire of party music and guitar music, but 'purely nature' without the enormous pounding low end that you hear a lot in music nowadays.
Loudness, as mentioned earlier, is such that both the people at the front of the stage and further down in the party tent get into the party atmosphere and sing along and dance,

Our soundset is more than sufficient for our gigs in the catering industry and village halls. However, the party tents usually have (much) more visitors. And we would like an indication of what we can reasonably assume. We feel that the subs will be sufficient for our purposes in party tents, but we doubt whether the KW122 is sufficient. This may be too little compared to the subs.

Any further additions or tips are very welcome. Thank you again Jeff Babcock!

Greetings,

Roelof

 

[Andy King]

A tent that size will probably hold 450-500 people. I think you will need to double your PA size for that area and also get the tops quite high to reach the back. Jeff's suggestion of 4x double 18s and 2 large mid/tops a side sounds more reasonable to me. Especcially if the crowd get noisy.

 

[Art Welter]

Loudness, as mentioned earlier, is such that both the people at the front of the stage and further down in the party tent get into the party atmosphere and sing along and dance,

Roelof,

If your QSC KW122 are raised above head level, they are capable of over 90dB SPL at 30 meters.
Your four dual 12 subs can get louder than that.
That's loud enough for a party atmosphere, and is around the permissible NIOSH SPL limit of 90 dB for 151 minutes.
Halfway back in the tent, SPL will be around 6dB louder, at 96dBA (slow) the NIOSH SPL limit drops to 38 minutes.
Near the speakers, SPL could be over 110dB, the NIOSH SPL limit drops to just one minute.
The World Health Organization noise guidelines for the European Region are similar.

Art

 

[Roel Elzinga]

A tent that size will probably hold 450-500 people. I think you will need to double your PA size for that area and also get the tops quite high to reach the back. Jeff's suggestion of 4x double 18s and 2 large mid/tops a side sounds more reasonable to me. Especcially if the crowd get noisy.

Thanks Andy King for your response.

I assume that 300 to 350 people will be approximately the maximum number of people at our gigs. I expect that the maximum size of the tents in which we will perform with our own soundset will be the aforementioned 30 meters by 10 meters.

So I am actually looking for some kind of confirmation, based on experience or the estimation of people with sound knowledge, that our sound set is reasonably sufficient for this.

If someone wants to book us for such a party with such numbers of people, I would like to be able to say with (reasonable) certainty whether we will come with this sound set, or whether additional rental will have to be made, which will increase costs for the organizer.

Thanks again Andy!

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Roelof,

If your QSC KW122 are raised above head level, they are capable of over 90dB SPL at 30 meters.
Your four dual 12 subs can get louder than that.
That's loud enough for a party atmosphere, and is around the permissible NIOSH SPL limit of 90 dB for 151 minutes.
Halfway back in the tent, SPL will be around 6dB louder, at 96dBA (slow) the NIOSH SPL limit drops to 38 minutes.
Near the speakers, SPL could be over 110dB, the NIOSH SPL limit drops to just one minute.
The World Health Organization noise guidelines for the European Region are similar.

Art

Thank you Art Welter for your response!

If I summarize correctly, you estimate that our sound set is sufficient for the purpose I described earlier, sufficient sound for a party atmosphere and sing along and dance. We don't need a high volume all the way to the back of the tent, there are also people who just want to talk to each other. But a firm volume, say, three-quarters of the way through the tent is actually desirable.

I still have the feeling that the ratio between the 4 subs and the 2 tops is not yet optimal. Adding two KW122 might solve this sufficiently?

Thanks again Art.

Greetings,

Roel

 

[Paul Johnson]

I’ll go out on a limb here. I do NOT think its ok for your 300+ dancing audience because the perception of volume is not about power, its about power down the bottom, and your subs are not efficient down the bottom. For example, lets say you are doing Queen’s we will rock you, or another one bites the dust. You have the kick drum or the bass guitar doing the key feature of the songs. You have plenty of clean audio, at a high volume up top, but very little air moving at the bottom. 18” bass drivers move far more air below 50 Hz, and that is what gives the perception of bass volume. The specs for subs always hide the effect they have, and having gone through lots of systems, while cardioid subs like these are clever and do one job very well, they just dont seem to have the thud. It’s transients that they struggle with. They might be great for a low synth sound, but they just dont produce kick drum and bass guitar well. This is why people have 18” and double 18” subs. You can put a hand in front of the, and feel the kick, and this effect is far more gentle with 12” subs. Even with your very high amp power.

I have a nice flown PA at my venue, and people often ask to use it rather than bring in their own toured one for ease. If the show is a tribute, say a Queen tribute or Michael Jackson, they are better bringing in theirs but if the show is something like the Drifters, their music just doesn't have the bottom end that makes your stomach jerk, and 1400 enjoy the show and dance.

As a covers band you play everything, including the music that needs energy down the bottom, turning your system up wont suddenly create the missing power down the bottom. Its not level, its impact.

To paraphrase Metallica’s Big Mick, when asked what he did when he didn't have enough sub bass, he simply said get more!

 

[Roel Elzinga]

I’ll go out on a limb here. I do NOT think its ok for your 300+ dancing audience because the perception of volume is not about power, its about power down the bottom, and your subs are not efficient down the bottom. For example, lets say you are doing Queen’s we will rock you, or another one bites the dust. You have the kick drum or the bass guitar doing the key feature of the songs. You have plenty of clean audio, at a high volume up top, but very little air moving at the bottom. 18” bass drivers move far more air below 50 Hz, and that is what gives the perception of bass volume. The specs for subs always hide the effect they have, and having gone through lots of systems, while cardioid subs like these are clever and do one job very well, they just dont seem to have the thud. It’s transients that they struggle with. They might be great for a low synth sound, but they just dont produce kick drum and bass guitar well. This is why people have 18” and double 18” subs. You can put a hand in front of the, and feel the kick, and this effect is far more gentle with 12” subs. Even with your very high amp power.

I have a nice flown PA at my venue, and people often ask to use it rather than bring in their own toured one for ease. If the show is a tribute, say a Queen tribute or Michael Jackson, they are better bringing in theirs but if the show is something like the Drifters, their music just doesn't have the bottom end that makes your stomach jerk, and 1400 enjoy the show and dance.

As a covers band you play everything, including the music that needs energy down the bottom, turning your system up wont suddenly create the missing power down the bottom. Its not level, its impact.

To paraphrase Metallica’s Big Mick, when asked what he did when he didn't have enough sub bass, he simply said get more!

Thanks for your response Paul Johnson.

I think you definitely have a point. With several songs it is not necessary that you 'feel' the low end. But if the thud is missing in the songs that do require it, you cannot or insufficiently compensate for this with volume.

When purchasing the KS212c subs, we weighed the pros and cons and looked at what best suits our band and repertoire. We think the lows of the KS212c sounds more ' melodious' than, for example, an 18' sub. But in a larger tent with more people you may not be able to manage with more volume, but you also need to add 'umph'.

We might consider renting some 18' subs in addition to our own 4 KS212c's. I wonder whether adding one 18' sub per side is sufficient. I also don't know whether you can simply combine the KS212c's with some 18' subs without any problems. What do you think?

The result of this is of course that we will get more stage noise compared to the 'quieter' cadioid subs. We will probably also have to add in the high end.

Greetings, Roel

 

[Art Welter]

I still have the feeling that the ratio between the 4 subs and the 2 tops is not yet optimal. Adding two KW122 might solve this sufficiently?

Roel,

Adding two more subs to the four you have will add about +3.5dB level.
Doubling amount of subs would add 6dB, the equivalent change of being as loud in the back of the tent as it is halfway back with four.

If you were using the 20% larger KS118, 18" subs, they would reach about 3Hz lower (the difference between the low E and F note on a four string bass), and be around 4 dB louder.

Art

 

[Paul Johnson]

Sort of. However, the sound is totally different. No real need to go below the bottom B on a five string, but play that note on a 12” sub and an 18” sub and it sounds very, very different. I would go so far to say that 12” subs make tuning a bottom B impossible. What people tuning by ear are doing is tuning via the harmonics. That bottom B from a band limited sub is just a low noise. The 18” is more of a single tone, but play the string with a pick and try the 12” to 18” test.

A good test is michael jacksons Billy Jean track. Play it on only the subs and try to pick out what the notes are. Not the higher ones of course, but some in the sub’s range. Adding a few dB of mush is pointless.

 

[Helge A. Bentsen]

It depends. I've done 30x10m with two speakers on a stick, it was loud enough for the intended purpose (cover the dance floor).
Yesterday it was 12 Meyer Leopards over 4 2100LFC for the same area. It was a children's show and we wanted even coverage without having to blast the front rows, so we flew the mains. Plenty of headroom, the rig was just cruising. Could have gotten away with way less subs, but they are stacked 2 and 2 on dollies, so it's easier just to roll them straight in from the truck.

 

[David Brady]

Hey Roel,

Tough question! It really depends on the party tent acoustics and what kind of sound you're going for. 30x10 meters is a decent size, and with fabric, you'll have less sound reflection compared to aluminum.

Honestly, I'd lean towards the rental company's estimate (200-250 people). You want to avoid pushing your system too hard and ending up with distortion. Plus, having some headroom is always a good idea.

Maybe for bigger events, consider renting extra subs or speakers just to be safe. It's better to have too much power than not enough! Good luck with the gigs!

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Sort of. However, the sound is totally different. No real need to go below the bottom B on a five string, but play that note on a 12” sub and an 18” sub and it sounds very, very different. I would go so far to say that 12” subs make tuning a bottom B impossible. What people tuning by ear are doing is tuning via the harmonics. That bottom B from a band limited sub is just a low noise. The 18” is more of a single tone, but play the string with a pick and try the 12” to 18” test.

A good test is michael jacksons Billy Jean track. Play it on only the subs and try to pick out what the notes are. Not the higher ones of course, but some in the sub’s range. Adding a few dB of mush is pointless.

Thanks for your responses and detailed explanation (and Billy Jean tip) Paul. Much appreciated!

Greeting,

Roel

 

[Roel Elzinga]

It depends. I've done 30x10m with two speakers on a stick, it was loud enough for the intended purpose (cover the dance floor).
Yesterday it was 12 Meyer Leopards over 4 2100LFC for the same area. It was a children's show and we wanted even coverage without having to blast the front rows, so we flew the mains. Plenty of headroom, the rig was just cruising. Could have gotten away with way less subs, but they are stacked 2 and 2 on dollies, so it's easier just to roll them straight in from the truck.

Thank you for your response Helge A. Bentsen.

It is the uncertainty whether your soundset is sufficient for the event in question. Additional rental is of course always possible, but this also increases the price for the organizer. For some this will not be a problem at all, but for (smaller) organizations with less income in particular, it is attractive if you come with your own light and sound.

As you rightly point out, practice shows. But in any case, it is better if it turns out afterwards that you have taken too much sound with you than too little. You better have enough headroom.

Thank you for your practical example Helge.

Greetings,

Roel

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Hey Roel,

Tough question! It really depends on the party tent acoustics and what kind of sound you're going for. 30x10 meters is a decent size, and with fabric, you'll have less sound reflection compared to aluminum.

Honestly, I'd lean towards the rental company's estimate (200-250 people). You want to avoid pushing your system too hard and ending up with distortion. Plus, having some headroom is always a good idea.

Maybe for bigger events, consider renting extra subs or speakers just to be safe. It's better to have too much power than not enough! Good luck with the gigs!

Thank you David Bradly for your response.

I completely agree with you, you should have power left so that you can add if it is unexpectedly insufficient.

Given the various responses from the forum members, I think it is wise that we should not take the risk. We are going to rent extra sound. I'm going to consult with a sound rental company.

Thanks again David. Making music and making people happy is therapeutic and wonderful to do! Thank you!

I would also like to thank the forum members very much for their responses and input, very nice and valuable!!

Keep up the good work.

Kind regards from the Netherlands,

Roel

 

[Carl Klinkenborg]

Regardless of PA size, if one initially believes that 'X' number of subs are required (for anything larger than a pub-sized gig), 4X will be usually closer to reality!
Amplifiers having twice the power rating of the subs is a wise move too...
We've all probably heard PA systems run flat out, and it's not pretty.

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Regardless of PA size, if one initially believes that 'X' number of subs are required (for anything larger than a pub-sized gig), 4X will be usually closer to reality!
Amplifiers having twice the power rating of the subs is a wise move too...
We've all probably heard PA systems run flat out, and it's not pretty.

Thanks for your response Carl Klinkenborg.

I suspect that incorrectly estimating the required subs and tops for a gig happens quite often. Especially if it concerns a gig that is (significantly) different in terms of location and number of people compared to usual.

Yes, to avoid disappointment afterwards, you can indeed choose to take extra equipment with you so that you at least have enough subs and tops with you to prevent further problems. I don't know whether the 'calculation' you mentioned is correct in practice, but I understand what you mean.

Thanks again Carl.

Greetings,

Roel

 

[Carl Klinkenborg]

I don't know whether the 'calculation' you mentioned is correct in practice, but I understand what you mean.

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, but it's far easier to run out of bass than to run out of mid/HF!
It takes a lot of cone area and amplifier power to reproduce bass cleanly at volume in a large space or in open air.

Move a Lot of Air - GENTLY!

 

[Roel Elzinga]

Slightly tongue-in-cheek, but it's far easier to run out of bass than to run out of mid/HF!
It takes a lot of cone area and amplifier power to reproduce bass cleanly at volume in a large space or in open air.

Move a Lot of Air - GENTLY!

Thanks Carl for your addition!

Greetings,

Roel